Genesis 1 is to be taken literaly - it is the only logical option

[yeshuaslavejeff]

There is no biblical record of Satan falling and destroying the earth to the point it became formless and void.

Wasn't this a 'tradition' introduced, then forgotten that it was 'introduced' from other pagan gods or religions ?

 

[Copperhead]

The context here is the destruction of Judah. The comparism is to what Judah would become like, that is likend to the state of the earth prior to God finishing creation.

Really? When was Judah without form and void and at the same time the heavens had no light as described in...

Jeremiah 4:23-26 (NKJV) I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void;
And the heavens, they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled,
And all the hills moved back and forth.
25 I beheld, and indeed there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were broken down
At the presence of the Lord,
By His fierce anger.

It is buried in the passage of ransacking of Judah, but there is no way it can be talking of Judah in particular. It is very similar to the passage of...

Jeremiah 17:13 (NKJV) O Lord, the hope of Israel,
All who forsake You shall be ashamed.
"Those who depart from Me
Shall be written in the earth,
Because they have forsaken the Lord,
The fountain of living waters.

Which is buried in a passage talking about Judah's sin in general, but Verse 13 is a prophecy of the specific events in John 8 regarding those that brought the woman condemn of adultery before Yeshua.

 

[-57]

Wasn't this a 'tradition' introduced, then forgotten that it was 'introduced' from other pagan gods or religions ?

I'm not sure of what the history behind that unsupported theology is.

 

[-57]

Really? When was Judah without form and void and at the same time the heavens had no light as described in...

Judan wasn't. As I've said....God is saying Judah would one day be likened to the formless and void earth at creation.

 

[Copperhead]

Judan wasn't. As I've said....God is saying Judah would one day be likened to the formless and void earth at creation.

while I would agree that one day at the end of the millennial reign the earth will be burned up and a new earth will be created, there is only one time that the present earth has or will be without form and void, Tohu va Bohu, and the heavens had no light, and that was at Genesis 1:2.

we will just have to disagree on what Jere was writing about.

 

[-57]

while I would agree that one day at the end of the millennial reign the earth will be burned up and a new earth will be created, there is only one time that the present earth has or will be without form and void, Tohu va Bohu, and the heavens had no light, and that was at Genesis 1:2.

we will just have to disagree on what Jere was writing about.

You've been presenting backfitted theology. That is a theology that isn't supported in the bible.
For example, the devil destroying the earth and making it formless and void isn't in the bible.

Speculation rules the day for this type of re-creation theology.

Problems are introduced when one shifts the argument to what we see in the rocks....fossils. The Gap camp wants to tell us the fossils are million upon millions of years old...left over from the "original" earth...failing to realize during the time of Noah there was a world wide flood that would have buried animals in the flood deposit strata we see all over the earth.

 

[Copperhead]

And you sir are twisting what I wrote. I never said Satan made the earth without form and void, only that the Hebrew text of Genesis 1:2 said it became that way, and Jeremiah 4 says it became that way from Yahweh’s anger. I only stated that this all suggests the angelic fall is a distinct possibility.

And I have studied enough geology to know that petrified wood, layered sediment deposition, etc occurs rapidly in a matter of days and weeks due to catastrophic events. I am more convinced than ever the fossils and other evidences we find were from the Noahic flood event. The Mt St Helens volcano eruption of 1980 disproved the standard theories and models. Much to the chagrin of the evolutionists.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

And you sir are twisting what I wrote. I never said Satan made the earth without form and void, only that the Hebrew text of Genesis 1:2 said it became that way, and Jeremiah 4 says it became that way from Yahweh’s anger. I only stated that this all suggests the angelic fall is a distinct possibility.

This prompted a very new thought, I hope for good: Remember the story of the potter. He makes the pots as He Likes, and if one is cracked, He can remake it or toss it in the scrap heap...... Nothing wrong with the potter, just with the pot.

 

[-57]

And you sir are twisting what I wrote. I never said Satan made the earth without form and void, only that the Hebrew text of Genesis 1:2 said it became that way, and Jeremiah 4 says it became that way from Yahweh’s anger. I only stated that this all suggests the angelic fall is a distinct possibility.

And I have studied enough geology to know that petrified wood, layered sediment deposition, etc occurs rapidly in a matter of days and weeks due to catastrophic events. I am more convinced than ever the fossils and other evidences we find were from the Noahic flood event. The Mt St Helens volcano eruption of 1980 disproved the standard theories and models. Much to the chagrin of the evolutionists.

We're probably more on the same page then off.

 

[Palmfever]

Your argument is wrong.

Yes, Genesis describes the separation of day and night. BUT there cannot be morning and evening until the Earth is orbiting around the Sun, and also spinning on its own axis. This did not exist in the first days of Genesis, directly as described by the text.

Therefore, if you adopt literalism then you are forced to believe that God does not know what 'day' means, or that He doea not understand 'morning and night'.

I prefer to believe that God has an excellent knowledge of astronomy and physics. And so the problem is with a small group of religious believers who try to force literalism on a text that was written 1000's of years ago.

True, the sun and moon were made for days and seasons on the forth day. God was the light prior to that and will be also in heaven as there will be no sun. The fifth day would then be the first earth day and depending on where you are located it would vary. At the North and South Poles during the winter, a single night can last up to six months, which is known as a “polar night”. During the summer, the poles will experience what is called a “midnight sun”, where a day lasts a full 24 hours. So really, days are not as simple as we like to imagine. But compared to the other planets in the Solar System, time management is still easier here on Earth.

• Mercury — 84.450 minutes / 807,5 hours / 58,67 days — 87,97 days
• Venus — 349.920 minutes / 5832 hours / 243 days — 224,65 days
• Earth — 1440 minutes / 24 hours — 365,26 days
• Mars — 1480 minutes / 24,67 hours — 687 days / 1,88 years
• Jupiter — 596 minutes / 9,93 hours — 4300 days / 11,86 years
• Saturn — 642 minutes / 10,7 hours — 10.832 days / 29,68 years
• Uranus — 1034 minutes / 17,23 hours — 31.000 days / 84,93 years
• Neptune — 966 minutes / 16,1 hours — 60.200 days / 164,9 years

Notice in this time frame, Genesis 1:16-19 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. He made the stars also, not just our star. They were made for what? “for seasons, and for days, and years.

• 
  If we look at chapter 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof thou shalt surely die. Same word. Yet they lived for centuries after this.
  
  The KJV translates Strong's H3117 in the following manner: day (2,008x), time (64x), chronicles (with H1697) (37x), daily (44x), ever (18x), year (14x), continually (10x), when (10x), as (10x), while (8x), full (8x), always (4x), whole (4x), alway (4x), miscellaneous (44x).
  
  
  

 

[BobRyan]

True, the sun and moon were made for days and seasons on the forth day. God was the light prior to that and will be also in heaven as there will be no sun. The fifth day would then be the first earth day and depending on where you are located it would vary. At the North and South Poles during the winter, a single night can last up to six months, which is known as a “polar night”. During the summer, the poles will experience what is called a “midnight sun”, where a day lasts a full 24 hours. So really, days are not as simple as we like to imagine. But compared to the other planets in the Solar System, time management is still easier here on Earth.

• Mercury — 84.450 minutes / 807,5 hours / 58,67 days — 87,97 days
• Venus — 349.920 minutes / 5832 hours / 243 days — 224,65 days
• Earth — 1440 minutes / 24 hours — 365,26 days
• Mars — 1480 minutes / 24,67 hours — 687 days / 1,88 years
• Jupiter — 596 minutes / 9,93 hours — 4300 days / 11,86 years
• Saturn — 642 minutes / 10,7 hours — 10.832 days / 29,68 years
• Uranus — 1034 minutes / 17,23 hours — 31.000 days / 84,93 years
• Neptune — 966 minutes / 16,1 hours — 60.200 days / 164,9 years

Notice in this time frame, Genesis 1:16-19 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. He made the stars also, not just our star. They were made for what? “for seasons, and for days, and years.

• 
  If we look at chapter 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof thou shalt surely die. Same word. Yet they lived for centuries after this.
  
  The KJV translates Strong's H3117 in the following manner: day (2,008x), time (64x), chronicles (with H1697) (37x), daily (44x), ever (18x), year (14x), continually (10x), when (10x), as (10x), while (8x), full (8x), always (4x), whole (4x), alway (4x), miscellaneous (44x).

Good points ... however notice that there is no "evening and morning" sequence for "day" where the day is not a literal 24 hour day in the Bible.

Ex 20:8-11 "six days you shall labor...for in six days the LORD made..."

 

[Palmfever]

Genesis, 1:1 “In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth.”

Creation began in the mind of God. A desire, a concept, a plan with the ultimate goal of sharing love with creatures He would make in His image for eternity. This eternity would be apart from the constraints of time which He was now implementing. Eternity is not a long, long time, it is timeless. God knew the risks of creating godlike creatures. David stated, we are fearfully and wonderfully made. (Psalm 139:14) Beings, with minds of their own. Free agents. Not all would be willing to go along with His plan, they would have their own agendas as did Satan with his rebellious faction.
From nothing He conceived, then spoke the first elements of our natural universe into the darkness. "In the beginning" is the beginning of time. Not day or light, darkness, then waters. Liquid gas, formless. Then a defined area in which to exist. Space, the expanse. "Let there be light"., He proclaimed. The advent of darkness plus this first light, constituted day one. God exists in eternity. When He visualized and created the confines of time and space, this box we call the universe He did not become subject to the constraints therein. This universe, this vehicle, this human experience is for the perfecting of the saints.

There is no darkness in God. There is in the natural universe though.
He states in Isaiah, 45:5, I am the Lord and there is no God beside me...
verse 7. "I form the light and create the darkness"

If we look at verse Genesis, 1:2, “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” The word darkness and light are clearly stated in verse 5. “And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Here in Genesis darkness is referred to as night. Evening is the transition from light to dark.
Light is defined as day. Morning is the moment of transition from dark to light.
Void, empty space was a dark vacuum. It was night then. if we wish to take this segment of scripture literally. The absence of any particulate, including light.

Void: Merriam Webster.
Empty space, emptiness, vacuum, vacant, clear…
Creation begun in a blank state of being without, an absence of substance.

Now what do we do with waters?
Strong's H4325 in the following manner: water (571x), [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] (2x), waters (with H6440) (2x), watersprings (2x), washing (1x), watercourse (with H4161) (1x), waterflood (1x), watering (1x), variant (1x).
Gas as science claims? Hydrogen, helium, Primordial Gas Clouds Reveal Glimpse of Big Bang's Aftermath | Space
Was liquid gas the waters? H2O is two gasses. Hydrogen and helium are the 2 most plentiful elements in the universe. Most often in the form of gas.

Back to verse 2; first we see nothingness, then liquid something, then light then separation of darkness from light. Then a name for the two which defined the attributes of each one.
God speaks light into existence. Verse 3. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Verse 6 addresses what is to become the second period of light; And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Firmament: râqîyaʻ, raw-kee'-ah; from H7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.
The expanse or space. A canvas on which to create a universe. To speak forth stars, planets, life forms. All that is seen or is not. Dark energy, dark matter.

Day three
Verse 9, And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Let the waters come together and form dry land.
Now we are at dry land and seas. Time to plant and prepare the land for humans. Grass, trees, fruit.
Day 4: Verse 16 God creates another aspect of a temporarily self sustaining universe in the expanse. Objects to provide the light and warmth, the energy for self perpetuating growth that He up to this point had been providing. Which He will again provide in heaven for eternity, without a sun/star.

Day 5. Earth is nearly ready for humanity. There is food being produced, now there is sunlight to keep it growing when He finishes with His work. Now for the land creatures. Then, Mankind in His image to watch over His great work prepared for humanity that he may share in a loving relationship, eternity.
I’m not arguing for evolution, I’m simply pointing out that perhaps some of what “Science has discovered by the study of creation is not so far from what may have actually happened during the act of creation.

“Whatever they can imagine, they will accomplish”. The tower of Babel/Babble.

I’m not concerned with the words evening and morning. They are transitional moments between darkness and light. Dawn is birthed in a measured process. Evening falls by degrees. Not light. Dark. Light. Dark. Every day has an evening and a morning. This is the division in verse 4. Change by degrees. “And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.”

Darkness was first. A big nothing, void even of light. The argument over the duration of a day in the first chapter of Genesis before the suns/stars is immaterial as it pertains to salvation. Those who choose to interpret them literally must accept that a “day” referred to prior to day five is a history of events, not a time frame. A brief and general account of events occurring between the changes from darkness to light. Day 1 was darkness. God said, “Let there be light,” that would be half a day if taken literally. From evening to evening constitutes the current, complete 24 hour day. There was no evening the first day, it began in darkness. It is a period of darkness and a period of light that constitutes a day. One without the other gives no reference, no pattern, simply endless night, or endless light. He does not, nor do we have to repeat, "the evening and the morning” every time a new day appears. He says it here.

At best day 5, was the day the relationship between our star and earth begun regulating natural days, seasons and years on our planet.

In Christ

We are here for a reason, to have a loving relationship with our creator for eternity. To be creatures that He can share love with. Creatures He trusts and who trust Him. He is a loving, giving Father who desires to bless His family. The details of how He created I don’t know. Perhaps in eternity I may know, but would I care or remember a world that no longer exists, awesome and beautiful though it may be. As Christ said, “I go to prepare a place for you.” While I can imagine earth and the universe, That new place, that spiritual body, I have no clue. As Paul said: “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”

 

[BobRyan]

the 7 days in genesis pertain to the creation of earth, sun and moon and all life on earth.

Genesis 1:1 is a more broad statement about God creating the entire universe.

But the 7 days are just for Earth.

God also created angels (for example) and they are not mentioned at all in Genesis 1 and 2 as being created by God at that time when Earth and all life on Earth was created. So there were other things God did before coming to Earth.

 

[BobRyan]

Your argument is wrong.

Yes, Genesis describes the separation of day and night. BUT there cannot be morning and evening until the Earth is orbiting around the Sun, and also spinning on its own axis. .

Not entirely true.

Yes the earth was spinning / rotating , and there were the waters covering the surface of the deep. That is the start point for the creation account. And with no sun there was darkness... but then God said "let there be light" .

And the "source" of the light could be anything -- and as along as it stays on one side of the planet -- then the same rotating planet results in evening and morning sequence.

The argument that "God only knows/knew about one source of light and that source must be a fusion reaction 93 million miles away" has yet to be proven. It is not "a given".