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Hi Platte
Thank you for your post how about this
Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Love and Peace
Dave
True, but before, you mention Egyptian gods in particular.
True, but before, you mention Egyptian gods in particular.
I agree with all that, except your last sentence. The bible doesn't talk about false gods as "actual supernatural beings," but as statues made of wood, stone or metal.Exodus 12:12 ESV
[12] For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the Lord.
Numbers 33:4 ESV
[4] while the Egyptians were burying all their firstborn, whom the Lord had struck down among them. On their gods also the Lord executed judgments.
If you want pagan gods by name, there are plenty of those as well. Though typically they're Babylonian or of other nations.
Either way, the point being,
The Bible is not based on other gods. But they are there, in the Bible. Doubtful that most today would believe that pagan Egyptian gods exist. But in the old testament, they are there. God speaks to them. God judges them. The gods of Egypt and Babylon. Marduk and Bel, Asteroth, Ashura etc.
And it's not talking about statues. It's talking about actual supernatural beings.
Psalm 82:1-2, 6-7 ESVI agree with all that, except your last sentence. The bible doesn't talk about false gods as "actual supernatural beings," but as statues made of wood, stone or metal.
Ok sorry I wasn’t clear. You made this statementExodus 12:12 ESV
[12] For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the Lord.
Who do you think God was talking about here? Some clay statues?
Numbers 33:4 ESV
[4] while the Egyptians were burying all their firstborn, whom the Lord had struck down among them. On their gods also the Lord executed judgments.
Isaiah 19:1 ESV
[1] An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
Jeremiah 46:25 ESV
[25] The Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, said: “Behold, I am bringing punishment upon Amon of Thebes, and Pharaoh and Egypt and her gods and her kings, upon Pharaoh and those who trust in him.
Ezekiel 30:13 ESV
[13] “Thus says the Lord God: “I will destroy the idols and put an end to the images in Memphis; there shall no longer be a prince from the land of Egypt; so I will put fear in the land of Egypt.
Psalm 82:1, 6-7 ESV
[1] God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
[6] I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; [7] nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince.”
Psalm 89:5-7 ESV
[5] Let the heavens praise your wonders, O Lord, your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones! [6] For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord? Who among the heavenly beings is like the Lord, [7] a God greatly to be feared in the council of the holy ones, and awesome above all who are around him?
1 Kings 18:21-27 ESV
[21] And Elijah came near to all the people and said, “How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him.” And the people did not answer him a word. [22] Then Elijah said to the people, “I, even I only, am left a prophet of the Lord, but Baal’s prophets are 450 men. [23] Let two bulls be given to us, and let them choose one bull for themselves and cut it in pieces and lay it on the wood, but put no fire to it. And I will prepare the other bull and lay it on the wood and put no fire to it. [24] And you call upon the name of your god, and I will call upon the name of the Lord, and the God who answers by fire, he is God.” And all the people answered, “It is well spoken.” [25] Then Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose for yourselves one bull and prepare it first, for you are many, and call upon the name of your god, but put no fire to it.” [26] And they took the bull that was given them, and they prepared it and called upon the name of Baal from morning until noon, saying, “O Baal, answer us!” But there was no voice, and no one answered. And they limped around the altar that they had made. [27] And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, “Cry aloud, for he is a god. Either he is musing, or he is relieving himself, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.”
1 Kings 11:4-5, 9 ESV
[4] For when Solomon was old his wives turned away his heart after other gods, and his heart was not wholly true to the Lord his God, as was the heart of David his father. [5] For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
[9] And the Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned away from the Lord, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice
Zephaniah 2:11 ESV
[11] The Lord will be awesome against them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth, and to him shall bow down, each in its place, all the lands of the nations.
It is not statues bowing down. It is the pagan deities of the Lord's enemies. Philistine gods.
Yes. Pagan deities are regularly referenced in the old testament. Sometimes being worshipped by people, and other times directly interacting with God.
Ok sorry I wasn’t clear. You made this statement
“Rather, it highlights God’s ability to meet people where they are, even in their understanding of the world. The same way we don’t believe in the Egyptian gods mentioned in the Bible, we can still learn profound truths from these ancient texts.”
You are comparing the Bible to ancient texts and compared Egyptian gods in the ancient text to a cosmology in the Bible?
You are saying we can still learn from the Bible even if things in the Bible are not real?
Sort of. To the original biblical authors, some things were real, that today, we might think, well that sounds strange.
Um. Jonah. Ok, he is thrown into the deep. And he sinks down. And what happens to him?
Jonah 2:5-6 ESV
[5] The waters closed in over me to take my life; the deep surrounded me; weeds were wrapped about my head [6] at the roots of the mountains. I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever; yet you brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my God.
Well, he sank down into the underworld. Sheol.
Jonah 2:2 ESV
[2] saying, “I called out to the Lord, out of my distress, and he answered me; out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and you heard my voice.
That's why it says that bars closed around him. That's what "the pit" is, it is sheol, the underworld.
But we don't read that and think "oh wow, if I go scuba diving into the ocean, I'll find a gateway to the underworld?"
That's just not a proper way to read the Bible. Because it's not about the structure of the earth.
Or here in Genesis:
Genesis 37:35 ESV
[35] All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted and said, “No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning.” Thus his father wept for him.
What, so we can get a shovel and go down to the underworld?
The word translated "gods" can also mean "angels":Psalm 82:1-2, 6-7 ESV
[1] God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: [2] “How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
[6] I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; [7] nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince.”
Psalm 89:5-7 ESV
[5] Let the heavens praise your wonders, O Lord, your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones! [6] For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord? Who among the heavenly beings is like the Lord, [7] a God greatly to be feared in the council of the holy ones, and awesome above all who are around him?
No. They aren't just statues. The Bible is clear.
No need to play translation gymnastics here. The Hebrew word elohim (gods), is the same as is used for God himself.The word translated "gods" can also mean "angels":
“For You have made him a little lower than the angels, And You have crowned him with glory and honor.” (Ps 8:5 NKJV)
It's sometimes rendered, "mighty ones":
“«A Psalm of David.» Give unto the LORD, O you mighty ones, Give unto the LORD glory and strength.” (Ps 29:1 NKJV)
The bible is clear that the false gods are not gods at all:
“For all the gods of the peoples [are] idols, But the LORD made the heavens.” (1Ch 16:26 NKJV)
I feel like you guys are having a really hard time with the topic of "cultural context". You have understand that the Bible has authors. And that the authors have a cultural context.
Example:
Exodus 4:24-26 ESV
[24] At a lodging place on the way the Lord met him and sought to put him to death. [25] Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son’s foreskin and touched Moses’ feet with it and said, “Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me!” [26] So he let him alone. It was then that she said, “A bridegroom of blood,” because of the circumcision.
Does anyone know why zipporah did what she did here?
I feel like you guys are having a really hard time with the topic of "cultural context". You have understand that the Bible has authors. And that the authors have a cultural context.
Or here:
Tehillim (Psalms) 139:13 TS2009
[13] For You, You possessed my kidneys, You have covered me in my mother’s womb.
You possessed my kidneys?
The psalmist oftentimes references his kidneys. Why?
Because in their ancient culture, the kidneys were how we describe our heart or mind, today.
The passage isn't actually about someone's kidneys. It's just a part of the contextual background in the text.
Likewise, yes the Bible talks about a flat earth. But that's not actually what the Bible is based on or about.
Again the Bible does not talk or teach a flat earth. And again why would a Christian present arguments that the Bible writers believed in the flat earth cosmologies. that is normally done by non Christian’s to prove that the Bible is not inspired by God, but that the people who wrote the Bible merely reflected the worldview of their times.I feel like you guys are having a really hard time with the topic of "cultural context". You have understand that the Bible has authors. And that the authors have a cultural context.
Example:
Exodus 4:24-26 ESV
[24] At a lodging place on the way the Lord met him and sought to put him to death. [25] Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son’s foreskin and touched Moses’ feet with it and said, “Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me!” [26] So he let him alone. It was then that she said, “A bridegroom of blood,” because of the circumcision.
Does anyone know why zipporah did what she did here?
I feel like you guys are having a really hard time with the topic of "cultural context". You have understand that the Bible has authors. And that the authors have a cultural context.
Or here:
Tehillim (Psalms) 139:13 TS2009
[13] For You, You possessed my kidneys, You have covered me in my mother’s womb.
You possessed my kidneys?
The psalmist oftentimes references his kidneys. Why?
Because in their ancient culture, the kidneys were how we describe our heart or mind, today.
The passage isn't actually about someone's kidneys. It's just a part of the contextual background in the text.
Likewise, yes the Bible talks about a flat earth. But that's not actually what the Bible is based on or about.
Again the Bible does not talk or teach a flat earth. And again why would a Christian present arguments that the Bible writers believed in the flat earth cosmologies. that is normally done by non Christian’s to prove that the Bible is not inspired by God, but that the people who wrote the Bible merely reflected the worldview of their times.
Is that what you are doing - trying to show the Bible is not inspired by God. Because none of the statements you are saying are facts. What is your motivation?
Sorry, I assure you I wasn't trying to play verbal gymnastics. My apologies if I gave that impression. Could I just ask, are you saying you believe that the false gods were real, supernatural beings?No need to play translation gymnastics here. The Hebrew word elohim (gods), is the same as is used for God himself.
Sorry, where have I said any such thing?Or how about you @David Lamb, do you think that if we took a shovel and dug down deep enough, that eventually we would just fall into an underworld?
What I'm pointing out here, is that in the old testament, the original authors described things. Be it an underworld sheol beneath our feet. Be it windows in the sky (Genesis 7:11 and 8:2) that open and close to release "the waters above". Be it, the psalmist talking about his kidneys. Be it, Egyptian deities etc.Sorry, where have I said any such thing?
@PlatteI never said that the Bible teaches that the earth is flat. But it does reference a flat earth.
Just as the Bible doesn't teach that there is a gateway to the underworld at the bottom of the ocean (Jonah 2) that we might go down to Genesis 37:35.
Then all his sons and all his daughters got up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, “Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son.” So his father wept for him.
Genesis 37:35
Sheol below is excited about you, to meet you when you come; It stirs the spirits of the dead for you, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isaiah 14:9
Do you think there is an underworld somewhere beneath our feet?
Or how about you @David Lamb, do you think that if we took a shovel and dug down deep enough, that eventually we would just fall into an underworld?
And no, Asteroth and Anubis are not real. But to the OT biblical authors, they were.What I'm pointing out here, is that in the old testament, the original authors described things. Be it an underworld sheol beneath our feet. Be it windows in the sky (Genesis 7:11 and 8:2) that open and close to release "the waters above". Be it, the psalmist talking about his kidneys. Be it, Egyptian deities etc.
The original authors spoke through their historical worldview while expressing the revelation that they had received from God.
And that's why the Bible strangely seems to talk about earth seemingly being flat, with an underworld below and with an ocean in the sky. Not because the Bible teaches this. But rather, it's just a cultural reference. The Bible is not based on an ancient cosmology. Rather this cosmology is simply present in the text, backgrounding the narrative.
What I meant was that I have never knowingly said anything about digging down and getting to the underworld.What I'm pointing out here, is that in the old testament, the original authors described things. Be it an underworld sheol beneath our feet. Be it windows in the sky (Genesis 7:11 and 8:2) that open and close to release "the waters above". Be it, the psalmist talking about his kidneys. Be it, Egyptian deities etc.
The original authors spoke through their historical worldview while expressing the revelation that they had received from God.
And that's why the Bible strangely seems to talk about earth seemingly being flat, with an underworld below and with an ocean in the sky. Not because the Bible teaches this. But rather, it's just a cultural reference. The Bible is not based on an ancient cosmology. Rather this cosmology is simply present in the text, backgrounding the narrative.
You appear to be supporting Platte in rejecting ANE cosmology in the text, are you not?What I meant was that I have never knowing said anything about digging down and getting to the underworld.
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