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General anesthesia and consciousness

trophy33

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Anesthesia is a deep sleep where even pain isn't felt during sleep.
 
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All Becomes New

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No one says NDEs don't exist. People who approach death-like states have reported experiences. Some of us just don't think they mean anything other than the brain does weird stuff when you deprive it of oxygen, etc.

You can't know something it is impossible to know if it is just brain states going wonky.
 
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partinobodycular

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You can't know something it is impossible to know if it is just brain states going wonky.

Bingo!!! Try to remember that. Without credible and verifiable evidence it's impossible to know if NDE's are really evidence for life after death, or just the dying brain going wonky. Unfortunately in such cases personal testimony, while quite compelling, may be nothing more than a person waking up from what is akin to a vivid dream.

The takeaway here is that the brain can do some really weird stuff, and memories... especially those of the recently dead have to be taken with a very large grain of salt. So unless you have some verifiable evidence... I mean beyond stories of a woman who remembered a 12 digit number, then no matter how many Youtube videos there are, they don't constitute evidence.

So find me some actual verifiable evidence, from a reputable study... of which there have reportedly been a great many... and then we can talk. But until then they're just stories, no matter how convincing they may seem.

Otherwise you're absolutely right, we can't know what we can't know. Remember that fact and you'll be fine.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The thing with NDEs is that anecdotal stories and reports all demonstrate a high diversity of experiences. If every single alleged NDE shared something identical--regardless of the individual's views and life circumstances (religious views, the culture they lived in, etc) that could (emphasis on could) indicate something worth investigating further.

But it appears that NDEs are all flavored by the individual's own experiences during their life, and so they see images and experiences which reflect how they experienced the world. So in a predominantly Christian society, images that reflect something nominally Christian are common. For a person with little to no experience of anything remotely Christian, they are going to experience something different.

Given the anecdotal nature of NDEs, and the deep problems of hearsay, "There once was a person who said they knew someone who had a friend who experienced X, Y, and Z"; and just how wildly different and subjective such experiences seem to be. I don't see any reason to think they are anything other than a purely subjective mental phenomenon. That NDE's are purely subjective mental phenomenon does not invalidate the existence of life after death; but neither does it demonstrate as evidence for life after death. Life after death being something untouchable by science, and remains entirely within the realm of faith.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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All Becomes New

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Is there no life after death? I would think every Christian who has actually studied NDEs would see they fit very nicely with the Christian worldview. In fact, as far as you point out that NDEs simply reflect the culture, this is simply not true. See this video for more.

 
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ViaCrucis

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Right, what is your REASON for doubting the story? Is it because you don't WANT to believe it is true?

What reasons do you have for doubting stories which might be put forward to corroborate religious views contrary to your own? For example, what reason do you have for doubting that the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to a small child in Guadalupe? Catholics believe this--so there are Christians who believe this, do you (though non-Catholic) believe this? If not, why not? What would your reason be for doubting it. Is it because you don't want to believe it is true?

We can expand this more further afield. What reasons do you have for not believing the experiences reported by, say, Buddhists when they have NDEs which might confirm Buddhist beliefs about what happens after death?

For a person who isn't a Christian, there is no more reason to believe a story that allegedly confirms the verity of Christianity than there is to believe a story that allegedly confirms the verity of another religion or spiritual tradition. And you, and I, aren't going to just go around believing every story, every claim--because of course we're not.

I don't believe every story that I hear about reported miracles. Why? Is it because I deny that miracles can happen? Of course not. But I'm not just going to believe something because someone told me a story.

I don't put my faith in everything. That would be madness. And neither do you.

So if you are going to present something as evidence, it has to actually be demonstrative, it can't just be an anecdote, hearsay, a story. You wouldn't accept stories supporting religious views contrary to your own without something substantive to back it up; so why expect others to do what you yourself wouldn't do?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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All Becomes New

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Catholics believe this--so there are Christians who believe this, do you (though non-Catholic) believe this?

I do actually believe these things.

What reasons do you have for not believing the experiences reported by, say, Buddhists when they have NDEs which might confirm Buddhist beliefs about what happens after death?

Do you have an example you can point to? I believe in NDEs so I believe people of other religions can certainly experience something in an NDE.

And you, and I, aren't going to just go around believing every story, every claim--because of course we're not.

Human testimony is to be believed until there is a reason not to.

You wouldn't accept stories supporting religious views contrary to your own without something substantive to back it up; so why expect others to do what you yourself wouldn't do?

But I would!
 
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ViaCrucis

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Is there no life after death?

The Scriptures teach that between bodily death and bodily resurrection we shall be in the Lord's presence. I believe that because it is what the Scriptures teach, and it's what the Christian Church has always confessed.

NDEs are meaningless to me in that regard.



And I offer this:


Not culture, necessarily; as this paper argues that it is about what one expects about death. Expectations, informed by our environment and life experiences, etc, seem to play a huge role in what a person experiences in an NDE. Which is why in these Thai NDEs Buddhist imagery of messangers from Lord Yama (the lord of the underworld) and themes of karmic merit are consistent themes.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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All Becomes New

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The Scriptures teach that between bodily death and bodily resurrection we shall be in the Lord's presence. I believe that because it is what the Scriptures teach, and it's what the Christian Church has always confessed.

The scriptures are just personal testimonies put on paper. You believe the personal testimony that Christ was raised from the dead. You haven't seen the risen Christ yourself, I assume, so you have to believe it based on personal testimony.
 
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ViaCrucis

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So you believe everything you hear?

So you believe that Muhammad is the Prophet of God, that the Qur'an was given to Muhammad from God, and that it is the final and full revelation for the world? And you believe that Prince Siddhartha achieved enlightenment while contemplating the meaning of suffering while under the Bodhi Tree? And you believe the Sri Krishna was the eighth avatar of Lord Vishnu? And you believe that mighty Zeus reigns atop Mt. Olympus, and that you can die a courageous death and go to Valhalla to be welcomed and feast with wise old Odin? You believe it all?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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The scriptures are just personal testimonies put on paper. You believe the personal testimony that Christ was raised from the dead. You haven't seen the risen Christ yourself, I assume, so you have to believe it based on personal testimony.

Right. But like I said, I don't believe everything. I have faith in the Christian confession concerning Jesus of Nazareth as Christ, Lord, and Son of God. I take that on faith.

I don't take everything on faith, I don't believe everything.

And I still strongly doubt that you believe literally everything.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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All Becomes New

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As I said, personal testimony is to be believed until there is a reason not to. I'm consistent in this. Yes, I believe other religions experience supernatural things because we live in a supernatural universe. You seem to have an aversion to believing in the supernatural. So why are you a Christian which is a religion that must be understood through a lens that the supernatural exists?
 
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All Becomes New

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And I still strongly doubt that you believe literally everything.

Of course, I don't believe everything. I believe things until there is a reason not to.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I hold that it is better to ascribe to human psychology most experiences than to assume a supernatural cause. Not because I deny the supernatural, but because what I believe is shaped by a religious conviction rooted in a shared Christian confession stretching back two millennia. Why I believe this, and not others, is something that I would be answering biblically and theologically, not epistemologically. I do not believe reason can attain faith. Further explanation than that would be better discussed in one of the theology boards--as it isn't relevant here.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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All Becomes New

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I am a billionaire.

Right, so I have reason not to believe you. That is because billionaires are rare and you say this after I have just said I believe things until there is a reason not to as if to say that I should believe you to be consistent. In short, this post is an argument against my position that I can't possibly hold that view.

But perhaps you are a billionaire. I just don't know your financial status.
 
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Tinker Grey

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But perhaps you are a billionaire. I just don't know your financial status.
So you believe me, right? Billionaires do exist and of the 735 in the world, one or more certainly could be here. And, I could be that one. Your default position is to believe, right?

If you can reason that there might a case that I am not a billionaire and that is sufficient for you, why isn't the doubts expressed in this thread about NDEs sufficient for you to doubt? I suggest motivated beliefs.
 
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All Becomes New

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is shaped by a religious conviction rooted in a shared Christian confession stretching back two millennia.

But this same religion affirms the supernatural. Some things are just psychology tricks. Of course, I believe that as I have studied Jung and others in the psychological field. But some things cannot be explained merely by psychology. All I need is one example that cannot be explained by psychology for NDEs to be true after-death experiences. OTOH, you need to have a psychological reason for each and every NDE anyone ever experiences for your view to be true.
 
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All Becomes New

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IDK if I believe that you are a billionaire or not. There are 8 billion people in the world and only 735 billionaires, so it would be unlikely that you are actually a billionaire. But IDK that. And you used this as an argument against my position so I have even more reason not to believe you.
 
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