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General Call or Free Offer?

The Bible teaches

  • the general call of the Gospel.

  • the free offer or well meant offer of the Gospel.

  • none of the above and I will explain.


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heymikey80

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I don't believe it's an offer at all but simply a command to repent or else.
Why then does God express a desire -- and with a force of statement utterly unmistakable?

Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live Ez 33:11

It's more than a command. It's a sentiment of God. It certainly includes a compelling command. But it definitely also includes a desire of God. It says so.

I realize it takes a lot to recognize that God's will is not all forces the same -- there's a Greek sense of elegance in thinking God is unified in all desires. But it appears Scripturally God has all forces organized rightly, and the result is moving in the direction God and His world moves in.

That's what you get when you read Calvin's most calvinistic articles, in "Eternal Predestination" and "Secret Providence".
 
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JM

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A command to repent isn't an offer. It is a command. The reprobate should repent and God told him he should repent. Does he repent then? No. He rejects God even in the face of revealed damnation.

And you would be correct. Just like giving the command, "thou shalt not kill" is not an offer...

:thumbsup:

It is clear that God does not desire to save everyone, He doesn't give an offer to everyone, in the preaching of the Gospel of otherwise. It's Arminian to claim God is sentimental.

We, the Particular Baptist, do not appeal to Calvin as mikey would have us. We do not have a final authority in the Banner of Truth either.

jm
 
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Osage Bluestem

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Why then does God express a desire -- and with a force of statement utterly unmistakable?

Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live Ez 33:11

It's more than a command. It's a sentiment of God. It certainly includes a compelling command. But it definitely also includes a desire of God. It says so.

I realize it takes a lot to recognize that God's will is not all forces the same -- there's a Greek sense of elegance in thinking God is unified in all desires. But it appears Scripturally God has all forces organized rightly, and the result is moving in the direction God and His world moves in.

That's what you get when you read Calvin's most calvinistic articles, in "Eternal Predestination" and "Secret Providence".

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He loves righteousness and those who don't repent do not please him. It is impossible to please God without faith.

Hebrews 11:6 ESV
6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
 
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heymikey80

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God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He loves righteousness and those who don't repent do not please him.
And more:

Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live Ez 33:11

God takes pleasure in the wicked turning from his way. It isn't as simple as God taking pleasure in shedding His grace: it is more complicated in that God takes pleasure in repentance.
 
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the particular baptist

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From the Gospel Standard articles of faith

ARTICLE 24
GOSPEL INVITATIONS

We believe that the invitations of the Gospel, being spirit and life*, are intended only for those who have been made by the blessed Spirit to feel their lost state as sinners and their need of Christ as their Saviour, and to repent of and forsake their sins.

Scripture references:
Isa. 55. 1; John 7. 37; Prov. 28. 13; Matt. 11. 28-30; John
6. 37.

* That is, under the influence of the Holy Spirit.
 
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heymikey80

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From the Gospel Standard articles of faith

ARTICLE 24
GOSPEL INVITATIONS

We believe that the invitations of the Gospel, being spirit and life*, are intended only for those who have been made by the blessed Spirit to feel their lost state as sinners and their need of Christ as their Saviour, and to repent of and forsake their sins.

Scripture references:
Isa. 55. 1; John 7. 37; Prov. 28. 13; Matt. 11. 28-30; John
6. 37.

* That is, under the influence of the Holy Spirit.
That would at the very least leave open the intention of the invitation in condemning those rejecting the Gospel.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. Jn 3:18-19

The issue as I've seen it normally revolves about whether the invitation is earnestly extended to everyone, or whether it's extended to the reprobate with the desire to condemn them even further. That's why Ezekiel 18 & 33 project so strongly into this issue. If the desire of God is the condemnation of evil, Ezekiel 18 & 33 are spoilers. They indicate God's desire is the redemption of evil.

That's not specifically ignoring the intent of the Gospel in condemning those who reject it. It's saying that God's offer would truly be open to any heart that would be open to Him.

The trouble is not in the openness of the offer. It's squarely placed in the heart of man.

So God's desire is to redeem some from evil. And God's desire is to save those redeemed from evil. There is no other way to be redeemed from evil than by His Spirit. He's redeemed us from our common misery by the grace of regeneration; and God has moved to save us by organizing all the graces.
 
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cygnusx1

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That would at the very least leave open the intention of the invitation in condemning those rejecting the Gospel.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. Jn 3:18-19

The issue as I've seen it normally revolves about whether the invitation is earnestly extended to everyone, or whether it's extended to the reprobate with the desire to condemn them even further. That's why Ezekiel 18 & 33 project so strongly into this issue. If the desire of God is the condemnation of evil, Ezekiel 18 & 33 are spoilers. They indicate God's desire is the redemption of evil.

That's not specifically ignoring the intent of the Gospel in condemning those who reject it. It's saying that God's offer would truly be open to any heart that would be open to Him.

The trouble is not in the openness of the offer. It's squarely placed in the heart of man.

So God's desire is to redeem some from evil. And God's desire is to save those redeemed from evil. There is no other way to be redeemed from evil than by His Spirit. He's redeemed us from our common misery by the grace of regeneration; and God has moved to save us by organizing all the graces.


Amen Mikey !!!

just posted this in soteriology , figured it may fit in here too ;


The question the OP poses is a good one .

How do you know that you have been predestined to salvation?

but I want to address the more controversial issue
tongue.gif


If it is true , and I don't believe it is , that God has no Gospel for the none -elect , that God does not offer salvation to anyone , that the Gospel is a command and not an offer , and it is preached to all men , elect and none elect because the preacher isn't quite sure who is elect or none elect as many H - Calvinists insist , then how does one know if the Gospel being preached is for me ?

How , given the concept that God cares not a jot for the none elect (He does , Matthew 5) are we to know when we hear the Gospel that it is for "me" and not just for the regenerate ?

Don't bother replying unless you can see the point the Hyper/High Calvinist is saying as you will undoubtedly throw out the "baby with the bath water" ...

The truth is Predestination and Divine election are no barrier whatsoever to the Gospel Offer , neither is a Limited atonement seeing as the power of Christs blood is sufficient to save any man .

The real problem is not just the Hyper-Calvinist feels God has nothing to offer the reprobate , BUT THE PREACHER does , that is a contradiction all by itself ! , yet the real problem is for those who do hear the Gospel , if it is "only for the elect" how do you know it's for 'you' ?
 
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Osage Bluestem

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An elect person will see he is a sinner without hope. He will be drawn to the cross and see that only Jesus Christ can forgive his sins. He will believe, repent, and ask for forgiveness and be forgiven by Jesus.

That's all a christian is, an undeserving sinner who has been forgiven by Jesus.
 
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cygnusx1

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An elect person will see he is a sinner without hope. He will be drawn to the cross and see that only Jesus Christ can forgive his sins. He will believe, repent, and ask for forgiveness and be forgiven by Jesus.

That's all a christian is, an undeserving sinner who has been forgiven by Jesus.

that still doesn't tell us how we know the Gospel is "for me" ........ if the Gospel is "only for the elect " then how is anyone ever going to know if they are called ?

your answer doesn't help because it looks to the after effects of salvation/regeneration , such after effects tell us nothing at the point where it counts .

Furthermore , what we have here , is God commanding all men do something "repent and believe" when it is said He has no desire that all obey this command ........

so should I obey if God doesn't want / desire / will me to ? why ?
 
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Osage Bluestem

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that still doesn't tell us how we know the Gospel is "for me" ........ if the Gospel is "only for the elect " then how is anyone ever going to know if they are called ?

your answer doesn't help because it looks to the after effects of salvation/regeneration , such after effects tell us nothing at the point where it counts .

Furthermore , what we have here , is God commanding all men do something "repent and believe" when it is said He has no desire that all obey this command ........

so should I obey if God doesn't want / desire / will me to ? why ?

If you are elect it's not going to matter. You will believe. You will repent. You will ask Jesus for forgiveness and you will be forgiven.

Salvation is of the Lord and he converts people on his time in his way after they have been exposed to the gospel he provided.
 
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cygnusx1

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If you are elect it's not going to matter. You will believe. You will repent. You will ask Jesus for forgiveness and you will be forgiven.

Salvation is of the Lord and he converts people on his time in his way after they have been exposed to the gospel he provided.


I don't think your hearing me , let me try another angle ;

The Gospel is all about Gods great love , how do I know He loves "me" ?
 
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JM

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I don't think your hearing me , let me try another angle ;

The Gospel is all about Gods great love , how do I know He loves "me" ?

cyg, you are getting off topic.

London Baptist Confession, 18.2 "This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope, but an infallible assurance of faith founded on the blood and righteousness of Christ revealed in the Gospel; and also upon the inward evidence of those graces of the Spirit unto which promises are made, and on the testimony of the Spirit of adoption, witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God; and, as a fruit thereof, keeping the heart both humble and holy."
( Hebrews 6:11, 19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 2 Peter 1:4, 5, 10, 11; Romans 8:15, 16; 1 John 3:1-3 )
 
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Osage Bluestem

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I don't think your hearing me , let me try another angle ;

The Gospel is all about Gods great love , how do I know He loves "me" ?

When the Holy Spirit lets you know by regenerating you and bringing you to the faith that gives the assurance of God's love.
 
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the particular baptist

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I don't think your hearing me , let me try another angle ;

The Gospel is all about Gods great love , how do I know He loves "me" ?

When Christ reveals Himself in one of the elect, completely aside from the preaching of the gospel, Christ tells him He loves Him. It is called regeneration. These people obey the gospel whether they have previously heard it or have yet to hear it.
 
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student ad x

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The only disagreement I can see is over God's desire to save all men .

The Calvin quote is taken from his commentary on Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 18:23

Ezekiel 18:23
23. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
23. An cupio cupiendo mortem impii, dicit Dominator Iehovah? An non ut convertatur a viis suis, et vivat?

He confirms the same sentiment in other words, that God desires nothing more earnestly than that those who were perishing and rushing to destruction should return into the way of safety. And for this reason not only is the Gospel spread abroad in the world, but God wished to bear witness through all ages how inclined he is to pity. For although the heathen were destitute of the law and the prophets, yet they were always endued with some taste of this doctrine. Truly enough they were suffocated by many errors: but we shall always find that they were induced by a secret impulse to seek for pardon, because this sense was in some way born with them, that God is to be appeased by all who seek him. Besides, God bore witness to it more clearly in the law and the prophets. In the Gospel we hear how familiarly he addresses us when he promises us pardon. (Luke 1:78.) And this is the knowledge of salvation, to embrace his mercy which he offers us in Christ. It follows, then, that what the Prophet now says is very true, that God wills not the death of a sinner, because he meets him of his own accord, and is not only prepared to receive all who fly to his pity, but he calls them towards him with a loud voice, when he sees how they are alienated from all hope of safety. But the manner must be noticed in which God wishes all to be saved, namely, when they turn themselves from their ways. God thus does not so wish all men to be saved as to renounce the difference between good and evil; but repentance, as we have said, must precede pardon. How, then, does God wish all men to be saved? By the Spirit’s condemning the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment at this day, by the Gospel, as he did formerly by the law and the prophets. (John 16:8.) God makes manifest to mankind their great misery, that they may betake themselves to him: he wounds that he may cure, and slays that he may give life. We hold, then, that; God wills not the death of a sinner, since he calls all equally to repentance, and promises himself prepared to receive them if they only seriously repent. If any one should object — then there is no election of God, by which he has predestinated a fixed number to salvation, the answer is at hand: the Prophet does not here speak of God’s secret counsel, but only recalls miserable men from despair, that they may apprehend the hope of pardon, and repent and embrace the offered salvation. If any one again objects — this is making God act with duplicity, the answer is ready, that God always wishes the same thing, though by different ways, and in a manner inscrutable to us. Although, therefore, God’s will is simple, yet great variety is involved in it, as far as our senses are concerned. Besides, it is not surprising that our eyes should be blinded by intense light, so that we cannot certainly judge how God wishes all to be saved, and yet has devoted all the reprobate to eternal destruction, and wishes them to perish. While we look now through a glass darkly, we should be content with the measure of our own intelligence. (1 Corinthians 13:12.) When we shall be like God, and see him face to face, then what is now obscure will then become plain. But since captious men torture this and similar passages, it will be needful to refute them shortly, since it can be done without trouble.
God is said not to wish the death of a sinner. How so? since he wishes all to be converted. Now we must see how God wishes all to be converted; for repentance is surely his peculiar gift: as it is his office to create men, so it is his province to renew them, and restore his image within them. For this reason we are said to be his workmanship, that is, his fashioning. (Ephesians 2:10.) Since, therefore, repentance is a kind of second creation, it follows that it is not in man’s power; and if it is equally in God’s power to convert men as well as to create them, it follows that the reprobate are not converted, because God does not wish their conversion; for if he wished it he could do it: and hence it appears that he does not wish it. But again they argue foolishly, since God does not wish all to be converted, he is himself deceptive, and nothing can be certainly stated concerning his paternal benevolence. But this knot is easily untied; for he does not leave us in suspense when he says, that he wishes all to be saved. Why so? for if no one repents without finding God propitious, then this sentence is filled up. But we must remark that God puts on a twofold character: for he here wishes to be taken at his word. As I have already said, the Prophet does not here dispute with subtlety about his incomprehensible plans, but wishes to keep our attention close to God’s word. Now, what are the contents of this word? The law, the prophets, and the gospel. Now all are called to repentance, and the hope of salvation is promised them when they repent. this is true, since God rejects no returning sinner: he pardons all without exception: meanwhile, this will of God which he sets forth in his word does not prevent him from decreeing before the world was created what he would do with every individual: and as I have now said, the Prophet only shows here, that when we have been converted we need not doubt that God immediately meets us and shows himself propitious. The remainder tomorrow.

Commentary on Ezekiel - Volume 2 | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Why then does God express a desire -- and with a force of statement utterly unmistakable?

Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live Ez 33:11

It's more than a command. It's a sentiment of God. It certainly includes a compelling command. But it definitely also includes a desire of God. It says so.

I realize it takes a lot to recognize that God's will is not all forces the same -- there's a Greek sense of elegance in thinking God is unified in all desires. But it appears Scripturally God has all forces organized rightly, and the result is moving in the direction God and His world moves in.

That's what you get when you read Calvin's most calvinistic articles, in "Eternal Predestination" and "Secret Providence".
smiley_emoticons_ugly_gruebel.gif


Francis Turretin on Ezekiel 18:23 and 33:11

"When God testifies that 'he has no pleasure at all in the death of the sinner, but that he should return from his ways, and live' (Eze.18:23), this does not favour the inefficacious will or the feeble velleity of God because the [Hebrew] word chpts (which occurs there) does not denote desire so much as delight and complacency. Thus God may be said not to delight in the punishment of the wicked inasmuch as it is the destruction of the creature, although he wills it as an exercise of his justice. So he is said to will the repentance of sinners approvingly and preceptively as a thing most pleasing to himself and expressed in his commands, although with respect to all of them he nills it decretively and effectively ... Although God protests that 'he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but in his conversion and life' (Eze. 33:11), it does not follow that from eternity he willed and intended under any condition the conversion and life of each and every man. For besides the fact that conversion cannot be intended under any condition (because it is itself a condition), it is certain that here is treated the will of euarestias and of complacency, not the will of good pleasure (eudokias) (which the verb chpts proves, meaning everywhere to be pleased and to hold as grateful, to imply that God is pleased with the conversion and life of the sinner as a thing grateful to him and agreeing with his perfectly merciful nature, rather than with his destruction, and therefore exacts it from man as a bounden duty to be converted if he desires to live). But although he wills not (i.e., is not pleased with the death of the sinner, as it denotes the destruction of a creature), yet he does not cease to will and intend it as an exercise of his justice and as the occasion of manifesting his glory (Prov. 1:26; 1 Sam. 2:34). Take, for example, a pious magistrate who is not pleased with the death of the guilty, yet does not cease justly to decree their punishment in accordance with the laws. Nor is it the case that if God does not properly intend their repentance and salvation, does he to no purpose say to the reprobate who are invited to repentance, 'Why will ye die?' For he rightly shows them by these words what they must do to avoid death and that by their voluntary impenitence, they alone are the cause of their own destruction, not God. For although by the decree of reprobation, he had passed them by and determined not to give them faith, yet no less voluntarily do they sin and so obstinately bring down their own destruction upon themselves" (Institutes of Elenctic Theology, vol. 1, pp. 229-230, 408).

Canons of Dordt III/IV:8: "As many as are called by the gospel, are unfeignedly called. For God hath most earnestly and truly shown in his Word, what is pleasing to him, namely, that those who are called should come to him. He, moreover, seriously promises eternal life, and rest, to as many as shall come to him, and believe on him."


__________________________________________________


2Corinthians 2:14-17

Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.



This passage speaks for itself.

By the way, i mis-clicked the poll. My answer according to 2Corinthians 2:14-17 the general proclamation of the gospel.

Good point.

it isn't the Gospel that damns men , its sin and Gods Law . The Good News isn't bad news (ever) the seed sown by the sower is the same , the effect is different sure , depending upon the ground being prepared .

The same sun that softens hardens .
smiley_emoticons_ugly_gruebel.gif


Calvin’s commentary on 2 Corinthians 2:15,16:

Here we have a remarkable passage, by which we are taught, that, whatever may be the issue of our preaching, it is, notwithstanding, well pleasing to God, if the Gospel is preached, and our service will be acceptable to him; and also, that it does not detract in any degree from the dignity of the Gospel, that it does not do good to all; for God is glorified even in this, that the Gospel becomes an occasion of ruin to the wicked, nay, it must turn out so. If, however, this is a sweet odor to God, it ought to be so to us also, or in other words, it does not become us to be offended, if the preaching of the Gospel is not salutary to all; but on the contrary, let us reckon, that it is quite enough, if it advance the glory of God by bringing just condemnation upon the wicked. If, however, the heralds of the Gospel are in bad odor in the world, because their success does not in all respects come up to their desires, they have this choice consolation, that they waft to God the perfume of a sweet fragrance, and what is to the world an offensive smell, is a sweet odor to God and angels.

The term odor is very emphatic. “Such is the influence of the Gospel in both respects, that it either quickens or kills, not merely by its taste, but by its very smell. Whatever it may be, it is never preached in vain, but has invariably an effect, either for life, or for death.” But it is asked, how this accords with the nature of the Gospel, which we shall find him, a little afterwards, calling the ministry of life? (2 Corinthians 3:6.) The answer is easy: The Gospel is preached for salvation: this is what properly belongs to it; but believers alone are partakers of that salvation. In the mean time, its being an occasion of condemnation to unbelievers — that arises from their own fault.
 
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How can we, born reprobate and filthy sinners, ever choose good? We will always choose evil in our natural state. We can NEVER choose God. He elects us.

God, through His sovereign election, chooses some to salvation and condemns others to damnation.

To say we are capable of saving ourselves defeats God. If He "desires" all to salvation, then that doesn't make Him God. It limits Him. God cannot be limited. God is sovereign. "I am that I am".
 
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