General Call or Free Offer?

[the particular baptist]

come to think of it , that video is the final straw , I'll stick with Bunyan , Spurgeon ,Pink and Calvin (and a hundred others including all the Puritans)

Most Puritans were legalists who pointed believers to Sinai. Bunyan was an advocate for preaching the gospel to all as the Spirit leads, as am i, not duty-faith, and he certainly didnt teach a god that was schizophrenic who had conflicting wills. Spurgeon had freewill worshipers in his pulpit (Moody/Sankey) so it goes to reason...Calvin isnt the final authority, the Bible is, and if i were a preacher during his time he would have put me in prison (if he wanted to be nice, otherwise death) for re-baptizing.

 

[JM]

For the offer of salvation to be "well meant" and legit, it has to have something to offer, that means Christ had to purchase atonement for those who are eventually lost.

This is universalism, connect the dots...

 

[hedrick]

Most Puritans were legalists who pointed believers to Sinai.

The more reliable accounts I've read of the Puritans say that they were not legalists, and in fact considered legalism a danger. They were, however, highly disciplined by modern standards.

I'm not proposing to reinstitute the Puritan disciplines in the modern Church. But a lot of their work is still well regarded. I'd don't want to see people write them off as extremists, and thus cut off a major portion of the Reformed tradition.

 

[JM]

I get the impression many of the latter Puritans were fruit inspectors, they were busy looking over the fence at their neighbours and couldn't mind their p's and q's. (pints and quarts).

The early Puritans were too busy running from Church of England officials to play peeping Tom.

jm

 

[Osage Bluestem]

For the offer of salvation to be "well meant" and legit, it has to have something to offer, that means Christ had to purchase atonement for those who are eventually lost.

This is universalism, connect the dots...

I agree. Very well stated.

 

[JM]

Come on...the peeping Tom comment was funny...lol

 

[the particular baptist]

The more reliable accounts I've read of the Puritans say that they were not legalists, and in fact considered legalism a danger. They were, however, highly disciplined by modern standards.

I'm not proposing to reinstitute the Puritan disciplines in the modern Church. But a lot of their work is still well regarded. I'd don't want to see people write them off as extremists, and thus cut off a major portion of the Reformed tradition.

I have high regard for many of their works, and some puritans are on my bookshelves. If you would like quotes from puritans that insisted that believers are under the law i would be happy to post them.

 

[ReformedChapin]

I have high regard for many of their works, and some puritans are on my bookshelves. If you would like quotes from puritans that insisted that believers are under the law i would be happy to post them.

I just came into this post but define "under the law." We are still to follow the law any reformed theologian will tell you that other than you are left with antinomianism.

Please post them and in their original context.

 

[JM]

I think tpb is referring to the 3rd use of the Law.

 

[ReformedChapin]

I think tpb is referring to the 3rd use of the Law.

I would just like clarification. Not sure what is the "3rd use of the law."

 

[Osage Bluestem]

I don't believe we are under the law. We are free in Christ.

 

[hedrick]

I would just like clarification. Not sure what is the "3rd use of the law."

Whether we are "under the law" depends upon what you mean. Yes, the law still has its uses. No, our salvation doesn't depend upon it and thus we aren't legally bound.

The 3 uses of the law are attempts by the Reformers to define in what sense the Law still applies. Wikipedia quotes the Book of Concord (Lutheran):

* that "thereby outward discipline might be maintained against wild, disobedient men [and that wild and intractable men might be restrained, as though by certain bars]"

* that "men thereby may be led to the knowledge of their sins"

* that "after they are regenerate. . .they might. . .have a fixed rule according to which they are to regulate and direct their whole life"

Of these, only the 3rd applies to the Christian life. Basically the third use says that the Law shows us how to act. But our motivation isn't legal, i.e. we do the right thing because we love God and our neighbor, and the Law helps us understand what that means.

The first use refers to the Law as the basis for civil justice, and the second to its use in convicting us of our sins.

Westminster: "Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly ..."

The third use has always been the most controversial within the Reformation tradition. There's a fine line between legalism and antinomianisn.

 

[the particular baptist]

I just came into this post but define "under the law." We are still to follow the law any reformed theologian will tell you that other than you are left with antinomianism.

Please post them and in their original context.

I am not an antinomain. The law of faith, the law of the Spirit of Christ, the law of the gospel is my rule of life. I'd like one quote in the NT that clearly states that believers are under the law of Sinai.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Whether we are "under the law" depends upon what you mean. Yes, the law still has its uses. No, our salvation doesn't depend upon it and thus we aren't legally bound.

The 3 uses of the law are attempts by the Reformers to define in what sense the Law still applies. Wikipedia quotes the Book of Concord (Lutheran):

* that "thereby outward discipline might be maintained against wild, disobedient men [and that wild and intractable men might be restrained, as though by certain bars]"

* that "men thereby may be led to the knowledge of their sins"

* that "after they are regenerate. . .they might. . .have a fixed rule according to which they are to regulate and direct their whole life"

Of these, only the 3rd applies to the Christian life. Basically the third use says that the Law shows us how to act. But our motivation isn't legal, i.e. we do the right thing because we love God and our neighbor, and the Law helps us understand what that means.

The first use refers to the Law as the basis for civil justice, and the second to its use in convicting us of our sins.

Westminster: "Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly ..."

The third use has always been the most controversial within the Reformation tradition. There's a fine line between legalism and antinomianisn.

Nice post. I would only disagree that there is no fine line between legalism and antinomianism, there is a wide gulf. I abhor legalism in all its forms where as antinomianism is at least somewhat closer to the notion of Christs atonement securing salvation regardless of the feeble attempts of man to earn favor with God through obeying OT law.

BTW I reject both doctrines.

 

[JM]

If you deny the Law and live like Satan you are Antinomian and I don’t know anyone who claims to be a Christian who does this. I do find a whole lot of believers that take a theologoically Antinomian position. What I mean is, lots of folks will tell you that you are free from the moral Law completely, but not one of the would willingly break one of the 10 Commandments…so their position is purely academic and theological. I will not enter into a debate about the Law but wanted to post a few comments from Dr. Gill’s sermon titled The Law Established by the Gospel.


“By the law, I apprehend, we are to understand not the ceremonial law, that law which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances imposed on them, the Jews, until the time of reformation; (Hebrews 9:1) that is, the gospel dispensation, or times of the Messiah; which law only had a shadow of good things to come, but not the very image of the things; and could never, by its daily or yearly sacrifices, make the comers thereunto perfect; (Hebrew 10:1) and therefore there was a disannulling of the commandment, for the weakness and unprofitableness of it. (Hebrews 7:18) This law is indeed made void and useless; Christ has broken down the middle wall of partition which stood between, separated and distinguished between Jew and Gentile; he has abolished in his flesh the enmity, that which was the cause of so much enmity between the people of Israel and the nations of the world, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; (Ephesians 2:14, 15)”


“But by the law in this our text, I judge, the moral law is intended; that law which was written in Adam’s heart in innocence; some remains of which are to be observed in fallen man, and even among the Gentiles, destitute of a divine revelation; and because of the depravity of human nature, and the treachery of human memory, and because this law was so much obliterated, and almost erased out of the hearts of men; a new edition of it was delivered to Moses in writing, calculated particularly for the people of the Jews; and which is opposed unto, and contradistinguished from the gospel of Christ; the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (John 1:17) The sum of this law is love to God and to our neighbour; and is established by sanctions of rewards and punishments, promising life in case of obedience, and threatening with death in case of disobedience.”


“…believers, or such as have true faith in Christ and his righteousness, are the only persons that are capable of yielding spiritual obedience to the law, or of performing good works in a spiritual manner.”


“God hath before ordained that we should walk in them; (Ephesians 2:10) they must be made new creatures, and put on the new man; which after God is created in, unto righteousness and true holiness; (Ephesians 4:24) and such as are born again, who have the Spirit of Christ within, them, the grace of Christ bestowed on them, and particularly, have the grace of faith, and that in exercise, are best qualified for doing works of real righteousness, and acts of true holiness: of all men in the world, such as have believed in Christ, as the Lord their righteousness and strength, ought to be careful to maintain good works for necessary uses; and these, indeed, are zealous of them, and are heartily desirous of performing more than they do, to testify their love to Christ, and to adorn his doctrine: which doctrine of grace teaches them, that denying ungodliness and worldly lust, they should live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world. (Titus 3:8 and 2: 11, 12)”


“That the law, as a covenant of works, is abolished, and done away; in this sense, it is made void to believers. Adam was a covenant head and representative of all his posterity, in which he was a figure of him that was to come; the law was given to him and to all mankind in him, promising life on condition of obedience, and threatening with death in case of transgression. Adam soon broke this covenant, whereby sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men! for in him all have sinned, (Romans 5:12, 14) God’s elect themselves not excepted. These were considered in Adam, their natural and federal head; they sinned in him, and fell with him; the sentence of death passed on them as on others; the reason why it was not, and never will he executed upon them is, because Christ, in the everlasting covenant, became their surety and substitute: engaged to bear the punishment of their sins, and make satisfaction to the law and justice of God for them; which he has done by his sufferings and death; and so has delivered them from the law, as a covenant of works; and from all that misery, destruction and death, it entailed upon them wherefore they are not under the law, as a covenant of works, but under grace, the covenant of grace.”


“In this view of the law, how amiable and lovely must it look in the eyes of saints; they cannot but delight in it, as satisfied by Christ, and take pleasure in obeying it, as it is in his hands; the language of their souls is that of’ David’s O how I love thy law! it is my meditation all the day. (Psalm 119:97)”

 

[the particular baptist]

If you deny the Law and live like Satan you are Antinomian and I don’t know anyone who claims to be a Christian who does this. I do find a whole lot of believers that take a theologoically Antinomian position. What I mean is, lots of folks will tell you that you are free from the moral Law completely, but not one of the would willingly break one of the 10 Commandments…so their position is purely academic and theological. I will not enter into a debate about the Law but wanted to post a few comments from Dr. Gill’s sermon titled The Law Established by the Gospel.


“By the law, I apprehend, we are to understand not the ceremonial law, that law which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances imposed on them, the Jews, until the time of reformation; (Hebrews 9:1) that is, the gospel dispensation, or times of the Messiah; which law only had a shadow of good things to come, but not the very image of the things; and could never, by its daily or yearly sacrifices, make the comers thereunto perfect; (Hebrew 10:1) and therefore there was a disannulling of the commandment, for the weakness and unprofitableness of it. (Hebrews 7:18) This law is indeed made void and useless; Christ has broken down the middle wall of partition which stood between, separated and distinguished between Jew and Gentile; he has abolished in his flesh the enmity, that which was the cause of so much enmity between the people of Israel and the nations of the world, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; (Ephesians 2:14, 15)”


“But by the law in this our text, I judge, the moral law is intended; that law which was written in Adam’s heart in innocence; some remains of which are to be observed in fallen man, and even among the Gentiles, destitute of a divine revelation; and because of the depravity of human nature, and the treachery of human memory, and because this law was so much obliterated, and almost erased out of the hearts of men; a new edition of it was delivered to Moses in writing, calculated particularly for the people of the Jews; and which is opposed unto, and contradistinguished from the gospel of Christ; the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (John 1:17) The sum of this law is love to God and to our neighbour; and is established by sanctions of rewards and punishments, promising life in case of obedience, and threatening with death in case of disobedience.”


“…believers, or such as have true faith in Christ and his righteousness, are the only persons that are capable of yielding spiritual obedience to the law, or of performing good works in a spiritual manner.”


“God hath before ordained that we should walk in them; (Ephesians 2:10) they must be made new creatures, and put on the new man; which after God is created in, unto righteousness and true holiness; (Ephesians 4:24) and such as are born again, who have the Spirit of Christ within, them, the grace of Christ bestowed on them, and particularly, have the grace of faith, and that in exercise, are best qualified for doing works of real righteousness, and acts of true holiness: of all men in the world, such as have believed in Christ, as the Lord their righteousness and strength, ought to be careful to maintain good works for necessary uses; and these, indeed, are zealous of them, and are heartily desirous of performing more than they do, to testify their love to Christ, and to adorn his doctrine: which doctrine of grace teaches them, that denying ungodliness and worldly lust, they should live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world. (Titus 3:8 and 2: 11, 12)”


“That the law, as a covenant of works, is abolished, and done away; in this sense, it is made void to believers. Adam was a covenant head and representative of all his posterity, in which he was a figure of him that was to come; the law was given to him and to all mankind in him, promising life on condition of obedience, and threatening with death in case of transgression. Adam soon broke this covenant, whereby sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men! for in him all have sinned, (Romans 5:12, 14) God’s elect themselves not excepted. These were considered in Adam, their natural and federal head; they sinned in him, and fell with him; the sentence of death passed on them as on others; the reason why it was not, and never will he executed upon them is, because Christ, in the everlasting covenant, became their surety and substitute: engaged to bear the punishment of their sins, and make satisfaction to the law and justice of God for them; which he has done by his sufferings and death; and so has delivered them from the law, as a covenant of works; and from all that misery, destruction and death, it entailed upon them wherefore they are not under the law, as a covenant of works, but under grace, the covenant of grace.”


“In this view of the law, how amiable and lovely must it look in the eyes of saints; they cannot but delight in it, as satisfied by Christ, and take pleasure in obeying it, as it is in his hands; the language of their souls is that of’ David’s O how I love thy law! it is my meditation all the day. (Psalm 119:97)”

I am persuaded in my mind that it is the truth as it is in Jesus, and find some agreement with Dr. Gill on this subject. I have to look at the larger context of the following quote by Gill “…believers, or such as have true faith in Christ and his righteousness, are the only persons that are capable of yielding spiritual obedience to the law, or of performing good works in a spiritual manner.” If He means it in the sense that in regeneration God wrote His Law, that is, His will, on our hearts, then i am in complete agreement with him.

 

[the particular baptist]

JM, have you ever read The Rule And Riddle or The Believers Rule Of Life by
Huntington ? I own the hard copy but i read it here long before i bought it.

 

[JM]

I read the collected quotes from The Rule and the Riddle. Huntington is not easy to read, he often confuses me with his verbose and ponderous style. His work The Kingdom of Heaven Taken by Prayer is well worth the effort.

 

[the particular baptist]

I read the collected quotes from The Rule and the Riddle. Huntington is not easy to read, he often confuses me with his verbose and ponderous style. His work The Kingdom of Heaven Taken by Prayer is well worth the effort.

I read Taken by Prayer. I was fortunate to find 3 hardback Gospel Standard volumes of his works on ebay for a steal. The rest of his works i bought softcover from gospel mission books.

Take a good look at what he has to say in Rule and Riddle. I read it three times, once online and twice with the book.

 

[JM]

Let's start a new thread to continue a discussion on the Law.