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Genesis 1:6

Discussion in 'Creationism' started by PrincetonGuy, May 17, 2020.

  1. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    Gen 1:6 ויאמר אלהים יהי רקיע בתוך המים ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים׃ (Masoretic Text)

    Gen. 1:6. And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” (NRSV)

    Genesis 1:6 Then God said, “Let there be a dome in the middle of the waters, to separate one body of water from the other.” (NAB)

    Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. (KJV)

    Genesis 1:6. Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”

    Gen 1:6 Καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός Γενηθήτω στερέωμα ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ ἔστω διαχωρίζον ἀνὰ μέσον ὕδατος καὶ ὕδατος. καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως. (Septugint)

    Gen 1:6 dixit quoque Deus fiat firmamentum in medio aquarum et dividat aquas ab aquis (Latin Vulgate)

    Are chapters 1-11 in Genesis an accurate historical account? In Genesis 1:6, we read that God created a רקיע in the midst of the waters to separate the waters from the waters. But…what is a רקיע? It is something that has been expanded as in a lump of copper that has been beaten to expand it and form it into a dish. The Greek translation of רקיע, στερέωμα, expresses the concept of a strong solid structural support. The Latin translation of רקיע, firmamentum, also expresses the concept of a strong solid structural support. The English translation of רקיע, firmament found in the KJV and some subsequent translations, also expressed the concept of a strong solid structural support—but the church, for obvious reasons, invented, out of thin air, a new meaning of the word. The NASB, and many other translations, opted for the translation “expanse.”

    Genesis 1-11 is written in a genre of writing that is not found anywhere else in the Bible, and consequently Genesis 1-11 is very often studied today as a distinct unit of Scripture. A very similar genre of writing is used in epic tales, sagas, myths, and legends. So we ask, did God choose tell us the creation story clothed in the cultural beliefs of the ancient Hebrews, or is the word רקיע simply misunderstood by modern Christians?
     
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  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    The word for propitiation is the greek for "appeasing the angry pagan deity with a blood sacrifice" -- but the NIV insightfully translates it as "atoning sacrifice" in 1 John 2:2 and Romans 3. Thus it is the Bible model of "Atonement" where "God so loved that HE gave".. rather than the pagan greek concept of propitiation where the angry deity was appeased by the blood of the helpless victim (at the mouth of the volcano - for example)

    Gen 1
    4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

    6 Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. 8 God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

    9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good

    ===================

    In Gen 1:7 the "expanse" is called "heaven".

    Gen 1:20 Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.”

    ====================

    NASB clearly has it right.. so also the KJV and NKJV

    1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.KJV

    1:20 20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.

    As opposed to "birds fly in the open lump of copper" -- which was never a teaching of the Hebrews or even pagans.


    Now here is a question for the OP -- were we simply "not supposed to notice"?
     
  3. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    The earth is a flat stationary creation with a raqia placed over it separating the waters below(seas) and the waters above the raqia. In the raqia is where the sun moon and stars are located. Above the waters above the raqia is the heavens 2nd and 3rd.

    If you to not believe the Bibles account then you can believe the science version.

    But The Bible and science are not describing the same creation so one is lying.
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    or it is a sphere - where the intersection of a sphere and a plane ... is a circle.
    Job 26:10 - boundary between light and dark on the earth - is a circle
    “He has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters
    At the boundary of light and darkness.



    Isaiah 40:22- Expanding Universe

    It is He who sits above the (sphere) circle of the earth,
    And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
    Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain
    And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
  5. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Put it this way, did Jesus lie when he referred to Adam?
    If he didn't then you can take genesis as being gospel true.
    If he did then we all have a problem as we are still unsaved sinners.
     
  6. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    To bad this person who wrote this does not believe the Bible gives an accurate account of Gods creation. It is a good article on The Bibles account of The creation of God.

    It basic point is that the original creation (earth) was a flat single piece of land surrounded by the sea.

    Geographical Meaning of "Earth" and "Seas" in Gen. 1:10: Seely

    This next link from the same source and person, is about the raqia.

    http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...s/Text/Articles-Books/Seely-Firmament-WTJ.pdf
     
  7. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    A fundamental teaching of Christianity—both Roman Catholic and Protestant—is that in His earthly ministry, Jesus was both perfectly divine and perfectly human. He had human blood, human bones, a human heart, and a human brain with all of the physical limitations of a human brain. Therefore, His knowledge was limited to the capacity of His brain. In His humanity, Jesus was a first century Jew who, like his neighbors, would have believed that the earth is flat and covered with a dome just like the Bible says in Genesis 1:6-8.

    6. And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
    7. So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.
    8. God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day. (NRSV)

    He would also have believed that the rest of Genesis 1-11 is an accurate, literal account of actual historical events. Therefore, when He referred to Adam in the first five chapters of Genesis, He was referring to what He believed to be an accurate, literal account—not realizing, in his humanity,—that the creation story was clothed in the cultural beliefs of the ancient Hebrews through whom God chose to give us that part of Scripture. However, the fact that all people have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God is no less true—and it is no less true that Jesus died and shed His blood on the cross for our sins.

    Our English word “gospel’ is a translation of the Greek word εὐαγγέλιον which is found in the Greek New testament 76 times—and never in the context of Genesis 1-11. The cognate verb εὐαγγελίζω is found in the Greek New testament 54 times—and never in the context of Genesis 1-11. The bad news is that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (NRSV); the good news (the gospel) is that “they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. (NRSV)

    It can be argued that the Apostle Paul had a very good education and would have known that the earth is spherical rather than flat, and yet in Romans 5: 12-19 he taught the doctrine of original sin and the gift of righteousness though Jesus Christ, naming Adam as a type of Christ. However, Paul was Jewish to core (“circumcised on the eighth day, a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;” Philippians 3:5), and he may have therefore rejected as error the teaching that the earth is spherical, and believed Genesis 1:6-8 where it explicitly says “God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome.” That is, because of his very strong Jewish predisposition, Paul believed that Genesis 1-11 is an accurate account of historic events—a belief that is actually nullified by the fact that the earth is spherical rather than flat.

    If Jesus knew that the earth is spherical, He also knew that the creation story in Genesis is NOT an accurate account of historic events. If Jesus did not know that the earth is spherical, He would have believed that the earth is flat and covered with a solid, supporting structure, that is, a dome!
     
  8. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There are two responded to this.
    Either you believe Jesus knowingly lied about creation.
    Or
    Jesus in confirming the creation account confirms that it is correct and that the evolutionary account is false.

    Up to you which you believe.
     
  9. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    The true concept that the earth is spherical rather than flat is expressly contradicted by the use of the word רָקִיעַ in the Hebrew text of Genesis 1:6-8, and the word στερέωμα in the Septuagint. The Greek word στερέωμα is used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ, and expresses the concept of “the sky as a supporting structure, the firmament.” (BDAG*, the italics are theirs). This Greek word is also found in Paul’s writings to express the concept of a “state or condition of firm commitment, firmness, steadfastness” (BDAG, the italics are theirs),

    Col. 2.5. εἰ γὰρ καὶ τῇ σαρκὶ ἄπειμι, ἀλλὰ τῷ πνεύματι σὺν ὑμῖν εἰμι, χαίρων καὶ βλέπων ὑμῶν τὴν τάξιν καὶ τὸ στερέωμα τῆς εἰς Χριστὸν πίστεως ὑμῶν. (NA28)

    Col. 2.5. For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, and I rejoice to see your morale and the firmness of your faith in Christ. (NRSV)

    Paul routinely quoted from the Septuagint as Scripture, and in his letter to the Romans, he quoted from the Old Testament 64 times. 46 of the quotes are from the Septuagint, 4 of the quotes are from the Masoretic text, and 14 of them differ from both the Masoretic text and the Septuagint. Moreover, in his letter to the Romans, Paul quoted from the book of Genesis 9 times—mostly from the Septuagint!

    The Greek word στερέωμα is also found in a number of other ancient Greek writings where it always expresses the concepts of something solid, strength, firmness or steadfastness. Indeed, all hands (even the folks at Answers in Genesis!) freely admit that this Greek word expresses in Genesis the concept of a ‘solid, supporting structure.’

    Therefore, If Jesus knew that the earth is spherical, He also knew that the creation story in Genesis is NOT an accurate account of historic events. If Jesus did not know that the earth is spherical, He would have believed that the earth is flat and covered with a solid, supporting structure, that is, a dome!

    Jesus never lied about anything! However, in his humanity, Jesus was a first century Jew who, like his neighbors, would have believed that the earth is flat and covered with a dome just like the Bible says in Genesis 1:6-8,

    Gen. 1:6. And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
    7. So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.
    8. God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

    In His earthly ministry, Jesus was both perfectly divine and perfectly human—and ALL human beings make mistakes! “To err is human; to forgive, divine.” Alexander Pope

    *A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed., University of Chicago Press, 2000 (BDAG)
     
  10. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    You do realize some of us believe in both a literal historical 6 day creation and a spherical earth. Do not make out that all of us who think it's spherical hold to some non-literal view.

    I believe the earth was created with a thick water vapour canopy all the way around and surrounding and that most of this came down at the flood. From wherever you look at it the sky is a dome above you. This would be so if you are sat in a field and looked up on either a flat or a round earth. So seeing a dome from your field does not mean that is all there is to it, that is just the view your eyes are capable of. The same way I can't see America from here, but I assume it and you are over there and I can see the Southern Cross constellation at night here and you can't.

    If you want to believe the earth is flat with a dome over the top only on one side then you are welcome to it, but if you want others to even contemplate it you have to explain why the world looks round from space let alone the basic science problems a flat earth raises.
    If you say that the pictures from space are a hoax, then you need to show a good reason for it. A hoax that big takes not only a lot of people but a huge amount of money as well as cooperation from all the countries involved. Seems much simpler to believe they have been in space, have seen it and the pictures are true. The shape has not changed my doctrine.

    Since God did not dwell on or impress upon us the shape of the earth except to say it looks like a circle from a distance, (which both flat and round can look like) and the shape does not affect any doctrine, it's a complete distraction from what is actually important.
    Which is that creation is literal, that Adam is literal, that Jesus is the second Adam and that there was no death before sin. If the earth is flat, round or potato-shaped makes no difference.
     
  11. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    We are all free to believe what we want to believe, but no where in the Bible does it say anything at all about “a thick water vapour canopy all the way around and surrounding and that most of this came down at the flood.” It does say in the Bible, however,

    Gen. 1:6. And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
    7. So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.
    8. God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day. (NRSV)

    As has already been posted, the word “dome” is a translation of the Hebrew word רקיע, “something that has been expanded as in a lump of copper that has been beaten to expand it and form it into a dish.”The Greek translation of רקיע, στερέωμα, expresses the concept of a strong solid structural support. In Genesis 7:11, we read that this strong solid structural support had windows in it which God opened contributing a part of the flood waters.

    God chose to tell us the creation story clothed in the cultural beliefs of the ancient Hebrews. I do not share those cultural beliefs, and I know for a fact that the earth is spherical rather than flat! Please read my posts and reply to what I wrote rather than what I did NOT write.

    The shape of the earth as described in the Bible is of critical importance because it makes it expressly clear that God chose to tell us the creation story clothed in the cultural beliefs of the ancient Hebrews rather than in accord with modern western cultural beliefs.
     
  12. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    What you are calling the dome I am calling the water vapour canopy surrounding the earth. The sky looks like a dome from wherever you are standing because you can only see so far. Or do you not believe in the Southern Cross or Australia? You can't see us either.
    Genesis 1 KJV
    6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

    7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

    8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

    9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

    10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.


    something that has been expanded as in a lump of copper that has been beaten to expand it and form it into a dish.”
    It was already been pointed out that is not a good translation and it makes no sense as we can see the sky is neither copper nor does it say that God 'beat it' anywhere in Genesis, he simply divided it.

    Are you now saying the sky has literal windows?

    The only shape mentioned in the Bible is a circle. That God sits above the circle of the earth. Both flat and spherical earth would look round from a distance.

    If the shape is of such vital importance please outline what doctrine it involves and how the shape is involved in it. How else did you expect Moses to write it?

    If you are not making a case for a flat earth then I don't know what case you are trying to make, as the only people who believe in a dome are flat earthers. A flat disk covered by a dome on one side. I can't even begin to image what you are suggesting, a picture would help.
     
  13. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And to knowing not say anything about what is a lie is to accept the lie, which is the same as lying.
     
  14. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    Gen. 1:6. And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” (NRSV)

    Here is a link to a picture of what is described in Genesis 1:6,
    A COMMON COSMOLOGY OF THE ANCIENT WORLD

    The translation “dome” is supported by ALL of the Hebrew lexicons in use today in our seminaries and universities. Furthermore, the translation “dome” is supported by a massive amount a linguistic and cultural data. Some of that data has been linked to in post #6 above. Moreover, the NRSV of the Bible is overwhelmingly the translation of choice among Protestant and secular scholars around the world. The NAB (the New American Bible) is overwhelmingly the translation of choice among Roman Catholic scholars throughout the English-speaking world. The NAB gives us the following translation,”

    Gen. 1;6. Then God said, “Let there be a dome in the middle of the waters, to separate one body of water from the other.” And so it happened:
    7. God made the dome, and it separated the water above the dome from the water below it.
    8. God called the dome “the sky.” Evening came, and morning followed-the second day. (NAB)

    God made the dome such that it separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome,

    6. And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
    7. So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.
    8. God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day. (NRSV)

    How could a “water vapour canopy surrounding the earth” separate the waters that were under the water vapour canopy from the waters that were above the water vapour canopy?

    A blind person cannot see the sky at all, but that in no way changes what the Bible says about the structure of it.

    I am saying that the dome that separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome is described in the Bible as having windows that God opened on the first day of the flood.

    The shape of the earth as described in the Bible is of critical importance because it makes it expressly clear that God chose to tell us the creation story clothed in the cultural beliefs of the ancient Hebrews rather than in accord with modern western cultural beliefs.
     
  15. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    That's a dome over a flat world, yet above you said you said you did not believe in a flat earth.

    How could a “water vapour canopy surrounding the earth” separate the waters that were under the water vapour canopy from the waters that were above the water vapour canopy?

    There is water on the earth in the form of oceans. God drew water up away from the earths ocean to form the sky. I don't see anything difficult to understand there. Even though we no longer have the same vapour layer as the ancients did before the flood, what is left is still seperate, the clouds in the sky are separate from the oceans on the earth.
     
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