GBLTI Marriage - What's the worst that could happen?

[joey_downunder]

Yep, those will be some of the potentially mis-translated verses that, in addition to context, probably don't have the meaning you hope for.

If you bother looking at those verse/s then you will see there is a direct link to the actual chapter. People just lluuurrrvvve the excuse "mistranslated" when dealing with verses that expose their sinfulness.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

no it has not been answered. i never asked why people get married. I asked what would be different if they got married. i personally can only think of one thing that would be different and according to arguments used by many that one thing is totally irrelevent.

No, the question you asked is, "What do they gain from being allowed to marry?" It's a different question to "what would be different". And the answer is, same as any other married couple. Legitimacy. A commitment device. Financial benefits - taxes, insurance, etc. Health and prosperity, till death do them part (or whatever else they decide to say for their vows). Sex. Companionship and trust. The list goes on and on.

 

[joey_downunder]

Got some sources for those claims. There is something I want to check.

Had to remove original link.... Aussie unis get your act together and update links!!!!!

 

[Bungle_Bear]

If you bother looking at those verse/s then you will see there is a direct link to the actual chapter. People just lluuurrrvvve the excuse "mistranslated" when dealing with verses that expose their sinfulness.

Picking on just one of those verses - you deny that the context for the verses in Romans is to do with reverting to pagan rituals?

 

[TheDag]

Legitimacy.

de facto couples are seen as legitimate. i doubt it will make a difference. if people are against gay marriage for moral reasons then changing a law will not change the legitimacy or lack thereof in those peoples eyes. Those who support gay marriage don't care and those who don't get married because they think it is a rip off or that you don't need a piece of paper to say you love someone won't see their relationship as more legitimate. So no difference there.

A commitment device.

See previous post about public declaration and divorce. Commitment is simple enough without getting married.

Financial benefits - taxes, insurance, etc.

Seem as your from NZ you may not realise that the Australian government (done by Gillard govt before last federal election) gives same sex couples all the same benefits so no difference there.

Health and prosperity,

getting married automatically guarantees financial wellbeing now? Wow there are many couples who had a wedding but I guess they aren't married. You can have those things without being married so no difference there.

till death do them part (or whatever else they decide to say for their vows).

you want to live in reality now? Sure that is nice and all but at the end of the day if one or both people who are married decide they want out then they will go. There is no stopping them. Same as before marriage if they want out they will go. So no difference there.

Sex.

One can have sex outside of marriage which also includes just the one person so no difference there.

Companionship and trust.

those do not come automatically as a result of getting married. i would say that if you don't have that before you are married then your marriage is doomed to failure
i will add that perhaps you have a different definition of companionship than I do but in any case it is still possible outside of marriage so no difference there

The list goes on and on.

well do go on then

 

[Bubblies]

So Dag, should we just not have marriage at all?

They gain the difference between them and heterosexual couples. Legally at least.

 

[TheDag]

Just to be clear, are you asking for sources or do you have some of your own which you are checking?

i was asking for your sources for the statements you made.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

de facto couples are seen as legitimate. i doubt it will make a difference. if people are against gay marriage for moral reasons then changing a law will not change the legitimacy or lack thereof in those peoples eyes. Those who support gay marriage don't care and those who don't get married because they think it is a rip off or that you don't need a piece of paper to say you love someone won't see their relationship as more legitimate. So no difference there.


See previous post about public declaration and divorce. Commitment is simple enough without getting married.


Seem as your from NZ you may not realise that the Australian government (done by Gillard govt before last federal election) gives same sex couples all the same benefits so no difference there.


getting married automatically guarantees financial wellbeing now? Wow there are many couples who had a wedding but I guess they aren't married. You can have those things without being married so no difference there.


you want to live in reality now? Sure that is nice and all but at the end of the day if one or both people who are married decide they want out then they will go. There is no stopping them. Same as before marriage if they want out they will go. So no difference there.


One can have sex outside of marriage which also includes just the one person so no difference there.


those do not come automatically as a result of getting married. i would say that if you don't have that before you are married then your marriage is doomed to failure
i will add that perhaps you have a different definition of companionship than I do but in any case it is still possible outside of marriage so no difference there


well do go on then

I don't understand the purpose of this reply. My point was not that the reasons for anyone to get married were necessarily rational, nor were they applicable to everyone else who decides to get married.

 

[TheDag]

I don't understand the purpose of this reply. My point was not that the reasons for anyone to get married were necessarily rational, nor were they applicable to everyone else who decides to get married.

Sorry i thought you were responding to my question. The whole point of the question was simply to ask what do they gain from getting married that they don't already get. or phrased differently what will be different in the relationship compared to before getting married. Then the follow up question is why is so much effort put in for nothing? just my view.

 

[joey_downunder]

Picking on just one of those verses - you deny that the context for the verses in Romans is to do with reverting to pagan rituals?

I am sure for every link I found that shows that Paul was referring to all areas of life not pagan rituals you would be able to find one that imagines it's found the loophole.

And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
(John 3:19-20)

 

[TheDag]

So Dag, should we just not have marriage at all?

They gain the difference between them and heterosexual couples. Legally at least.

I have stated previously that I have no objection to gay marriage. So i guess that would make the answer No.

 

[MissIndigo]

Just a quick question.

The GBLTI marriage issue - is it a matter of them wanting the right to a civil union or a marriage?

I'm not sure what others think, but I see a civil union as a completely different thing to a marriage.

My understanding is is :

A marriage is under the eyes of God. A civil union is recognition as a committed life partnership (same commitments as marriage) by the state/country.

So what is wrong with allowing them the right to a civil union so long as they are not married in a religious ceremony?

Imho, we should not harshly judge GBLTI. I might be on my "L" plates (still learning Christianity and seeking God earnestly) but my understanding is that lying, adultery, etc is a sin in God's eyes, as with homosexuality.

So unless we are sinless we can hope to change and repent together with them for our sins and not judge them, for if the people who believe in God shun them and condemn them how can they ever hope to even think of God and the Christians who believe in Him as accepting and understanding of their predicament and their feelings?

 

[MissIndigo]

This pretty well explains my stance on it.

Here's a brain twister for you... since the Bible (arguably) calls homosexual activity a sin, but never mentions gay marriage... would a same sex marriage where the 2 spouses were both abstinent be a sin?

It doesn't specifically says gay marriage is a sin, but it does have many instances only referred to marriage as between a man and a woman.

Though in that respect we say it implies between a man and a woman but not state as a fact.

But then again in law a marriage literally only "begins" if it is consummated hence technically speaking they would not be considered "married" if they did not consummate it.

So I think abstinence within marriage (as the purpose of marriage traditionally was the only way religiously sanctioned way two people could have carnal relations with one another and it not being a sin in the eyes of God and society) basically is a de facto relationship meaning "living in sin" as they are still technically not married.

This would not include imo a marriage that has been consummated and going through a reallllly long dry spell.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

But then again in law a marriage literally only "begins" if it is consummated hence technically speaking they would not be considered "married" if they did not consummate it.

No, that's a Catholic idea. Unconsummated marriages may be dissolved by the Pope. Consummation has no bearing in law.

 

[AnthonyB]

AndyDanielG,

What ever would give me people the idea that gay people are highly sexualized....Can I suggest the few images I have seen of the Sydney Mardi Gra does. Having honestly never watched it only seen the images from the TV news, it seems to be a huge advertisement for publically flaunting bodies with (really bad pun coming here) gay abandon.

 

[AnthonyB]

What is the worst that could happen if gay marriage was allowed?

Persecution and jail time for people who want to maintain traditional Christian marriage. The laws in other countries have protected preist/pastor but not the average church member. The CYC ruling were they were fined $5000 is the tip of the iceberg. Judges with a punitive mindset and clear bias like the judge in that case will payout on people attempting to maintain historical standards.

Gay marriage being forced to be taught as acceptable at all schools including Christian ones and the government money will removed if they don't. My son has been protected from much of the encroaching sexualization of our society. Schools being forced to addresss these issues before I thinks kids are ready for it (eg under 10) is not what I want for my kids.

Increasing in the number of children being raised by non biological parents. Gay marriage will increase the number of gay people wanting families . However at least one parent in a gay couple cannot be a biological parent.

You asked for the worst that could happen, these may not occur but honestly they are some of my concerns. Part of me thinks that a truly secular society would not have marriage at all and leave it to peoples personal religious/philosophical choice.

 

[TheDag]

Persecution and jail time for people who want to maintain traditional Christian marriage. The laws in other countries have protected preist/pastor but not the average church member. The CYC ruling were they were fined $5000 is the tip of the iceberg. Judges with a punitive mindset and clear bias like the judge in that case will payout on people attempting to maintain historical standards.

What case is this? unless a church member was to actively try and prevent a specific gay marriage taking place I'm not sure legal action could be taken.

Gay marriage being forced to be taught as acceptable at all schools including Christian ones and the government money will removed if they don't. My son has been protected from much of the encroaching sexualization of our society. Schools being forced to addresss these issues before I thinks kids are ready for it (eg under 10) is not what I want for my kids.

Christian schools say they maintain the right to refuse to teach stuff that goes against their beliefs. Some religous schools are purely academic while others have a great deal of spirituality involved. if the schools choose not to refuse to teach something that is their choice.

Increasing in the number of children being raised by non biological parents. Gay marriage will increase the number of gay people wanting families . However at least one parent in a gay couple cannot be a biological parent.

Well considering in the past any children with disabilities used to be given to gay parents because it was thought there was no hope for them makes me think there is no right to comment on that. In any case there is no conclusive proof that being raised by a gay couple is worse than biological parents. Any study that suggests there is a difference has a flaw in it. It does not distinguish between biological couples and non-biological couples. they only look at two parents and single parents. They then draw their conclusion from that.

AndyDanielG,

What ever would give me people the idea that gay people are highly sexualized....Can I suggest the few images I have seen of the Sydney Mardi Gra does. Having honestly never watched it only seen the images from the TV news, it seems to be a huge advertisement for publically flaunting bodies with (really bad pun coming here) gay abandon.

Well if you watch the movie private benjamin you could get the idea that all heterosexual couples are highly sexed. of course if you want real life then you only need have worked in numerous places i have worked to hear the conversations and you would come to the same conclusion. may I suggest generalisations are not helpful especially if drawn from a once a year event.

 

[AndyDanielG]

AndyDanielG,

What ever would give me people the idea that gay people are highly sexualized....Can I suggest the few images I have seen of the Sydney Mardi Gra does. Having honestly never watched it only seen the images from the TV news, it seems to be a huge advertisement for publically flaunting bodies with (really bad pun coming here) gay abandon.

Well I'm from the US and the only people showing themselves off are the straight women who do it for those cheap plastic beads.

You can stereotype all you want but the fact of the matter is that gay people are more than just their sexuality and they deserve the same rights as straights.

 

[DesertScroll]

Just a quick question.

The GBLTI marriage issue - is it a matter of them wanting the right to a civil union or a marriage?

I'm not sure what others think, but I see a civil union as a completely different thing to a marriage.

My understanding is is :

A marriage is under the eyes of God. A civil union is recognition as a committed life partnership (same commitments as marriage) by the state/country.

So what is wrong with allowing them the right to a civil union so long as they are not married in a religious ceremony?

Imho, we should not harshly judge GBLTI. I might be on my "L" plates (still learning Christianity and seeking God earnestly) but my understanding is that lying, adultery, etc is a sin in God's eyes, as with homosexuality.

So unless we are sinless we can hope to change and repent together with them for our sins and not judge them, for if the people who believe in God shun them and condemn them how can they ever hope to even think of God and the Christians who believe in Him as accepting and understanding of their predicament and their feelings?

You answered your own question (bolds are mine). Promoting even civil unions for homosexuals does show acceptance and understanding. But it does not promote change and repentance... which is what is required to believe in Jesus. One has to admit one's actions are wrong in the first place in order to have repentance. The acceptance of sin actually drives people from Christ, not to Him.

Which is why we do not promote any sin (2 John 1:11) nor do we take part in allowing sinful practices to be set up (Matt 18:7).

Exactly. These people are consenting adults. Let them love who they want. I feel like straight people just think of gays as highly sexual beings who just lust all day. Gay people are just like straight people, their sexuality is a part of them but it does not define them. The sooner we legalize gay marriage the sooner we can move on to more important issues in everyone's lives!

And voting to legalize gay marriage is helping place a stumbling block for others to trip over (Matt 18:7). Just because an addict wants to shoot up, doesn't mean we help him inject himself. Instead we say, put it down and follow Jesus. As Jesus is the only way that person will get clean.

 

[Born to Watch]

Well I'm from the US and the only people showing themselves off are the straight women who do it for those cheap plastic beads.

You can stereotype all you want but the fact of the matter is that gay people are more than just their sexuality and they deserve the same rights as straights.

Well your from the US, then we accept you as our dictator, All hail our dictator





Do you get sarcasm O great dictator?