• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Genesis Is the understanding the of Ancient Hebrews.It doesn't have to be scientific.

dougangel

Regular
Site Supporter
May 7, 2012
1,423
238
New Zealand
✟130,556.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You had said in your post " Knowing that the bible isn't perfect, doesn't take away the bible but authenticates it"
....does this mean "Christians" don't have to recognize the resurrection of Jesus Christ as a literal historical event? Knowing that the bible isn't perfect as you said clearly means the resurrection can also be myth? yes?

Clearly we assume wisdom about things by there history, context, what other scriptures say about it and what there saying. clearly the language in the creation passages are symbolic and still some of it is unexplained . There's things that don't make sense literally and there are some understanding problems with it. That is some things are un explained.

Jesus actually said he was going to die and rise again. It was even fore told in the Old Testament. It's actually told in a factual manner. There's eyewitness testimony. the Holy spirit attests to all Christians since his death that it is the truth. Many have been willing to die for that truth.
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,701
1,957
✟77,658.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Clearly we assume wisdom about things by there history, context, what other scriptures say about it and what there saying. clearly the language in the creation passages are symbolic and still some of it is unexplained . There's things that don't make sense literally and there are some understanding problems with it. That is some things are un explained.

Jesus actually said he was going to die and rise again. It was even fore told in the Old Testament. It's actually told in a factual manner. There's eyewitness testimony. the Holy spirit attests to all Christians since his death that it is the truth. Many have been willing to die for that truth.

You do know the NT authors presented the creation account as literal and historical? Paul in his letter to Timothy instructed the women to conduct themselves in a certain way based upon Eve, deception and the fall. Why would Paul instruct the women on something that wasn't real?
Paul wrote sin and death entered through one man....just like Genesis informs us. Why would Paul present something as factual based upon something you say was symbolic?

Above you said "Jesus actually said He was going to die and rise again." How do you kn0w this wasn't symbolic? The science that you speak of that you use to disqualify Genesis as literal says the resurrection of Jesus can't literally happen. How do you know where to draw the line in your imperfect bible?
 
Upvote 0

ecco

Poster
Sep 4, 2015
2,011
544
Florida
✟5,011.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
RE:
ecco said:
In keeping to the spirit of a prior post:"The Creation & Evolution Forum is a discussion and debate forum and is open to non-believers to address the similarities and differences of creation and evolution. [...]...
Lets get this straight. On this Forum Anybody can say anything. Christian or Non Christian. There's evidence of that in this post lol. You have check what there saying is correct.
There seem to be many things in the OT that Christians want to disregard and use the passages like Hebrews 8:7 to justify that. ...Etc.​
I asked AV1611VET That because I said Genesis is the understanding of God by the ancient Hebrews.

"""We'd better have that same understanding too, or we're not going to be able to worship Him correctly."""

I disagree that we should have the same understanding of an Ancient Hebrew. Where modern Christians. We have a lot more scripture at our disposal and a new promise. Av1611vet is a YEC literalist fundamental Christian. We have quite different interpretations of the bible.
I would greatly appreciate it if you did not put things in my quote box that I did not say. It doesn't matter if you put your comments in red or whatever. The only thing that belongs in my quote box is things I said, they way I said them. I did not say:
Lets get this straight. On this Forum Anybody can say anything. Christian or Non Christian. There's evidence of that in this post lol. You have check what there saying is correct.
 
Upvote 0

dougangel

Regular
Site Supporter
May 7, 2012
1,423
238
New Zealand
✟130,556.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You do know the NT authors presented the creation account as literal and historical? Paul in his letter to Timothy instructed the women to conduct themselves in a certain way based upon Eve, deception and the fall. Why would Paul instruct the women on something that wasn't real?
Paul wrote sin and death entered through one man....just like Genesis informs us. Why would Paul present something as factual based upon something you say was symbolic?

Above you said "Jesus actually said He was going to die and rise again." How do you kn0w this wasn't symbolic? The science that you speak of that you use to disqualify Genesis as literal says the resurrection of Jesus can't literally happen. How do you know where to draw the line in your imperfect bible?

That's a very controversial piece of scripture and has been highly debated in churches and most modern church 1st world cultures don't actually follow it. Saying woman should just do child bearing and be in silent submission in church not wearing make up or expensive hair dos. Why are you bringing real hard scriptures up like that in a non Christian thread I don't know. Honestly that's Pauls personal preference for running his group of churches in his time in history. And yes he is referencing a real ancient piece of cultural OT scripture. I have to consider that as a modern Christian.
 
Upvote 0

dougangel

Regular
Site Supporter
May 7, 2012
1,423
238
New Zealand
✟130,556.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You do know the NT authors presented the creation account as literal and historical? Paul in his letter to Timothy instructed the women to conduct themselves in a certain way based upon Eve, deception and the fall. Why would Paul instruct the women on something that wasn't real?
Paul wrote sin and death entered through one man....just like Genesis informs us. Why would Paul present something as factual based upon something you say was symbolic?

Above you said "Jesus actually said He was going to die and rise again." How do you kn0w this wasn't symbolic? The science that you speak of that you use to disqualify Genesis as literal says the resurrection of Jesus can't literally happen. How do you know where to draw the line in your imperfect bible?

Ok well I see you are a Christian . Lets see what where dealing with here. Do you go to a church where women are not allowed to speak in the church and do you practice that ?
 
Upvote 0

AlexDTX

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
4,191
2,817
✟351,434.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Genesis is the understanding of God by the ancient Hebrews. It's there oral tradition handed down and finally made into a book by Moses and his advisors. It's ancient man's understanding of God and the building of a religion. It does look like some of the early stories are taken from Sumerian and Egyptians sources adding Hebrew philosophy to them. Abraham was a Sumerian. They were building there understanding of God and not all of it is perfect or explainable. It evolved from out door animal sacrifices to a tent temple to a building temple. The Hebrews weren't perfect and there understanding of God at times isn't perfect. But at the time in the known world they recognised more of the truth of God. So God revealed himself more to them and of course this brought the saviour Jesus through them. Knowing that the bible isn't perfect, doesn't take away the bible but authenticates it.
If you believe what you are saying, I think you are foolish in you understanding. If you don't believe it and are tempting non-Christians, you seem to be using a bait and switch tactic. Either way, I think you thread is a mistake.
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,701
1,957
✟77,658.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
That's a very controversial piece of scripture and has been highly debated in churches and most modern church 1st world cultures don't actually follow it. Saying woman should just do child bearing and be in silent submission in church not wearing make up or expensive hair dos. Why are you bringing real hard scriptures up like that in a non Christian thread I don't know. Honestly that's Pauls personal preference for running his group of churches in his time in history. And yes he is referencing a real ancient piece of cultural OT scripture. I have to consider that as a modern Christian.

I'm not really interested in the controversial scripture.....I'm concerned about what it is based upon. Whether or not we understand the verse in full or partial the question still is....would Paul base instruction on a myth?
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,701
1,957
✟77,658.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Ok well I see you are a Christian . Lets see what where dealing with here. Do you go to a church where women are not allowed to speak in the church and do you practice that ?

As I said in the previous post, I'm not concerned with the controversy in this thread. If you want to discuss the controversy then please start another thread. This issue is about whether Paul based his instruction on myth or a literal historical event.
 
Upvote 0

dougangel

Regular
Site Supporter
May 7, 2012
1,423
238
New Zealand
✟130,556.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I'm not really interested in the controversial scripture.....I'm concerned about what it is based upon. Whether or not we understand the verse in full or partial the question still is....would Paul base instruction on a myth?
Well that's convenient for you isn't it. Because anyone who doesn't practice what Paul said literally. Isn't taking those scriptures literally.
I have no problem taking instruction from a women. Hence I'm on this website.
 
Upvote 0

dougangel

Regular
Site Supporter
May 7, 2012
1,423
238
New Zealand
✟130,556.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
As I said in the previous post, I'm not concerned with the controversy in this thread. If you want to discuss the controversy then please start another thread. This issue is about whether Paul based his instruction on myth or a literal historical event.

Ok well lets take a look at this. First of all I believe those scriptures are from God and they are sacred. They teach spiritual truths. They have been canonised. Are the creation scriptures a literal historical event or are they a myth ?
(I prefer to say teaching parables)
lets have a look at some of it:

This is from the NIV scholars have indented this and put quotation marks round it. That's what they do if they think it's not literal.

Genesis 3
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

16 To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labour you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

Well I feel sorry for the animal, the snake, why is he cursed more than other animals ?
The worm slithers was the worm cursed also ?
What about the other animals closed to the ground are they eating dust also ?
I thought snakes were an important part of the ecosystem.
The snakes not really a snake is he ? He's symbolically Satan isn't he ?

What does verse 15 mean ?
There's strife between Woman and the snake. Eventually the woman's offspring will crush the snake's head. (man will triumph over evil) But the snake will strike the male offspring's heel (could this be symbolic of Christ?)
In the final analysis, we must say that the complete biblical picture does reveal a difference in the significance of the terms. Christ’s death for human sin was, in effect, a wound rendered by Satan. But the Lord’s resurrection, exaltation, and final victory will destroy the devil’s revolting efforts (Rom. 8:20-21; 1 Cor. 15:26; Col. 2:15; Heb. 2:14; 1 Jn. 3:8; Rev. 20:10).
This is wonderful isn't it. It's symbolising Christ all that time ago when it was written.
Your serious your saying it's not a parable ?
Paul is referencing a parable !!!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: RedPonyDriver
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,701
1,957
✟77,658.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Well that's convenient for you isn't it. Because anyone who doesn't practice what Paul said literally. Isn't taking those scriptures literally.
I have no problem taking instruction from a women. Hence I'm on this website.

Pauls instruction...no matter what they might be have nothing to do with this discussion. The discussion is why would Paul base them on a myth. Can you address that....if you believe Genesis to be a myth rather than literal and historical.
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,701
1,957
✟77,658.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Ok well lets take a look at this. First of all I believe those scriptures are from God and they are sacred. They teach spiritual truths. They have been canonised. Are the creation scriptures a literal historical event or are they a myth ?
(I prefer to say teaching parables)
lets have a look at some of it:

This is from the NIV scholars have indented this and put quotation marks round it. That's what they do if they think it's not literal.

Genesis 3
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

16 To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labour you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

Well I feel sorry for the animal, the snake, why is he cursed more than other animals ?
The worm slithers was the worm cursed also ?
What about the other animals closed to the ground are they eating dust also ?
I thought snakes were an important part of the ecosystem.
The snakes not really a snake is he ? He's symbolically Satan isn't he ?

What does verse 15 mean ?
There's strife between Woman and the snake. Eventually the woman's offspring will crush the snake's head. (man will triumph over evil) But the snake will strike the male offspring's heel (could this be symbolic of Christ?)
In the final analysis, we must say that the complete biblical picture does reveal a difference in the significance of the terms. Christ’s death for human sin was, in effect, a wound rendered by Satan. But the Lord’s resurrection, exaltation, and final victory will destroy the devil’s revolting efforts (Rom. 8:20-21; 1 Cor. 15:26; Col. 2:15; Heb. 2:14; 1 Jn. 3:8; Rev. 20:10).
This is wonderful isn't it. It's symbolising Christ all that time ago when it was written.
Your serious your saying it's not a parable ?
Paul is referencing a parable !!!!
Unless you're prepared to point out the symbolism in the entire first two chapters I would watch out for what you are claiming. There is countless examples of where symbolism is presented in the bible along with the historical literal narrative. I think the killing of the innocent animal for the covering of Adam and Eve was literal and historical....and ALSO had a symbolic meaning pointing to the future when Christ Jesus the innocent would die and also be out covering.

Was the snake literal and historical?
2 Cor 11:3 says.....But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
Paul says Eve was deceived by the serpent. Are you a so-called bible believing Christian telling me Paul was wrong? There was no serpent that deceived eve? Was he saying hey guys....I'm going to base what I say next on something that really didn't happen.

Concerning parables....ever see one in the bible that wasn't based upon actual events or events that could not happen?
 
Upvote 0

dougangel

Regular
Site Supporter
May 7, 2012
1,423
238
New Zealand
✟130,556.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Unless you're prepared to point out the symbolism in the entire first two chapters I would watch out for what you are claiming. There is countless examples of where symbolism is presented in the bible along with the historical literal narrative. I think the killing of the innocent animal for the covering of Adam and Eve was literal and historical....and ALSO had a symbolic meaning pointing to the future when Christ Jesus the innocent would die and also be out covering.

Was the snake literal and historical?
2 Cor 11:3 says.....But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
Paul says Eve was deceived by the serpent. Are you a so-called bible believing Christian telling me Paul was wrong? There was no serpent that deceived eve? Was he saying hey guys....I'm going to base what I say next on something that really didn't happen.

Concerning parables....ever see one in the bible that wasn't based upon actual events or events that could not happen
Well I feel sorry for the animal, the snake, why is he cursed more than other animals ?
The worm slithers was the worm cursed also ?
What about the other animals closed to the ground are they eating dust also ?
I thought snakes were an important part of the ecosystem.
The snakes not really a snake is he ? He's symbolically Satan isn't he ?

You haven't answered any of my Questions. Also what is your interpretation of Genesis 3:15 ?
I have to go for a few hours but I do have answers for what you said.
 
Upvote 0

dougangel

Regular
Site Supporter
May 7, 2012
1,423
238
New Zealand
✟130,556.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Unless you're prepared to point out the symbolism in the entire first two chapters I would watch out for what you are claiming. There is countless examples of where symbolism is presented in the bible along with the historical literal narrative. I think the killing of the innocent animal for the covering of Adam and Eve was literal and historical....and ALSO had a symbolic meaning pointing to the future when Christ Jesus the innocent would die and also be out covering.

Says who. I won't be doing that. I have pointed out symbolism in chapter 3 and you have totally ignored it.

2 Cor 11:3 says.....But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
Paul says Eve was deceived by the serpent. Are you a so-called bible believing Christian telling me Paul was wrong? There was no serpent that deceived eve? Was he saying hey guys....I'm going to base what I say next on something that really didn't happen.

I've already said in this post that New testament writers referenced the old testament. I agree with Paul mankind was deceived by Satan and that's why we have evil in the world and people get lead astray. That is the point of what he said.

Concerning parables....ever see one in the bible that wasn't based upon actual events or events that could not happen?

Mathew 5:27
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Self mutilation.
But this is a technique of teaching in old Hebrew oral tradition. Using shock in stories to illustrate a spiritual point and make the hearer remember it.

Parables are stories to illustrate a teaching point. Most of them aren't literal.
 
Upvote 0

dougangel

Regular
Site Supporter
May 7, 2012
1,423
238
New Zealand
✟130,556.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Pauls instruction...no matter what they might be have nothing to do with this discussion. The discussion is why would Paul base them on a myth. Can you address that....if you believe Genesis to be a myth rather than literal and historical.

The snakes Satan ???? Is that literal or non literal.
 
Upvote 0