Genesis 1:2 and Hebrew word "Hayah" question

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hi. Anyone want to give a view on the correct interpretation of the Hebrew word used in Genesis 1:2?

That word "Hayah" is interesting and is used in a variety of different tenses/genders in the OT/OC.

The Greek word #1096. ginomai used in the NT/NC also appears to come from this word meaning "to-become". Thoughts? Thanks

http://www.christianforums.com/t5925...-am-hayah.html

Genesis 1:2 and the Land she-became/01961 hayah waste/vain/tohuw and empty/void/bohuw, and darkness/choshek on surface of submerged-chaos/t@howm, and a spirit/ruwach of 'Elohiym brooding/rachaph over face/paniym of the waters/mayim

Strong's Number H1961 matches the Hebrew היה (hayah).

01961 hayah{haw-yaw} a primitive root [compare 01933]; TWOT - 491; v
1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out 1a) (Qal) 1a1) -----
1961 hayah haw-yaw a primitive root (Compare 1933); to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):--beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-)self, require, X use

1096. ginomai ghin'-om-ahee a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):--arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

 

[GeratTzedek]

It's a good question. The verb can be either was OR became... It's a question you would really need to discuss with a Rabbinical EXPERT in Hebrew.

If you come into the Messianic Forum, ask TheRabbi in the Orthodox Messianic subforum. I'm sure he will give you the best answer available. Do you think you can manage that without your usual "Judaen" comments?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It's a good question. The verb can be either was OR became... It's a question you would really need to discuss with a Rabbinical EXPERT in Hebrew.

If you come into the Messianic Forum, ask TheRabbi in the Orthodox Messianic subforum. I'm sure he will give you the best answer available. Do you think you can manage that without your usual "Judaen" comments?

Ok thanks but I want to keep this open for other views rather than just Jewish as not ALL Hebrew Israelites were Jews.

That same word is also used in this most "famous" verse in Exodus 3 and interesting the article "the" is used before "'Elohiym" here but that is not the case most times.

Exodus 3:13 And-is-saying Mosheh to The-'Elohiym , "Lo, I coming to sons of Yisra'el, and I say to them, 'Elohiym of your fathers He sends me to you'. And they have said to me, 'What Name of Him'? What shall I say to them"?

14 And 'Elohiym is saying to Mosheh, "I-shall-be/01961 hayah who I-shall-be/01961 hayah". And-He saying "Thus you shall say to sons of Yisra'el, 'I-shall-be/01961 hayah, He-sent-me unto-you'".

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Used 43 times in 40 verses as

I-shall-be [First time used Exodus 3:12]
I-am-becoming
I-shall-become

 

[GeratTzedek]

Hi. Anyone want to give a view on the correct interpretation of the Hebrew word used in Genesis 1:2?

That word "Hayah" is interesting and is used in a variety of different tenses/genders in the OT/OC.

The Greek word #1096. ginomai used in the NT/NC also appears to come from this word meaning "to-become". Thoughts? Thanks

http://www.christianforums.com/t5925...-am-hayah.html

Genesis 1:2 and the Land she-became/01961 hayah waste/vain/tohuw and empty/void/bohuw, and darkness/choshek on surface of submerged-chaos/t@howm, and a spirit/ruwach of 'Elohiym brooding/rachaph over face/paniym of the waters/mayim

Strong's Number H1961 matches the Hebrew היה (hayah).

01961 hayah{haw-yaw} a primitive root [compare 01933]; TWOT - 491; v
1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out 1a) (Qal) 1a1) -----
1961 hayah haw-yaw a primitive root (Compare 1933); to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):--beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-)self, require, X use

You mean you prefer to gather the opinions of NON-experts, rather than ask a Jew? Very strange, but not surprising I suppose.

"Jew," as I've stated before, has for a LONG TIME come to mean anyone of ANY of the twelve tribes. My levite friend, for example, is a Jew. I have no idea to which tribe TheRabbi belongs, although he is certainly a Jew. The tribe of Manassah, for example, has been found, and granted right of return to Israel. They are called JEWS.

So why do you persist in your insulting use of "Judean?"

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You mean you prefer to gather the opinions of NON-experts? Very strange, but suit yourself.

"Jew," as I've stated before, has for a LONG TIME come to mean anyone of ANY of the twelve tribes. My levite friend, for example, is a Jew. I have no idea to which tribe TheRabbi belongs, although he is certainly a Jew. The tribe of Manassah, for example, has been found, and granted right of return to Israel. They are called JEWS.

So why do you persist in your insulting use of "Judean?"

Hi. I will let others [non-Messianics] decide whether that is "insulting" or Biblical as I have no desire to get into a debate concernin Jew or non-Jew.

Please stay on topic of the Hebrew word "Hayah" in Genesis and the OC of the Bible.

John 4:22 "Ye are worshipping what ye have not perceived; we are worshipping what we have perceived, that the Salvation out/ek <1537> of the Judeans/ioudaiwn <2453> is".

John 7:1 And was walking-about, the Jesus, after these-things, in the Galilee, for not He desired in the Judea/ioudaia <2449> to be walking-about, that sought Him, the Judeans/ioudaioi <2453>, to kill,

(tr) NT) John 7:1 | kai <2532> {AND} periepatei <4043> (5707) {WALKING ABOUT} o <3588> {THE} ihsouV <2424> {JESUS} meta <3326> {WITH} tauta <5023> {THESE THINGS} en <1722> {IN} th <3588> {THE} galilaia <1056> {GALILEE,} ou <3756> {NOT} gar <1063> {FOR} hqelen <2309> (5707) {HE DID DESIRE} en <1722> {IN} th <3588> {THE} ioudaia <2449> {JUDEA} peripatein <4043> (5721) {TO BE WALKING ABOUT,} oti <3754> {THAT} ezhtoun <2212> (5707) {WERE SEEKING} auton <846> {HIM} oi <3588> {THE} ioudaioi <2453> {JUDEANS} apokteinai <615> (5658) {TO KILL.}

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

to be or become . . . a basic word like the english "be/was/is" . . . exact meaning depending on context.

 

[GeratTzedek]

It makes no sense to say I will let non-blacks decide what is insulting to blacks, or non-chinese decide what is insulting to chinese, or I will let men decide what is insulting to women, and it makes no sense for you to say you will let non-Jews decide what is insulting to Jews. Jews have adopted the word "Jews," not "Judeans." You are being insulting. To go to Christians to decide what is insulting to Jews adds additional insult.

What if I were to say to you, "I've decided to call you an X-er. After all, X is the first Greek letter of Christ. And I've decided to let non-X-ers decide what is insulting." Do you see how stupid and insulting that would be?

It is impossible to ignore your continued anti-Semitic speech. Please don't expect me to, please don't continue to ask me to. As long as you continue to wrongly call Jews "Judeans" rather than simply acknowledge them as Jews, I will rightly respond. I have no other moral choice before my G-d.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Exodus 3:13 And-is-saying Mosheh to The-'Elohiym , "Lo, I coming to sons of Yisra'el, and I say to them, 'Elohiym of your fathers He sends me to you'. And they have said to me, 'What Name of Him'? What shall I say to them"?

14 And 'Elohiym is saying to Mosheh, "I-shall-be/01961 hayah who I-shall-be/01961 hayah". And-He saying "Thus you shall say to sons of Yisra'el, 'I-shall-be/01961 hayah, He-sent-me unto-you'".

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Used 43 times in 40 verses as

I-shall-be [First time used Exodus 3:12]
I-am-becoming
I-shall-become

to be or become . . . a basic word like the english "be/was/is" . . . exact meaning depending on context.

That form of the Greek word "to become" is also used in Reve 16/21.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh messenger did pour out his vial to the air, and there came forth a great voice from the sanctuary of the heaven, from the throne, saying, `It hath become/gegonen <1096> (5754)!'

Reve 21:6 And He said to me:" it-hath-become/gegonen <1096> (5754). I am the alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the End. I, to the one thirsting, shall be giving out of the spring of the water of the life gratuitously".

gegonen <1096> (5754)!' Used 31 times.

1096. ginomai 685 times in 637 verses

1096. ginomai ghin'-om-ahee a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):--arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass),

 

[GenemZ]

Hi. Anyone want to give a view on the correct interpretation of the Hebrew word used in Genesis 1:2?

That word "Hayah" is interesting and is used in a variety of different tenses/genders in the OT/OC.

The Greek word #1096. ginomai used in the NT/NC also appears to come from this word meaning "to-become". Thoughts? Thanks

http://www.christianforums.com/t5925...-am-hayah.html

Genesis 1:2 and the Land she-became/01961 hayah waste/vain/tohuw and empty/void/bohuw, and darkness/choshek on surface of submerged-chaos/t@howm, and a spirit/ruwach of 'Elohiym brooding/rachaph over face/paniym of the waters/mayim

Strong's Number H1961 matches the Hebrew &#1492;&#1497;&#1492; (hayah).

01961 hayah{haw-yaw} a primitive root [compare 01933]; TWOT - 491; v
1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out 1a) (Qal) 1a1) -----
1961 hayah haw-yaw a primitive root (Compare 1933); to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):--beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-)self, require, X use

The exegetes spend so much time magnifying a gnat, they fail to see the camel. They make the entire interpretation of Genesis 1:2 to rest upon the word "hayah."

The problem with "hayah" is that those who understand what the Hebrew is implying, know its impossible for God to create such disorder, havoc and a dismal emptiness on the earth in a perfect world. That what tohu wa bohu infers does not reflect the nature of the Creator. It would be like God first made Adam a raving monster, and then changed him to human form. God does not work that way.

I believe Hayah has been wrongly understood why its there in the passage, and that's why the exegetical argument is always a vicious cycle of an ongoing fight going nowhere.

The Masoretic text includes a foot note explaining that the Hebrew structure indicates there is to be a pause between verse 1 and 2.

Why? The Bible was taught orally before the people back then.. The reader was to declare verse one... then pause! Silence!

After that pause, the reader would then continue reading on.

What was taking place was a time fade. Its a very common practice seen in movies and stories where we see someone speaking in the present as the scene fades out -pauses- and then back into the present past, or present future.

We are taken to that past or future and allowed to witness to something as if it were happening while we are being shown. Like Scrooge fading to the past and future. What he sees appears to be happening in the present, but is from
another point in time. There was always a pause and fade before the transfer takes place.

To best illustrate what I mean, I am going to substitute Henry Ford instead of God. And, instead of the earth, I am going to use the Model T, his creation.

"In the beginning Henry Ford created the Model T."
​

(now we have a pause for a time shift).....

Now, the Model T was on cinder blocks, the paint faded and peeling, the doors hanging half off, bent wheels lying on the ground, squirrels nesting under the hood, and the engine frozen solid with crusted rust."

​

Now? We know Henry Ford did not created it that way in the beginning. We know it had to *become* that way.

Yet?

With the pause, and fade, into another point in time? Showing the condition the Model T had become? We can assume it had to become that way. We do not have to be told it became that way.

The dramatic effect with how the passage is to be read speaks of a past event (created). Then it moves us into another point in time (also in the past) which says the Model T was an absolute un-drivable wreck.

It does not have to tell us that it "became." For, just like the Hebrew listener hearing about Genesis 1:2, he understood that it had become what it was not created to be.

Genesis 1:2, most likely should be translated "was." That does not mean that was they way the heavens and earth were created in the beginning! For, any Israelite knowing what tohu wa bohu meant, knew God would not have created it that way.

Because sholars have not concentrated on the dramatic effect in story telling built into the Bible, they got caught up trying to make *was* into *became.* Then the great 'hayah' war began.

It really does not matter how we translate hayah. If you know what the Hebrew is telling us? We know God did not created the earth that way in the beginning. No more than Henry Ford created the Model T to be a rusting away wreck, sitting on cinder blocks.


Grace and peace.....

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Hi. I will let others [non-Messianics] decide whether that is "insulting" or Biblical as I have no desire to get into a debate concernin Jew or non-Jew.

Please stay on topic of the Hebrew word "Hayah" in Genesis and the OC of the Bible.

John 4:22 "Ye are worshipping what ye have not perceived; we are worshipping what we have perceived, that the Salvation out/ek <1537> of the Judeans/ioudaiwn <2453> is".

John 7:1 And was walking-about, the Jesus, after these-things, in the Galilee, for not He desired in the Judea/ioudaia <2449> to be walking-about, that sought Him, the Judeans/ioudaioi <2453>, to kill,

(tr) NT) John 7:1 | kai <2532> {AND} periepatei <4043> (5707) {WALKING ABOUT} o <3588> {THE} ihsouV <2424> {JESUS} meta <3326> {WITH} tauta <5023> {THESE THINGS} en <1722> {IN} th <3588> {THE} galilaia <1056> {GALILEE,} ou <3756> {NOT} gar <1063> {FOR} hqelen <2309> (5707) {HE DID DESIRE} en <1722> {IN} th <3588> {THE} ioudaia <2449> {JUDEA} peripatein <4043> (5721) {TO BE WALKING ABOUT,} oti <3754> {THAT} ezhtoun <2212> (5707) {WERE SEEKING} auton <846> {HIM} oi <3588> {THE} ioudaioi <2453> {JUDEANS} apokteinai <615> (5658) {TO KILL.}

LittleLamb why not take Ger's suggestion and ask The Rabbi in the other forum and ask his permission to post his response in this forum? OR just ask him to stop by and post?

After all he knows Hebrew.

Because it seems like you are all over the place with your translations and it is a good suggestion to seek a 'expert'.

Marc

 

[GenemZ]

It's a good question. The verb can be either was OR became... It's a question you would really need to discuss with a Rabbinical EXPERT in Hebrew.

If you come into the Messianic Forum, ask TheRabbi in the Orthodox Messianic subforum. I'm sure he will give you the best answer available. Do you think you can manage that without your usual "Judaen" comments?

That is not necessarily true. I having been Jewish realize that even rabbis do not all agree. Nor, are they always led of the Holy Spirit who gives insight into Scriptural intent. Rabbis denounce certain NT renditions of OT passages. So, what you say does not have to be true.

And, if you read my post on 'hayah' you would see that it really does not matter if its translated 'was' or ' became.' We are falling back into the same old argument which can trap and mislead.

Yet, it can not hurt to ask a rabbi, as long as he understands that the rabbi does not have to be correct. It will all depend on how he justifies his answer.

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by GerTzedek It's a good question. The verb can be either was OR became... It's a question you would really need to discuss with a Rabbinical EXPERT in Hebrew.

If you come into the Messianic Forum, ask TheRabbi in the Orthodox Messianic subforum. I'm sure he will give you the best answer available. Do you think you can manage that without your usual "Judaen" comments?

Thanks.
I looked to see how the LXX translated that hebrew word "hayah".
They use the greek word "# 1510 eimi" whereas I felt the greek word "# 1096 ginomai" would be more accurate.

Look at the use of both of those words in John 8:58 for example. Thoughts?

[LXX] Gene 1:2 h de gh hn#1510 aoratov kai akataskeuastov, kai skotov epanw thv abussou, kai pneuma qeou epefereto epanw tou udatov.


John 8:57 Said then the Judeans towards Him "fifty years not as-yet thou are having and Abraham thou has seen"
58 Said to them Jesus "verily verily I am saying to ye, before Abraham's to be becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635) I AM/eimi <1510>"

Textus Rec.) John 8:58 eipen autoiV o ihsouV amhn amhn legw umin prin abraam genesqai egw eimi

1510. eimi i-mee' the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was. See also 1488, 1498, 1511, 1527, 2258, 2071, 2070, 2075, 2076, 2771, 2468, 5600.

1096. ginomai a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):--

 

[Merlin]

shalom,

I don't think we can know the correct interpretation.
even asking a rabbi, you can get only opinion or recent tradition.
it becomes what is your own theology?
my own opinion is 'became'.
it fits my OEC beliefs better

 

[MamaZ]

In my translation I do not see the word you are seeking LLOJ..

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

In my translation I do not see the word you are seeking LLOJ..

Which translation are you referring to? I generally use a greek/hebrew/english interlinear

http://www.scripture4all.org/

 

[MamaZ]

Which translation are you referring to?

My Hebrew lexicon.. Oh LOL.. I found it tee hee.. Sorry

 

[MamaZ]

to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Intesting post Mama........

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Shameless bump

 

[1whirlwind]

As He didn't create the world in a formless and void state...the word "became" means the world became that way. It became that way when Satan rebelled....he is the "darkness upon the face of the deep."

At the beginning of this age (same old ancient world, brand new age) "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters," and this age began! He was the Light shining to dispell the Darkness.

John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. (5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. (8) He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
​