Gasp, I'm sort of an Amillennialist!

[Spiritual Jew]

Okay... I usually take aeon's to exegete this stuff... but I will try to drop scripture and move fast.

My personal pet view is that several matters must be understood to follow through...

1- Jonah says this: "But to Jonah this seemed very wrong, and he became angry. 2 He prayed to the Lord, “Isn’t this what I said, Lord, when I was still at home? That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. 3 Now, Lord, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live.”

2- Jesus descended into Sheol to jail break those that were in Ga' Eden, then those that were in the bad place. He broke out the repentant.

3- Sheol is loaded with NEW SOULS, and old Souls that saw the very Holy Spirit of Messiah and Rejected Him

4- God is ensuring that those that Go to the Lake of Fire are 100 percent Judged by their very own ways, words and deeds of the Soul.

So... Zechariah 14 and Joel 3 combine to kick off the matter.

The literal Presence of Satan and Satan's Angels will be about to overthrow Literal Israel and are holding down Jerusalem of the Earth.
- Final Body of Christ that are alive in this carnal realm will get snatched.

As soon as it begins to get EXTRA EVIL, The Body of Christ is Going to Descend from Heaven with Jesus... and that's where Jesus "Super Man Lands" on the Mount of Olives. It's the moment that the Anti Christ is thwarted and kicked out of Israel.

Satan and his pawns will all be aligned against Literal Israel and now... PHYSICAL GOD PRESENT.

The next series of events will be specifically what is known as THE DAY OF THE LORD. SHEOL will be EMPTIED into an event where Satan and JESUS are present in PHYSICAL Form.

Those that are within Sheol will also contain "Unbelieving Israel". My suspicion is that Unbelieving Israel will begin to weep, realizing that IT WAS JESUS ALL ALONG! From within those that the Devil thought were his own ranks... His Army like the seas of the sand will arise a commotion never heard before!

Israel poured forth from Sheol will turn on Satan and ALL of his minions... and fight and flank those rising against LITERAL Israel.....

When the Wicked have fully aligned with Satan, from Sheol and those alive before the emptying of Sheol.... and those of Sheol that have aligned with God are all sorted out... I suspect that God will finally call the WORDS... and.... The very fires of Hell will literally light as the earth outside Israel in the prophetically identified places break open! The wicked will be swallowed by the Long Prophesied Gehenna or Hinnom.

Those left that weren't sealed PRIOR to the Emptying of Sheol will be sorted by Jesus Himself... and however He deems that should occur... ie cowards from the sincere. There are passages in Joel 3 that are rather interesting on that mechanism.

The earth will then be void of wickedness... and God will merge Heaven with Earth... and Bang!

They all lived happily ever after. (something like that... in my humble opinion)

Wow. I don't even know how to respond to this. Are you aware of anyone else who shares you view of these things? Anyway, thanks for sharing it, though.

 

[Grip Docility]

Wow. I don't even know how to respond to this. Are you aware of anyone else who shares you view of these things? Anyway, thanks for sharing it, though.

I'm a mutt! I've searched for it, but haven't found anyone that was like, WOW, I see it that way, too! I mean... ONLY God really knows how it will go, but I try extra hard to sneak peaks whenever I run across it within scripture!

Thank you for your Love and Kindness! It's always wonderful to simply be heard out and Loved in Jesus Christ!

All Love to you in the NAME our Precious Lord, God and Messiah to you Sibling in HIM!

 

[keras]

Jesus reigns over us and Satan has no power over us now.

This statement must come from one who lives in a world quite different from the world I live in. Or they are sadly deluded.
Satan is now, as Paul describes hm: like a roaring lion, seeking those he can devour. WE make the choice between being good, or doing evil.

As for Jesus reigning now: Isaiah 2:1-5, Zechariah 14:16-21 describe how it will be when King Jesus is actually present. Rather obvious He is not yet.
AMill believers simply ignore these proofs, to their discredit.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

What strange magic placed me here? Jude for starters. "Chained in darkness". Revelation 12, Satan is cast out with the angels and bound to earth, which isn't under Christ's ACTIVE Authority, except through the indwelling Holy Spirit of Christ within the Body. In this way, Satan is limited in power, along with his following angels and humans. Also, I believe that we go to heaven, immediately upon death... which indeed places me within the Revelation 20 (early portion of the chapter).

That verse in 2 Peter 3 makes it pretty hard to arrive at any other conclusion!

Am I a theological Mutt? Usually. I've learned to live with it. Discuss, Debate, Inquire, Ignore... Be Loving.

Most of the church fathers believed in physical millenium. Both disciples of apostle John, Ignatius and Pollycarp, were premellianists, so apostle John himself taught physical 1000 years reign of Christ here on Earth.

Furthermore, years always meant years in the Bible. God said Israel will be 400 years im slavery in Egypt, and they were. He said they will be 70 years in exile in Babylon, and they were. Why would we allergorize 1000 years of all the sudden. And when we allergorize the millenium we have to allergorize many things in the Bible, especially in the book of revelation, but then it falls apart. I can give you some examples if you are interested.

Ofc I could be the one who is wrong, and I know one day I will give account to God on this.

 

[Grip Docility]

Most of the church fathers believed in physical millenium. Both disciples of apostle John, Ignatius and Pollycarp, were premellianists, so apostle John himself taught physical 1000 years reign of Christ here on Earth.

Furthermore, years always meant years in the Bible. God said Israel will be 400 years im slavery in Egypt, and they were. He said they will be 70 years in exile in Babylon, and they were. Why would we allergorize 1000 years of all the sudden. And when we allergorize the millenium we have to allergorize many things in the Bible, especially in the book of revelation, but then it falls apart. I can give you some examples if you are interested.

Ofc I could be the one who is wrong, and I know one day I will give account to God on this.

I, also stand with Israel! See, this is the interesting thing. I too, believe that the Body of Christ is the Body of Christ. Unbelieving Israel is baptized into the body of Moses, thus it is Israel and the Body of Moses! Awesome stuff!

I really appreciate your heartfelt and convicted response! Interpretation of eschatology has it's way of being a very wide variety of passage understanding and it indeed seems to bring out differences in the Body, even from those that don't have denomination in them. I genuinely respect the time you've taken to share your understanding and I look forward to the day when we can ask Jesus all of these questions.

All Love to you in the Name of our precious Jesus Christ.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

This statement must come from one who lives in a world quite different from the world I live in. Or they are sadly deluded.

This statement comes from someone who tries to put Jesus in a box and doesn't understand the authority we have over Satan right now. Sad, indeed.

Satan is now, as Paul describes hm: like a roaring lion, seeking those he can devour. WE make the choice between being good, or doing evil.

Again, if we resist him he MUST flee from us. Do you just ignore that? Does he scare you? Are you afraid that he will devour you? Do you think you don't have authority over him? The deluded one is clearly you. You are denying clear scripture which tells us that Jesus reigns now and we have authority over the spiritual enemy now. That scripture is very clear.

As for Jesus reigning now: Isaiah 2:1-5, Zechariah 14:16-21 describe how it will be when King Jesus is actually present. Rather obvious He is not yet.
AMill believers simply ignore these proofs, to their discredit.

You have to resort to misinterpreting Old Testament scripture to deny the clear New Testament scripture that I used to support my view. That says it all about you and your delusions.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Most of the church fathers believed in physical millenium. Both disciples of apostle John, Ignatius and Pollycarp, were premellianists, so apostle John himself taught physical 1000 years reign of Christ here on Earth.

This is not true. Early church father and premillennialist Justin Martyr said this: "I and many others are of this opinion, and believe that such will take place ... but, on the other hand, many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise.

Furthermore, years always meant years in the Bible. God said Israel will be 400 years im slavery in Egypt, and they were. He said they will be 70 years in exile in Babylon, and they were.

Those are not found within scripture that contains a high amount of symbolism like the book of Revelation.

Why would we allergorize 1000 years of all the sudden. And when we allergorize the millenium we have to allergorize many things in the Bible, especially in the book of revelation, but then it falls apart. I can give you some examples if you are interested.

The word "thousand", however, was used symbolically several times in scripture. Here is just a couple examples:

Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations

Psalm 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

 

[keras]

You are denying clear scripture which tells us that Jesus reigns now and we have authority over the spiritual enemy now. That scripture is very clear.

The clear scripture that proves that Satan is the Prince of this world, is Matthew 4:1-7
Belief in Jesus does give us the strength to resist Satan, thats all.

You are wrong and AMill is confused error.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The clear scripture that proves that Satan is the Prince of this world, is Matthew 4:1-7

You are ignoring the context of what we're talking about here. Is he the Prince of you or me? No. You talked about Satan not having power over us at some future time and I'm showing that he has no power over us now. Him having power over others is beside the point.

Belief in Jesus does give us the strength to resist Satan, thats all.

That's all? It says he must flee from us if we resist him. That doesn't mean much to you?

You are wrong and AMill is confused error.

Yet, you are completely unable to prove that. Your arguments are not convincing whatsoever.

 

[Clare73]

So you have come to the conclusion that there is no 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ of Nazareth on earth? And
it is a metaphor for eternity? Just clarifying.

Metaphor for the church age. . .Jn 16:33.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Metaphor for the church age. . .Jn 16:33.

That would not be an Amil. position. The " Church age" is here and now and has been since the Day of Pentecost. It will come to an end on the last day, the Day of the Lord, when all will be resurrected. Some into everlasting life and the rest to condemnation.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

I, also stand with Israel! See, this is the interesting thing. I too, believe that the Body of Christ is the Body of Christ. Unbelieving Israel is baptized into the body of Moses, thus it is Israel and the Body of Moses! Awesome stuff!

I really appreciate your heartfelt and convicted response! Interpretation of eschatology has it's way of being a very wide variety of passage understanding and it indeed seems to bring out differences in the Body, even from those that don't have denomination in them. I genuinely respect the time you've taken to share your understanding and I look forward to the day when we can ask Jesus all of these questions.

All Love to you in the Name of our precious Jesus Christ.

Thank your for you kind words, even when we disagree on eschatology, wish I was bit more like that.

Eschatology is something I study for years. It is not important as Gospel, Salvations etc, but it's a shame when eschatology is completely ignored.

May the Lord's light shine through you whever you go. May He glorify yourself in you so you can always glorify Him. Blessings.

 

[9Rock9]

I'm somewhere between premil and amil.


One hand, I agree with premillennialism on future of Israel and that Satan is not currently bound. On the other hand, I am not committed to idea that the Milennium must be a literal 1,000 years, and accept it could be a long period of time that is unspecified for length.

 

[Grip Docility]

I'm somewhere between premil and amil.


One hand, I agree with premillennialism on future of Israel and that Satan is not currently bound. On the other hand, I am not committed to idea that the Milennium must be a literal 1,000 years, and accept it could be a long period of time that is unspecified for length.

It's such a fascinating thing! If a scripture shifts a belief in a matter, suddenly, this time table can be altered and the whole discussion you are expressing has to take place. I fully empathize with how this occurs! I really appreciate your sharing of this and how you arrived at the conclusion!

 

[Clare73]

That would not be an Amil. position. The " Church age" is here and now and has been since the Day of Pentecost. It will come to an end on the last day, the Day of the Lord, when all will be resurrected. Some into everlasting life and the rest to condemnation.

So that makes me amil?

 

[Grip Docility]

Simplification:

To be Pre Mil is to believe that the "Resurrection" of the Saint's hasn't taken place yet.

To be A-Mil is to believe that the Resurrections of the Saints started with Jesus Christ and is taking place as each Saint dies.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

So that makes me amil?

Amillinislism is no 1000 year reign on earth. That is it.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Simplification:

To be Pre Mil is to believe that the "Resurrection" of the Saint's hasn't taken place yet.

To be A-Mil is to believe that the Resurrections of the Saints started with Jesus Christ and is taking place as each Saint dies.

No, that is not what it means to be an Amillennialist. Or, at least, that is not what a majority of Amils believe. That gives the impression that Amils believe that their bodily resurrection occurs right after death, which is not the case for most Amils. Most Amils and Premils believe that the bodily resurrection of the saints has not yet occurred and will occur when Jesus returns. A minority of Amils as well as all Premils believe that bodily resurrections occur at other times in addition to the day when Christ returns.

Amils generally have two understandings of the first resurrections, but all agree with how someone has part in the first resurrection. I'll explain what I mean.

My view, which many Amils share, is that Jesus Himself is the first resurrection in the sense that He was the first to be bodily resurrected unto bodily immortality (1 Cor 15:20;22, Acts 26:23). So, when Revelation 20:6 talks about having part in the first resurrection it's talking about spiritually having part in Jesus's resurrection when someone becomes spiritually saved.

Another view that many Amils have is that the first resurrection refers to going from being spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:4-6, Col 2:12-13, etc.). So, that is seen as a spiritual resurrection (going from spiritual death to spiritual life).

Either way, both views have the time when someone becomes saved, which occurs when someone goes from being dead in sins to alive in Christ, as being the time when someone has part in the first resurrection. Upon death, the soul of a Christian goes to be with the Lord in heaven and reigns with Him there with the second death having no power over them.

 

[Grip Docility]

No, that is not what it means to be an Amillennialist. Or, at least, that is not what a majority of Amils believe. That gives the impression that Amils believe that their bodily resurrection occurs right after death, which is not the case for most Amils. Most Amils and Premils believe that the bodily resurrection of the saints has not yet occurred and will occur when Jesus returns. A minority of Amils as well as all Premils believe that bodily resurrections occur at other times besides the day when Christ returns.

Amils generally have two understandings of the first resurrections, but all agree with how someone has part in the first resurrection. I'll explain what I mean.

My view, which many Amils share, is that Jesus Himself is the first resurrection in the sense that He was the first to be bodily resurrected unto bodily immortality (1 Cor 15:20;22, Acts 26:23). So, when Revelation 20:6 talks about having part in the first resurrection it's talking about spiritually having part in Jesus's resurrection when someone becomes spiritually saved.

Another view that many Amils have is that the first resurrection refers to going from being spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:4-6, Col 2:12-13, etc.). So, that is seen as a spiritual resurrection (going from spiritual death to spiritual life).

Either way, both views have the time when someone becomes saved, which occurs when someone goes from being dead in sins to alive in Christ, as being the time when someone has part in the first resurrection. Upon death, the soul of a Christian goes to be with the Lord in heaven and reigns with Him there with the second death having no power over them.

I said sort of… and acknowledged my terms and reasons.

The millennium is clearly defined within the first few verses of Revelation 20.

It is impossible to believe that Saints go to Heaven immediately upon death, if one is Pre-Mill by the very terms defined within scripture at the point that I identified.

I am not doctrine of man adherent. I merely point out why I am neither Pre nor Post Mil.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Those are not found within scripture that contains a high amount of symbolism like the book of Revelation.

The plain meaning of a text is always the preferred interpretation. There is a never reason to spiritualize, to allegorize, to try to explain a text away if the plain meaning is clear. Only if the context of the passage gives compelling reason to assume that the language is somehow symbolic or somehow spiritual should we look for other than the obvious meaning. Where the plain sense of Scripture makes good sense, to seek any other sense is nonsense. For that reason, I believe, that millennialism, or premillennialism, meaning Christ will come before the Millennium and establish it, best reflects the correct and consistent understanding of Scripture. Christ will return to earth to judge the world, establish His Kingdom for a thousand years during which Satan will be bound and his demons, Revelation 20 settles this question definitively and there is no other passage in Scripture that suggests any different scenario.

Why do you believe that there is a high amount if symbolism, when anywhere else in the Bible isn't the case? If we start taking things symbolically, it all falls apart. Yes, there are symbols in the book of Revelation, but only few. Let me give you an example. The 144,000, if you take it symbolically and call the 144,000 the Church as I hear amillenialists, then from what tribe do you come from ? Judah? Naphtali? See, it makes no sense. the 144,000 Jewish evangelist in the future - during the 7 year tribulation.

What about the two witnesses? Who are they? I keep hearing that it is symbolic, it is the Church but that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Revelation 11 5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed. 6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.
Does the Church pour fire from them mouth? Does the Church have the power to shut the sky? I think not.

Revelation 11 7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, 8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, 10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. 11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
Was the Church dead for 3.5 days? Did the Church lie on the streets dead and did people rejoice over the Church's dead body, and did the people exchange gifts? See how it makes 0 sense to symbolize these things? There will be 2 prophets, in the future, in the first half of the 7 year tribulation, who will have these powers. Btw which prophet had the power to shut the sky so no rain fell? Elijah. And who had the power to turn water into blood and bring all sorts of plagues? Moses. Elijah and Moses were the two prophets who appeared on the mount of transfiguration with Jesus. Elijah and Moses are the two witnesses.

We should take literal approach to the Word of God unless a passage is clearly meant to be taken otherwise based on its context and verbiage.