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GBLTI Marriage - What's the worst that could happen?

TheDag

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Which is why we do not promote any sin (2 John 1:11) nor do we take part in allowing sinful practices to be set up (Matt 18:7).
except we do seem to be quite happy with allowing greed. i don't hear christians talking much against greed and wealth for the sake of wealth. That is a sin yet we make homosexuality a big deal. As others have pointed out what about adultery. There wasn't a massive over decade long rally against adultery. What it comes down to is you can not legislate behaviour. people will still do what they want - legal or not. What we as christians are supposed to do is witness and be a light to the world. Ideally people should look at us christians and say hey they have something special I don't have and I want that.

I personally think it is too much of a stretch to interpret Mat 18:7 the way you have. I think it is talking more about actively encouraging a person to sin. Simply allowing a law to be passed is not doing that in my opinion.
 
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TheDag

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Can you provide a link for the study that supports this claim? Not commenting on if it is right or wrong but last I heard the only study supporting it was done by a guy who had been found guilty of scientific fraud and the gay community/lobby were actually distancing themselves from that study. I haven't actually heard of any since. Would make interesting reading. Everytime I have asked this before people respond with arguments like why wouldthey put themselves in a position where they could be abused if it wasn't a choice. While that is a nice argument it is not evidence. When the same argument is applied to other things the same people who quote that line reject the reasoning. So for me I can't believe it is how they are born as I have not seen evidence of that. having said that though it does not mean much because like their is genetics that can contribute to a person being overweight they can still choose to do things so they aren't like diet choices and exercise. Similar is gene that makes some people more vulnerable to addictions however that does not mean that if you have that gene you will be an addict of some sort. So even with genetics there is still a choice involved generally.
 
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AnthonyB

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Well I'm from the US and the only people showing themselves off are the straight women who do it for those cheap plastic beads.

You can stereotype all you want but the fact of the matter is that gay people are more than just their sexuality and they deserve the same rights as straights.


Andy and TheDag,

I don't believe that all gay people believe in fragrant bodily displays nor am I seeking to generalize. However if the question is put where might the impression for that generalization come from in peoples minds, then the Mardi Gras is a prime suspect. It is not the equivalent to some B grade movie (which I have never seen). The Mardi Gras is the major public expression of gay people that non gay people in Australia are aware of. It is nationally televised. It is how a significant number of gay people clearly choose to express themsleves.
 
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Blackwater Babe

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Andy and TheDag,

I don't believe that all gay people believe in fragrant bodily displays nor am I seeking to generalize. However if the question is put where might the impression for that generalization come from in peoples minds, then the Mardi Gras is a prime suspect. It is not the equivalent to some B grade movie (which I have never seen). The Mardi Gras is the major public expression of gay people that non gay people in Australia are aware of. It is nationally televised. It is how a significant number of gay people clearly choose to express themsleves.
I'll see your Oxford street and raise you a New Orleans, or a Rio, or, if you want to keep it to Australia, how about the Eumundi body art festival? How about the Club X Sexpo they have in all the capital cities? Its so mainstream the major TV and radio stations do their news broadcasts from there for the day.
 
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TheDag

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Andy and TheDag,

I don't believe that all gay people believe in fragrant bodily displays nor am I seeking to generalize. However if the question is put where might the impression for that generalization come from in peoples minds, then the Mardi Gras is a prime suspect. It is not the equivalent to some B grade movie (which I have never seen). The Mardi Gras is the major public expression of gay people that non gay people in Australia are aware of. It is nationally televised. It is how a significant number of gay people clearly choose to express themsleves.
I agree with what Balckwater said but want to add. That is just one day. Many heterosexual people express themselves in similar ways when it comes to clothing everyday yet we don't carry on about that.
 
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AnthonyB

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What a horrible analogy. A person can choose to not do drugs but a gay persons sexuality is a part of them and is not something that they can just "pray away. The sooner everyone understands the faster we can actually progress as a society and accept and love one another for who we are.


andy,

So many people on this debate raise points that I think need further thought/research (including myself) My guess (I have no facts to be honest) is that "if" gay orientaton is biological then it would be on a spectrum (like height, weight) not just a simple gay or not gay thing. Infact I think it likely that there are multiple axis to this whole thing. Gender orientation might be one, with hetreo ond homo at either ends and maybe bi in the middle, Libido levels might be another axis. If that were true it may well be that s gay/low libido person might well be able just pray it away. (Our minds can often overcome our bodily instincts)

I would suggest one other thing, love and acceptance is bit more nuanced to. To love someone does not always mean having to accept all that they do. If someone chooses to follow Jesus command to love your enemies, it does not follow that they should accept all the actions of their enemies.

Let me make it clear, IMHO the bible teaches that God loves gay people. I happen to believe that if there was only one gay person in the world Jesus would still have died for that person. As best as I can I attempt to treat the gays I work with, with respect and diginity they are entitled to as people for whom Jesus died.

This for me is not an easy topic. I believe that as best as I can read it and for reasons that I may not fully understand God does not approve of acts of gay coitus. (To use Sheldon Coopers phrase) I have read a number of explanations supportative of GLTBI practices from a biblical perspective but do not find them to tis point convincing. The thought that through my misinterpretation of the bible, I might be excluding from full fellowship someone whom Jesus accepts, does trouble me.

As for if I should attempt to ensure my views on gay marriage are represented by my governments laws that is for me a very complex discussion that I don't know if a forum of this nature is designed to deal well with. (it is very easy to misunderstand someone's posts etc and many people on this forum from my experience are very combative rather then collabrative, I porbably come across this way, it is the nature of short posts and being not personally present so that the full content of expression not just words are transferred )
 
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AnthonyB

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I'll see your Oxford street and raise you a New Orleans, or a Rio, or, if you want to keep it to Australia, how about the Eumundi body art festival? How about the Club X Sexpo they have in all the capital cities? Its so mainstream the major TV and radio stations do their news broadcasts from there for the day.

Blackwater,

I have never heard of the Eumundi body art festival. I wouldn't choose to attend or watch Carnivale in Rio and I do know people that have gone to Sexpo but their stall has identifiable different and unique in that environment.

If groups choose to make a clear public expression in a repeated way then I don't think it is unreasonable to notice what thay are saying. When Amish wear plain clothing and ride in carriages they send a message about themselves. Now I agree that to generalize from group message to individual is wrong but if a group delibrately chooses to make a public espression then are you saying it shoudln't be noticed?? Surely the Mardi Gra or Carnivale advertises and says something about the groups/cultures invovled.

TheDag,

I think there is difference between how someone for personal expressions dresses and how soemone performing infront of a large crowd chooses to advertise themsleves.
 
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Blackwater Babe

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Blackwater,

I have never heard of the Eumundi body art festival. I wouldn't choose to attend or watch Carnivale in Rio and I do know people that have gone to Sexpo but their stall has identifiable different and unique in that environment.
And lots of homosexual people wouldn't choose to attend or watch the Sydney Mardi Gras either. So if its unfair to mischaracterise heterosexuals because of Carnivale or New Orleans Mardi Gras, then its just as unfair to mischaracterise homosexuals because of one night of the year in Sydney.
 
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Bubblies

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Is it a genes thing? I'll admit there's little conclusive evidence at the moment. It could be hormone exposure in the womb, or something to do with gene expression. Maybe both.
I saw an interesting show on tv about the study of gay twins. That was talking about gene expression, or something similar. Nothing conclusive, just studies they're doing.

To me it doesn't really matter. I mean it'll be interesting to know why gay people are gay when they do figure it out, but it isn't important in influencing my opinion.

Regardless of whether it's right or wrong, this is a secular nation. Besides religious reasons, I've heard no decent ones for why it shouldn't be legal. Ms. Gillard doesn't really say a whole lot about it, but that's probably because she's only against it to keep her conservative voters who don't like her because she's an atheist. Good game play.
 
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Blackwater Babe

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Is it a genes thing? I'll admit there's little conclusive evidence at the moment.
Best evidence at the moment suggests its a bit of both. Genes give one a tendency, and then environmental factors determine to what degree that tendency will be followed. Sorta like height, actually, or any other polygenic trait with variable outcome.

Best way I've heard it described is thus:

Your genes determine the size of your bucket. You environment and upbringing determine how much water it is filled with.
 
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DesertScroll

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except we do seem to be quite happy with allowing greed. i don't hear christians talking much against greed and wealth for the sake of wealth. That is a sin yet we make homosexuality a big deal. As others have pointed out what about adultery. There wasn't a massive over decade long rally against adultery. What it comes down to is you can not legislate behaviour. people will still do what they want - legal or not. What we as christians are supposed to do is witness and be a light to the world. Ideally people should look at us christians and say hey they have something special I don't have and I want that.
Pointing out a fault to justify not doing something isn't a valid argument. Just as not upholding the truth in those situations is wrong, so too is not upholding the truth in the other.

People will still do what they want, but you don't have to promote it. Just like you can't "legislate behavior" but you can promote behavior. Promote what is good, not what is evil.

Light is supposed to make a place visible, just as salt is made to change taste (Matt 5:13-16). If your light does not shine against darkness, your light is out. Just as if your salt does not change the taste, you are no longer salt. People can't see you have something different if you are agreeing with what is around you.


I personally think it is too much of a stretch to interpret Mat 18:7 the way you have. I think it is talking more about actively encouraging a person to sin. Simply allowing a law to be passed is not doing that in my opinion.

Well your not allowing a law to be passed, that would be passive. You are voting for it, being active. You would have helped to place it there.

Letting it be would be voting against it and not taking up arms or not voting at all.


As for encouraging the verse is clear, just the act of the stone coming to be is repudiated. It isn't woe to the man who leads another to a stumbling block, but rather woe to the man through whom the stumbling block comes. It is about the block, not actions against the person who trips. Stepping on it and tripping is up to the person walking.

What a horrible analogy. A person can choose to not do drugs but a gay persons sexuality is a part of them and is not something that they can just "pray away. The sooner everyone understands the faster we can actually progress as a society and accept and love one another for who we are.

We are to deny the self (Matt 15:24) to follow Jesus.
We are not to love the world or the things in it, including the lusts of the flesh, because they are not from the Father (1 John 2:15,16).

How is making homosexuality a physically based condition not a choice to make? Either follow your self or follow Jesus. The analogy was fine. Your understanding of what we are to follow and not follow is in error.

As for loving everyone for who they are... no. We love them because they are God's creation, not the fallen and sinful ways that are of the world. Since God made them male and female, the only other way to get otherwise is through corruption. You don't love corruption, you abhor it (Rom 12:9).

Let them know Jesus loves them and if they follow Him, they will deny their flesh.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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We are not to love the world or the things in it, including the lusts of the flesh, because they are not from the Father (1 John 2:15,16).
That passage always makes me wonder how your God expects humans to procreate. Bit of a stupid thing to claim, isn't it?
 
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TheDag

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Pointing out a fault to justify not doing something isn't a valid argument. Just as not upholding the truth in those situations is wrong, so too is not upholding the truth in the other.

People will still do what they want, but you don't have to promote it. Just like you can't "legislate behavior" but you can promote behavior. Promote what is good, not what is evil.
i realise it isn't valid however my point still stands. Why does the church focus on homosexuality so much and not other sins? it is a very unhealthy balance the church has. Why? The church doesn't seem to want to confront sin so selects some that are easy for most church goers to avoid rather than the ones that are causing all kinds of problems in the church.

As for promoting what is good are you saying promoting a anti-greed view is not promoting what is good? Seems like you are suggesting greed is good. Probably wasn't your intention but that is how it comes across.

Light is supposed to make a place visible, just as salt is made to change taste (Matt 5:13-16). If your light does not shine against darkness, your light is out. Just as if your salt does not change the taste, you are no longer salt. People can't see you have something different if you are agreeing with what is around you.
and one can easily be a light without trying to force their views on others. We are not to try to force our views on others. That is not witnessing. That is not being light. That is not being salt. As you said salt adds flavour. Adding flavour is a good thing. Forcing beliefs on others is not a good thing.


Well your not allowing a law to be passed, that would be passive. You are voting for it, being active. You would have helped to place it there.

Letting it be would be voting against it and not taking up arms or not voting at all.
not allowing a law to be passed is not passive if the proposal has been made. passive would not be doing anything. So voting for or against is being active.
Letting it be would not be voting against it but rather not voting. of course i would not be voting on any law anyway and to the best of my knowledge neither would you. i could be wrong you may be a member of parliament.


As for encouraging the verse is clear, just the act of the stone coming to be is repudiated. It isn't woe to the man who leads another to a stumbling block, but rather woe to the man through whom the stumbling block comes. It is about the block, not actions against the person who trips. Stepping on it and tripping is up to the person walking.
however when read in context it requires actively encouraging the person. Reading the Amplified bible assists in giving a clearer understanding and you can always check that it is correct.

We are to deny the self (Matt 15:24) to follow Jesus.
We are not to love the world or the things in it, including the lusts of the flesh, because they are not from the Father (1 John 2:15,16).
This passage is not talking about sexuality. it is talking of all things. Sensual pleasures. Well a giant screen tv with surround sound can give sensual pleasure. Insisting on living in a waterfront home is sensual pleasure. Lusting in and of itself is not sinful. if it was then Jesus sinned. it depends on what is being lusted after
 
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suzybeezy

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MOD HAT ON

As a reminder:
&#9679; Do not promote homosexuality on Christian Forums. Homosexuality can only be discussed, without promotion, in Christian Communities and Faith Groups. Homosexuality may also be discussed in the Recovery and Ask a Chaplain forums solely for the purpose of seeking support with struggles overcoming same-sex attractions, and homosexual issues.

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PopcornAmy

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I think a lot of people seem to be missing the point about 'rights'. Legalising gay marriage is not a human rights issue.
All people over the age of 16/18, no matter what race, size, gender, or sexual desire have the same rights when it comes to marriage, that is:
You can marry any person you wish who meets the following criteria:
- Not a member of your immediate family
- Not a child under the age of 16
- Not already currently married
- Not a member of the same sex

These rules surrounding marriage do not discriminate against people, they discriminate against behaviour, which is what all laws do. The reason we have these rules surrounding marriage is because adult/child, incestual, polygamous and homosexual marriages do not benefit society. Only the natural marriage that God designed can be considered foundation of society.
 
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DesertScroll

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That passage always makes me wonder how your God expects humans to procreate. Bit of a stupid thing to claim, isn't it?

By living one's life by the word of God. Marriage is good, procreation is good. Its only a problem if you don't read the rest of the Bible.

Not to mention, its fairly irrelevent when discussing secular law.

As a Christian if you can divide your life into secular and religious then you might need to do a little examining. We are to live our lives by faith in Jesus (Gal 2:20). Not just our lives away from the secular world.

Your involvement in the secular world will be by faith in Jesus as well, if one is a Christian.
 
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DesertScroll

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i realise it isn't valid however my point still stands. Why does the church focus on homosexuality so much and not other sins? it is a very unhealthy balance the church has. Why? The church doesn't seem to want to confront sin so selects some that are easy for most church goers to avoid rather than the ones that are causing all kinds of problems in the church.

Then that wouldn't be a very good church would it?

As for promoting what is good are you saying promoting a anti-greed view is not promoting what is good? Seems like you are suggesting greed is good. Probably wasn't your intention but that is how it comes across.
You'll have to point out where greed is coming into what I wrote. Here is the quote you were working from:
Pointing out a fault to justify not doing something isn't a valid argument. Just as not upholding the truth in those situations is wrong, so too is not upholding the truth in the other.

People will still do what they want, but you don't have to promote it. Just like you can't "legislate behavior" but you can promote behavior. Promote what is good, not what is evil.

One can easily promote anti greed legislation. It is done all the time through limitations. Even my local grocery store puts a limit on items I can buy at a sale price.

and one can easily be a light without trying to force their views on others. We are not to try to force our views on others. That is not witnessing. That is not being light. That is not being salt. As you said salt adds flavour. Adding flavour is a good thing. Forcing beliefs on others is not a good thing.

Light automatically makes darkness... retreat. Salt takes a food and makes it taste different. If your witness of Jesus does not make darkness retreat or food taste different... that isn't a witness of Jesus.

We do force our beliefs on others through laws all the time. No one would argue that we force our views on pedophiles. Or force our views on thieves. Or force our views on etc...

The point is a Christian stands for what is right. Which means what lines up with the Bible. What we do not do is take up arms and make our truth to be followed if it is rejected. I will always say abortion is murder, but I won't kill in order to enforce that truth. But I am always a light in that regard. I am always salt. By faith in Jesus.

Always stating truth and voting for truth is a good thing.

not allowing a law to be passed is not passive if the proposal has been made. passive would not be doing anything. So voting for or against is being active.
Letting it be would not be voting against it but rather not voting. of course i would not be voting on any law anyway and to the best of my knowledge neither would you. i could be wrong you may be a member of parliament.
Correct. How is that different from what I said?

Well your not allowing a law to be passed, that would be passive. You are voting for it, being active. You would have helped to place it there.

Letting it be would be voting against it and not taking up arms or not voting at all.
Voting for or against a law is active. Not doing anything is passive.

-Voting for a law that promotes/upholds sin is actively promoting/upholding sin.
-Voting against a law that promotes/upholds sin is actively against promoting/upholding sin.


As for voting for laws...pick your reps wisely.
however when read in context it requires actively encouraging the person. Reading the Amplified bible assists in giving a clearer understanding and you can always check that it is correct.
No it doesn't.

Woe to the world for such temptations to sin and influences to do wrong! It is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the person on whose account or by whom the temptation comes!


The word the Amplified Bible translates as "temptations" is skandalon. It literally means a trap. It isn't "tempting", but "something that is a temptation".

The woe is for "that man through whom the [something that is a temptation] comes!"

So it does not require "actively encouraging the person", but rather actively encouraging the temptation. The verse doesn't speak of an action against a person at all. But an action setting up a temptation/trap/stumbling block.

Example Balaam.

"But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality." Rev 2:14 (see Num 25:1-9)

Balaam taught Balak to place a stumbling stone. So who caused Israel to sin?

"And Moses said to them, "Have you spared the women? Behold, these caused the sons of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, so the plague was among the congregation of the Lord." Num 31:16

The active portion was the women. But "woe to [Balaam and Balak] through whom the stumbling block [came].

Don't promote stumbling blocks, or you will be held accountable.

This passage is not talking about sexuality. it is talking of all things. Sensual pleasures. Well a giant screen tv with surround sound can give sensual pleasure. Insisting on living in a waterfront home is sensual pleasure. Lusting in and of itself is not sinful. if it was then Jesus sinned. it depends on what is being lusted after

Huh?

This passage is not talking about sexuality.
This passage is talking about all things.

How is sexuality not a part of "all things".

And no Jesus did not sin. Because He was not from the world, but from the Father. His flesh was not fallen like ours. He didn't have lustful, self centered flesh. His desires were Godly.

The whole point is, that no matter whatever you lust after, you will do it in an ungodly way. So one must live by God's word in order to make a slave of our bodies (1 Cor 9:27).

Remember the flesh profits nothing (John 6:63). And the flesh is in opposition to the Spirit (Gal 5:17). So yes that verse means exactly what is says. All these verses are in agreement. But your view on the flesh needs to change.
 
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