Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Believers and unbelievers don't produce giants
And, if they do produce a baby with giantism, s/he will likely die very early, and live a painful life in terms of the fragility of the body under such weight.
They certainly won't be 9ft warriors champions who win battles and wield weapons (with armor,) or 11ft kings. And, unbelievers and believers wont produce four different masses of four different races of these giants.
I really try to avoid the discussion. It's a curious verse...and as a babe in Christ in the late 80's I believed it was angels inbreeding with women.
After really studying it much later I tend to agree it's simply belivers intermarrying with unbelievers.
Anyway the problem comes in understanding the Hebrew "ben elohiym".
Actually it doesn't. The fact that I try to avoid it doesn't mean I didn't study it.That line of thinking leaves many questions unanswered. But we can agree to disagree. God Bless
Actually it doesn't. The fact that I try to avoid it doesn't mean I didn't study it.
It leads to nonsensical ideas like women and angels intermarrying and reproducing and creating superhumans.
And to them who seemingly know everything to say that angels cannot procreate with humans, to produce an offspring which is not purely a human, we can look at the power that Pharaoh's two occultists had when they threw down their sticks and they became serpents.Yet,that's exactly what happened......
And to them who seemingly know everything to say that angels cannot procreate with humans, to produce an offspring which is not purely a human, we can look at the power that Pharaoh's two occultists had when they threw down their sticks and they became serpents.
I agree with Ebed on this, I don't believe theirs enough scripture to clarify exactly what and/or created those "giants" wether Angels interbreeding or a term for a "group" of people. It's one of the passages that can lead to many ideas, good and far fetched. Desire and curiosity make me want to understand it properly, though the lack of clarity it seems better to not read into it and trust moses and david killed the last of them Josh 13:12; 2 Sam 21:22.
Plenty of scripture to know what's being said........
23. "THE SONS OF GOD" IN GEN. 6:2, 4.
It is only by the Divine specific act of creation that any created being can be called "a son of God". For that which is "born of the flesh is flesh". God is spirit, and that which is "born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6). Hence Adam is called a "son of God" in Luke 3:38. Those "in Christ" having "the new nature" which is by the direct creation of God (2Cor. 5:17. Eph. 2:10) can be, and are called "sons of God" (John 1:13. Rom. 8:14, 15. 1John 3:1). (*1)
This is why angels are called "sons of God" in every other place where the expression is used in the Old Testament. Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Ps. 29:1; 89:6. Dan. 3:25 (no art.). (*2) We have no authority or right to take the expression in Gen. 6:2, 4 in any other sense. Moreover, in Gen. 6:2 the Sept. renders it "angels". Angels are called "spirits" (Ps. 104:4. Heb. 1:7, 14), for spirits are created by God.
That there was a fall of the angels is certain from Jude 6.
This irruption of fallen angels was Satan's first attempt to prevent the coming of the Seed of the woman foretold in gen. 3:15. If this could be accomplished, God's Word would have failed, and his own doom would be averted.
- The nature of their fall is clearly stated in the same verse. They left their own oiketerion. This word occurs only in 2Cor. 5:2 and Jude 6, where it is used of the spiritual (or resurrection) body.
- The nature of their sin is stated to be "in like manner" to that of the subsequent sins of Sodom and Gomorrha, Jude 7.
- The time of their fall is given as having taken place "in the days of Noah" (1Pet. 3:20. 2Pet. 2:7), though there may have been a prior fall which caused the end of "the world that then was" (Gen. 1:1, 2. 2Pet. 3:6).
- For this sin they are "reserved unto judgment", 2Pet. 2:4, and are "in prison", 1Pet. 3:19.
- Their progeny, called Nephilim (translated "giants"), were monsters of iniquity; and, being superhuman in size and character, had to be destroyed (see Ap. 25). This was the one and only object of the Flood.
- Only Noah and his family had preserved their pedigree pure from Adam (Gen. 6:9, see note). All the rest had become "corrupt" (shachath) destroyed [as Adamites]. the only remedy was to destroy it (de facto), as it had become destroyed (de jure). (It is the same word in v. 17 as in vv. 11, 12.) See further under Ap. 25 on the Nephilim.
As soon as it was made known that the Seed of the woman was to come through ABRAHAM, there must have been another irruption, as recorded in Gen. 6:4, "and also after that" (i.e. after the days of Noah, more than 500 years after the first irruption). The aim of the enemy was to occupy Canaan in advance of Abraham, and so to contest its occupation by his seed. For, when Abraham entered Canaan, we read (Gen. 12:6) "the Canaanite was then (i.e. already) in the land."
In the same chapter (Gen. 12:10-20) we see Satan's next attempt to interfere with Abraham's seed, and frustrate the purpose of God that it should be in "Isaac". This attempt was repeated in 20:1-18.
This great conflict may be seen throughout the Bible, and it forms a great and important subject of Biblical study. In each case the human instrument had his own personal interest to serve, while Satan had his own great object in view. Hence God had, in each case, to interfere and avert the evil and the danger, of which his servants and people were wholly ignorant. The following assaults of the great Enemy stand out prominently :--
The irruption of "the fallen angels" ("sons of God") was the first attempt; and was directed against the whole human race.
- The destruction of the chosen family by famine, Gen. 50:20.
- The destruction of the male line in Israel, Ex. 1:10, 15, &c. Cp. Ex. 2:5. Heb. 11:23.
- The destruction of the whole nation in Pharaoh's pursuit, Ex. 14.
- After David's line was singled out (2Sam. 7), that was the next selected for assault. Satan's first assault was in the union of Jehoram and Athaliah by Jehoshaphat, notwithstanding 2Chron. 17:1. Jehoram killed off all his brothers (2Chron. 21:4).
- The Arabians slew all his children, except Ahaziah (2Chron. 21:17; 22:1).
- When Ahaziah died, Athaliah killed "all the seed royal" (2Chron. 22:10). the babe Joash alone was rescued; and, for six years, the faithfulness of Jehovah's word was at stake (2Chron. 23:3).
- Hezekiah was childless, when a double assault was made by the King of Assyria and the King of Terrors (Isa. 36:1; 38:1). God's faithfulness was appealed to and relied on (Ps. 136).
- In Captivity, Haman was used to attempt the destruction of the whole nation (Est. 3:6, 12, 13. Cp. 6:1).
- Joseph's fear was worked on (Matt. 1:18-20). Notwithstanding the fact that he was "a just man", and kept the Law, he did not wish to have Mary stoned to death (Deut. 24:1); hence Joseph determined to divorce her. But God intervened : "Fear not".
- Herod sought the young Child's life (Matt. 2).
- At the Temptation, "Cast Thyself down" was Satan's temptation.
- At Nazareth, again (Luke 4), there was another attempt to cast Him down and destroy Him.
- The two storms on the Lake were other attempts.
- At length the cross was reached, and the sepulcher closed; the watch set; and the stone sealed. But "God raised Him from the dead." And now, like another Joash, He is seated and expecting (Heb. 10:12, 13), hidden in the house of God on high; and the members of "the one body" are hidden there "in Him" (Col. 3:1-3), like another Jehoshaba; and going forth to witness of His coming, like another Jehoiada (2Chron. 23:3).
- When Abraham was called, then he and his seed were attacked.
- When David was enthroned, then the royal line were attacked.
- And when "the Seed of the woman" Himself came, then the storm burst upon Him.
(*1) The word "offspring" in Acts 17:28 is quite different. It is genos, which means merely kin or kind, our genus as being originated by God.
(*2) In Hos. 1:10, it is not beni-ha-Elohim, as here, but beni-el-chai.
25. THE NEPHILIM, OR "GIANTS"
Of GEN. 6, &c.
The progeny of the fallen angels with the daughters of Adam (see notes on Gen. 6, and Ap. 23) are called in Gen. 6, Ne-phil-im, which means fallen ones (from naphal, to fall). What these beings were can be gathered only from Scripture. They were evidently great in size, as well as great in wickedness. They were superhuman, abnormal beings; and their destruction was necessary for the preservation of the human race, and for the faithfulness of Jehovah's Word (Gen. 3:15).
This was why the Flood was brought "upon the world of the ungodly" (2Pet. 2:5) as prophesied by Enoch (Jude 14).
But we read of the Nephilim again in Num. 13:33 : "there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, which come of the Nephilim". How, it may be asked, could this be, if they were all destroyed in the Flood? The answer is contained in Gen. 6:4, where we read : "There were Nephilim in the earth in those days (i.e. in the days of Noah); and also AFTER THAT, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became [the] mighty men (Heb. gibbor, the heroes) which were of old, men of renown" (lit. men of the name, i.e. who got a name and were renowned for their ungodliness).
So that "after that", i.e. after the Flood, there was a second irruption of these fallen angels, evidently smaller in number and more limited in area, for they were for the most part confined to Canaan, and were in fact known as "the nations of Canaan". It was for the destruction of these, that the sword of Israel was necessary, as the Flood had been before.
As to the date of this second irruption, it was evidently soon after it became known that the seed was to come through Abraham; for, when he came out from Haran (Gen. 12:6) and entered Canaan, the significant fact is stated : "The Canaanite was then (i.e. already) in the land." And in Gen. 14:5 they were already known as "Raphain" and Emim", and had established themselves at Asteroth Karnaim and Shaven Kiriathaim.
In ch. 15:18-21 they are enumerated and named among Canaanite Peoples : "Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, and the Amorites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites" (Gen. 15:19-21; cp. Ex. 3:8, 17; 23:23. Deut. 7; 20:17. Josh. 12:8).
These were to be cut off, and driven out, and utterly destroyed (Deut. 20:17. Josh. 3:10). But Israel failed in this (Josh. 13:13; 15:63; 16:10; 17:18. Judg. 1:19, 20, 28, 29, 30-36; 2:1-5; 3:1-7); and we known not how many got away to other countries to escape the general destruction. If this were recognized it would go far to solve many problems connected with Anthropology.
As to their other names, they were called Anakim, from on Anak which came of the Nephilim (Num. 13:23), and Rephaim, from Rapha, another notable one among them. From Deut. 2:10, they were known by some as Emim, and Horim, and Zamzummim (v. 20, 21) and Avim, &c.
As Rephaim they were well known, and are often mentioned : but, unfortunately, instead of this, their proper name, being preserved, it is variously translated as "dead", "deceased", or "giants". These Rephaim are to have no resurrection. This fact is stated in Isa. 26:14 (where the proper name is rendered "deceased," and v. 19, where it is rendered "the dead"). It is rendered "dead" seven times (Job 26:5. Ps. 88:10. Prov. 2:18; 9:18; 21:16. Isa. 14:8; 26:19). It is rendered "deceased" in Isa. 26:14.
It is retained as a proper name "Rephaim" ten times (two being in the margin). Gen. 14:5; 15:20. Josh. 12:15 (marg.). 2Sam. 5:18, 22; 23:13.& b31 nbsp; 1Chron. 11:15; 14:9; 20:4 (marg.). Isa. 17:5. In all other places it is rendered "giants", Gen. 6:4; Num. 23:33, where it is Nephilim; and Job 16:14, where it is gibbor (Ap. 14. iv). By reading all these passages the Bible student may know all that can be known about these beings.
It is certain that the second irruption took place before Gen. 14, for there the Rephaim were mixed up with the five nations or peoples, which included Sodom and Gomorrha, and were defeated by the four kings under Chedorlaomer. Their principal locality was evidently "Ashtaroth Karnaim"; while the Emim were in the plain of Kiriathaim (Gen. 14:5).
Anak was a noted descendant of the Nephilim; and Rapha was another, giving their names respectively to different clans. Anak's father was Arba, the original builder of Hebron (Gen. 35:27. Josh. 15:13; 21:11); and this Palestine branch of the Anakim was not called Arbahim after him, but Anakim after Anak. They were great, mighty, and tall (Deut. 2:10, 11, 21, 22, 23; 9:2), evidently inspiring the ten spies with great fear (Num. 13:33). Og king of Bashan is described in Deut. 3:11.
Their strength is seen in "the giant cities of Bashan" to-day; and we know not how far they may have been utilized by Egypt in the construction of buildings, which is still an unsolved problem. Arba was rebuilt by the Khabiri or confederates seven years before Zoan was built by the Egyptian Pharoahs of the nineteenth dynasty. See note on Num. 13:22.
If these Nephilim, and their branch of Rephaim, were associated with Egypt, we have an explanation of the problem which has for ages perplexed all engineers, as to how those huge stones and monuments were brought together. Why not in Egypt as well as in "the giant cities of Bashan" which exist, as such, to this day?
Moreover, we have in these mighty men, the "men of renown," the explanation of the origin of the Greek mythology. That mythology was no mere invention of the human brain, but it grew out of the traditions, and memories, and legends of the doings of that mighty race of beings; and was gradually evolved out of the "heroes" of Gen. 6:4. The fact that they were supernatural in their origin formed an easy step to their being regarded as the demi-gods of the Greeks.
Thus the Babylonian "Creation Tablets", the Egyptian "Book of the dead", the Greek mythology, and heathen Cosmogonies, which by some are set on an equality with Scripture, or by others adduced in support of it, are all the corruption and perversion of primitive truths, distorted in proportion as their origin was forgotten, and their memories faded away.
The Bible talk about angels who sinned.I agree with Ebed on this, I don't believe theirs enough scripture to clarify exactly what and/or created those "giants" wether Angels interbreeding or a term for a "group" of people. It's one of the passages that can lead to many ideas, good and far fetched.
I agree with Ebed on this, I don't believe theirs enough scripture to clarify exactly what and/or created those "giants" wether Angels interbreeding or a term for a "group" of people. It's one of the passages that can lead to many ideas, good and far fetched. Desire and curiosity make me want to understand it properly, though the lack of clarity it seems better to not read into it and trust moses and david killed the last of them Josh 13:12; 2 Sam 21:22.
I believe there is far too much scripture on this subject to ignore.
Though the only issue thats kept me from going with the ideal that they are fallen angels was why did they take wives, their already "against" God, why honor the commandment of not committing adultery (in other words why get married, just fornicate). Lest not forget also it is God who opens and closes wombs- sarah, Rachel,Leah, Elizabeth, Mary: so if it was "fallen angel" genetic inheritance then God himself allowed it and coded it. As well as its God who creates life and allows one to live- deuteronomy 8:3 matt 4:4.
I just want to address a couple of points in your post n2thelight and CryOfALion covered most of it thoroughly. “then God himself allowed it and coded it” I believe that God allowed it only in the fact that he did not prevent it from happening. Did God allow the holocaust? He did not sanction or cause it to happen but he does not intervene in or prevent many acts of evil. We are still in a fallen world and until He comes and restores this creation many unholy and evil events will continue to take place.
So why would God allow the angels He's thrown out to marry and procreate knowing their going to G just as evil and insubordinate. One would think then lucifer himself had billions of offspring just to enlarge his "army" and help his rebellion against our God and Lord. To me it seems more fitting of a term used for a sect of people purposely and vigorously serving evil- I.e the myans. Then again I am comfortable knowing that this portion of scripture will remain an enigma to me until I'm face to face with our Lord and He reveals all to us.
“ One would think then lucifer himself had billions of offspring just to enlarge his "army" and help his rebellion against our God and Lord.” I do not believe satan was simply tring to increase his numbers with this plan. I’m convinced its purpose was a failed attempt to corrupt the “seed of woman” to prevent the Savior of the world from being born.
As for pharaohs occultists- power can just G given, it does not need to come from genetics. Moses was given the same ability to create a serpent, part the Red Sea, have and remove leprosy. Rev 13:2 the dragon gives the beast his power, throne and great authority- no mentioning of needing a genetic inheritance. I think the "transfer" is similar to what satan tempted our Lord with as well (wether or not he was being honest) matt 4:8, no need for genetics just a sworn oath or acceptance to serve the wrong master.
I just want to address a couple of points in your post n2thelight and CryOfALion covered most of it thoroughly. “then God himself allowed it and coded it” I believe that God allowed it only in the fact that he did not prevent it from happening. Did God allow the holocaust? He did not sanction or cause it to happen but he does not intervene in or prevent many acts of evil. We are still in a fallen world and until He comes and restores this creation many unholy and evil events will continue to take place.
I do not believe satan was simply tring to increase his numbers with this plan. I’m convinced its purpose was a failed attempt to corrupt the “seed of woman” to prevent the Savior of the world from being born.
In other references in the Old Testament “ the sons of God” refer to angels, why should we believe “the sons of God in Genesis 6 would be different?
Recall that "they are not all Israel which are of Israel" (Romans 9:6). Those that have followed God into the truth of salvation in his only begotten son Jesus Christ are no longer Jews or Gentiles -- they are now the sons of God. Those sons are not in a separate construct called the "church" or the "bride" or some other term lifted out of the context of scripture. They are the Remnant of Israel -- a spiritual body of believers that "doeth truth [and] cometh to the light, that his deeds may be manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:21).Like I first said, I really do not see enough clarity to dismiss the aspect of gen 6 referring to men nor angels as the "sons of God". Theirs way to many good points for both sides of the debate, and gratefully non impacting on our salvation.
The Bible talk about angels who sinned.
2 Peter 2:4
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;
Jude 1:6 (KJV)
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
This binding in "chains" is a past tense judgment that indicates an unspecified portion of the fallen angels committed such a heinous sin that God felt compelled to imprison them "before the time." (Mat 8:29) This could only refer to the ungodly mixing of the two branches of creation -- angels and the daughters of men..That sums it up right there,or should anyway.....They left what and came where...........
It was these Jude passages, and the Peter 2 passages, that summed it up for me. People always ask for further biblical references, but when you give them further more clearer biblical reference they will still disagree. They just don't want to let go of their biblical paradigm belief, which is understandable to me. I've been debating this subect for a long time and at peace with people not agreeing with me.That sums it up right there,or should anyway.....They left what and came where...........
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?