Gap Theory; Old Earth Creationism; Genesis 1 & 2

[Benjamin Müller]

I have a question about Genesis 1 & 2.

View the following:

Genesis 1:9-13 And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered into one place, so that the dry land may appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land “earth,” and the gathering of waters He called “seas.” And God saw that it was good. [11] Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth vegetation: seed-bearing plants and fruit trees, each bearing fruit with seed according to its kind.” And it was so. [12] The earth produced vegetation: seed-bearing plants according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. [13] And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

And then this:

Genesis 2:4-6 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made them. [5] Now no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth, nor had any plant of the field sprouted; for the LORD God had not yet sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. [6] But springs welled up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.

In Genesis 1, God created the earth with vegetation, and on the 6th day created man. Here in Genesis 2, it speaks of no vegetation and no man. Although God created the earth and heavens in Genesis 1 over the span of seven days, did his commands take billions of years to be fulfilled then? Is earth in Genesis 2:5 in a molten state? My questions are:

• Where are we chronologically in Genesis 2? And,
  
• If God had created all these things in Genesis 1, where did they go in Genesis 2?
• Does this prove creation was not instantaneous over seven days? And,
  
• If so, which would be more probable: Gap Theory or Old Earth Creationism?

 

[BobRyan]

• Where are we chronologically in Genesis 2? And,
  
• If God had created all these things in Genesis 1, where did they go in Genesis 2?
• Does this prove creation was not instantaneous over seven days? And,
  
• If so, which would be more probable: Gap Theory or Old Earth Creationism?

Bible writers used a summary- then expand on details method of writing in many cases

Gen 2 adds "details" to the timeboxed chronological sequence given in Gen 1 -

So in Gen 2, there is no sun, no moon, no stars, no air, no fish, no birds, no sea etc -- since it is not trying to rewrite Gen 1.

But it points to the 7 day week element

We see in scripture a solid hard-wired link between the literal days in Ex 20 "legal code" and Gen 2 as noted below.

In Ex 20:8-11 we have legal code - very clear, exact and precise.
9 For six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord your God; on it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male slave or your female slave, or your cattle, or your resident who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Gen 2:1-3
2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

And in Gen 1 each day is one single "evening and morning" rather than one eon or one age.

As noted in the OP -- the phrasing above is not how evolution's opposing view is stated in any science text that I know of.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I have a question about Genesis 1 & 2.

View the following:

Genesis 1:9-13 And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered into one place, so that the dry land may appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land “earth,” and the gathering of waters He called “seas.” And God saw that it was good. [11] Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth vegetation: seed-bearing plants and fruit trees, each bearing fruit with seed according to its kind.” And it was so. [12] The earth produced vegetation: seed-bearing plants according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. [13] And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

And then this:

Genesis 2:4-6 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made them. [5] Now no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth, nor had any plant of the field sprouted; for the LORD God had not yet sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. [6] But springs welled up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.

In Genesis 1, God created the earth with vegetation, and on the 6th day created man. Here in Genesis 2, it speaks of no vegetation and no man. Although God created the earth and heavens in Genesis 1 over the span of seven days, did his commands take billions of years to be fulfilled then? Is earth in Genesis 2:5 in a molten state? My questions are:

• Where are we chronologically in Genesis 2? And,
  
• If God had created all these things in Genesis 1, where did they go in Genesis 2?
• Does this prove creation was not instantaneous over seven days? And,
  
• If so, which would be more probable: Gap Theory or Old Earth Creationism?

Genesis 2 refers to the creation of the garden of Eden. It expands on the creation of Adam and Eve. The creation in Genesis 1 has not gone anywhere.

Gap theory, in my understanding (and belief), states that the earth was created long before Genesis 1:2. The earth became formless and empty. The darkness and deep waters were a result of God's judgement on the pre-Adamic creation. I believe that Noah's flood was the second universal flood, not the first. So it is possible for the earth to be much older than the traditional YEC view.

My belief is that Satan was the light of the world prior to Genesis 1:2. When he rebelled against God, he was thrown down to earth and he lost his light. This is implied in Isaiah 14:12. It explains why Satan was so keen to corrupt Adam. Adam was to take Satan's place as the ruler of God's creation. Adam handed over his God-given authority to Satan, so Satan is now the god of this world. But not for much longer......

Genesis 1 is the account of God's restoration of the destroyed earth. There is no need to try and fit the fossil record into 10,000 years or so of human history.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Genesis accounts are not historical. They are figurative.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Genesis accounts are not historical. They are figurative.

How do you know that? Were you there? Did God tell you that He makes things up? What do the accounts actually mean then? Were Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob mythological? If so, how could God be the God of those men? Or is God a myth also?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I have a question about Genesis 1 & 2.

View the following:

Genesis 1:9-13 And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered into one place, so that the dry land may appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land “earth,” and the gathering of waters He called “seas.” And God saw that it was good. [11] Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth vegetation: seed-bearing plants and fruit trees, each bearing fruit with seed according to its kind.” And it was so. [12] The earth produced vegetation: seed-bearing plants according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. [13] And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

And then this:

Genesis 2:4-6 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made them. [5] Now no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth, nor had any plant of the field sprouted; for the LORD God had not yet sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. [6] But springs welled up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.

In Genesis 1, God created the earth with vegetation, and on the 6th day created man. Here in Genesis 2, it speaks of no vegetation and no man. Although God created the earth and heavens in Genesis 1 over the span of seven days, did his commands take billions of years to be fulfilled then? Is earth in Genesis 2:5 in a molten state? My questions are:

• Where are we chronologically in Genesis 2? And,
  
• If God had created all these things in Genesis 1, where did they go in Genesis 2?
• Does this prove creation was not instantaneous over seven days? And,
  
• If so, which would be more probable: Gap Theory or Old Earth Creationism?

I adhere to theistic evolution, and so these questions have answers.
If you read those verses again, you may see, as I do, that God commanded the earth and water to "bring forth" life. The earth itself was empowered to generate life. The earth is God's "bring forth life machine." Now of course elephants and trees did not instantly pop out of the sides of hills. Just as the fossil and genetic record indicate, this occurred over vast periods of time. Hense theistic evolution. God did create all things, but in this instance, He did it over time with his "bring forth life machine."
The record in Genesis 2 relates only to the garden that God planted in the east. You will find there is a great difference between Gen 1 and Gen 2. That is because these are different events altogether. One is the creation of the earth and generation of life in Gen 1 over vast periods of time. The other is the account of Eden and the creation of a new man in Gen 2.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

I don't deny that earth is billions of years old or discount fossil records, I'm just trying to gauge a time-frame of Genesis. In Genesis 2, God creates the Garden of Eden:

Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

However,

Ezekiel 28:12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. [13] You were in Eden, the garden of God; . . . [14] “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. [15] You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.

We know that Satan was in the Garden of Eden as the serpent, but God speaks of him as being an anointed cherub; and that he was the seal of perfection and perfect in his ways, implying that before Satan had rebelled, he was in the Garden of Eden.

Gap theory puts Satan's rebellion at about 6,000 years ago; and the impression I got was that the Garden of Eden is also timed at around 6,000 years ago--yet this shows Eden existed before that.

Is this the proper chronological order:

• Eden was planted;
  
• Satan was there, a seal of perfection;
  
• Satan rebelled.
  
• Eden still exists.
  
• Man is placed in Eden after Satan's rebellion (?)

So how old was the Garden of Eden? If Eden still existed after Satan's rebellion, does that make the Gap Theory moot?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I have a question about Genesis 1 & 2.

View the following:

Genesis 1:9-13 And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered into one place, so that the dry land may appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land “earth,” and the gathering of waters He called “seas.” And God saw that it was good. [11] Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth vegetation: seed-bearing plants and fruit trees, each bearing fruit with seed according to its kind.” And it was so. [12] The earth produced vegetation: seed-bearing plants according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. [13] And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

And then this:

Genesis 2:4-6 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made them. [5] Now no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth, nor had any plant of the field sprouted; for the LORD God had not yet sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. [6] But springs welled up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.

In Genesis 1, God created the earth with vegetation, and on the 6th day created man. Here in Genesis 2, it speaks of no vegetation and no man. Although God created the earth and heavens in Genesis 1 over the span of seven days, did his commands take billions of years to be fulfilled then? Is earth in Genesis 2:5 in a molten state? My questions are:

• Where are we chronologically in Genesis 2? And,
  
• If God had created all these things in Genesis 1, where did they go in Genesis 2?
• Does this prove creation was not instantaneous over seven days? And,
  
• If so, which would be more probable: Gap Theory or Old Earth Creationism?

Genesis 1 is an overall account. Genesis 2 is a more detailed account. We know this because of Eve. She did not come from dust.
Blessings.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I have a question about Genesis 1 & 2.

View the following:

Genesis 1:9-13 And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered into one place, so that the dry land may appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land “earth,” and the gathering of waters He called “seas.” And God saw that it was good. [11] Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth vegetation: seed-bearing plants and fruit trees, each bearing fruit with seed according to its kind.” And it was so. [12] The earth produced vegetation: seed-bearing plants according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. [13] And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

And then this:

Genesis 2:4-6 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made them. [5] Now no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth, nor had any plant of the field sprouted; for the LORD God had not yet sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. [6] But springs welled up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.

In Genesis 1, God created the earth with vegetation, and on the 6th day created man. Here in Genesis 2, it speaks of no vegetation and no man. Although God created the earth and heavens in Genesis 1 over the span of seven days, did his commands take billions of years to be fulfilled then? Is earth in Genesis 2:5 in a molten state? My questions are:

• Where are we chronologically in Genesis 2? And,
  
• If God had created all these things in Genesis 1, where did they go in Genesis 2?
• Does this prove creation was not instantaneous over seven days? And,
  
• If so, which would be more probable: Gap Theory or Old Earth Creationism?

At a simple read, Genesis 2 doesn't say there was no vegetation, but no cultivation of vegetation.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

At a simple read, Genesis 2 doesn't say there was no vegetation, but no cultivation of vegetation.

It says, "Now no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth, nor had any plant of the field sprouted"

That sounds like no vegetation to me.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I don't deny that earth is billions of years old or discount fossil records, I'm just trying to gauge a time-frame of Genesis. In Genesis 2, God creates the Garden of Eden:

Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

However,

Ezekiel 28:12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. [13] You were in Eden, the garden of God; . . . [14] “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. [15] You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.

We know that Satan was in the Garden of Eden as the serpent, but God speaks of him as being an anointed cherub; and that he was the seal of perfection and perfect in his ways, implying that before Satan had rebelled, he was in the Garden of Eden.

Gap theory puts Satan's rebellion at about 6,000 years ago; and the impression I got was that the Garden of Eden is also timed at around 6,000 years ago--yet this shows Eden existed before that.

Is this the proper chronological order:

• Eden was planted;
  
• Satan was there, a seal of perfection;
  
• Satan rebelled.
  
• Eden still exists.
  
• Man is placed in Eden after Satan's rebellion (?)

So how old was the Garden of Eden? If Eden still existed after Satan's rebellion, does that make the Gap Theory moot?

A very quick and simple timeline of events from a TE and my personal thoughts.
1. Billions of years ago, God created the heavens and the earth. He created it to be inhabited, which it was. There were inhabitants, cities, and they were ruled over by satan.
2. At some point in the ageless past, the earth became chaotic. The earth became sterile. This was most likely due to the fall of satan, who is stated to be the god of this world. I.E., the "gap theory."
3. What we see in the "seven days" of creation is actually the restoration of the earth to a habitual form. The earth is empowered by the Word of God to generate life.
4. An animal, or "earth man" evolves from the beasts the earth had brought forth. They had no spirit, only a soul like the animals. The "gods" had a "council" where they decided to elevate earth-man to a level comparable to theirs, i.e., in "their image."
5. God planted the garden of Eden, and created Adam and Eve i.e., "spirit man."
6. Eventually the "spirit men" crossed with the "animal men" and here we are.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

How do you know that? Were you there? Did God tell you that He makes things up? What do the accounts actually mean then? Were Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob mythological? If so, how could God be the God of those men? Or is God a myth also?

It is common sense.
I was not there but then neither was the author or authors of Genesis.
The accounts emphasizes order and goodness. And eventually identity of the Hebrew people.
Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob may very well be mythological, legendary or even part historical.
God is a different order of being. Accounts of interaction with God may also be highly figurative.

 

[Halbhh]

So in Gen 2, there is no sun, no moon, no stars, no air, no fish, no birds, no sea etc

? what? Hmmm, did you leave out a wording like "at first" or something?

 

[Aussie Pete]

It is common sense.
I was not there but then neither was the author or authors of Genesis.
The accounts emphasizes order and goodness. And eventually identity of the Hebrew people.
Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob may very well be mythological, legendary or even part historical.
God is a different order of being. Accounts of interaction with God may also be highly figurative.

That's not much to base faith on. What part of the Bible do you believe to be truth? Jesus quoted the OT often, including a reference to Noah and Abraham. Or do you consider Jesus to be mythological too? Do you believe anything at all?

 

[Aussie Pete]

I adhere to theistic evolution, and so these questions have answers.
If you read those verses again, you may see, as I do, that God commanded the earth and water to "bring forth" life. The earth itself was empowered to generate life. The earth is God's "bring forth life machine." Now of course elephants and trees did not instantly pop out of the sides of hills. Just as the fossil and genetic record indicate, this occurred over vast periods of time. Hense theistic evolution. God did create all things, but in this instance, He did it over time with his "bring forth life machine."
The record in Genesis 2 relates only to the garden that God planted in the east. You will find there is a great difference between Gen 1 and Gen 2. That is because these are different events altogether. One is the creation of the earth and generation of life in Gen 1 over vast periods of time. The other is the account of Eden and the creation of a new man in Gen 2.

Genesis 1 says the opposite to your point of view. I know the arguments about the definition of a day. I don't agree. God instituting the Sabbath makes no sense if Genesis 1 is not literal days.

Theistic evolution is even less sensible than Darwinian evolution. God states clearly in Job 38-41 that He created everything. I don't know why it is so hard to accept God's word. The Bible uses words like create, form, make - not evolve.

The pre-Adamic creation theory answers most questions regarding the age of the earth and the fossil record. If there are problems, it is with our limited understanding, not with God's word.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

That's not much to base faith on. What part of the Bible do you believe to be truth? Jesus quoted the OT often, including a reference to Noah and Abraham. Or do you consider Jesus to be mythological too? Do you believe anything at all?

By the time of the New Testament there is less literary imagination and more historical basis. But even Jesus used parable and analogy so it would be quite nature to refer to Symbols and figures of the Old Testament. I believe Jesus was an actual historic person who taught, suffered, died, was resurrected and ascended.

 

[DragonFox91]

There is a lot of heresy in this thread.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Faith is a straightforward function.
Faith is the evidence of things not seen. We believe in the invisible things and the things past and future that we cannot see or prove.
Faith is not the denial of things that are. If you see something in this world, then you can count on it being authentic. If the creation looks 14 billion years old, it is. If there are strata in the geologic record that indicate the world is billions of years old, it is. I have no fear of being condemned for declaring that what I observe is true. If God is tricking us into believing the universe is 14 billion years old, how will you escape His almighty trickery? If He wants you tricked, you are going to be tricked.
Of course, He is not trying to trick anyone. It is what it is. I am happy with what I believe.

 

[Aussie Pete]

By the time of the New Testament there is less literary imagination and more historical basis. But even Jesus used parable and analogy so it would be quite nature to refer to Symbols and figures of the Old Testament. I believe Jesus was an actual historic person who taught, suffered, died, was resurrected and ascended.

You have no basis whatever for assuming that Genesis is primarily myth and legend. When Jesus taught in parables, it was obvious. He even said so. God is Truth, and He calls Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They are real people, not mythological.

Not understanding something is no basis for doubt. I don't understand calculus, but I don't doubt that it is true.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

I have a question about Genesis 1 & 2.

View the following:

Genesis 1:9-13 And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered into one place, so that the dry land may appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land “earth,” and the gathering of waters He called “seas.” And God saw that it was good. [11] Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth vegetation: seed-bearing plants and fruit trees, each bearing fruit with seed according to its kind.” And it was so. [12] The earth produced vegetation: seed-bearing plants according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. [13] And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

And then this:

Genesis 2:4-6 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made them. [5] Now no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth, nor had any plant of the field sprouted; for the LORD God had not yet sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. [6] But springs welled up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.

In Genesis 1, God created the earth with vegetation, and on the 6th day created man. Here in Genesis 2, it speaks of no vegetation and no man. Although God created the earth and heavens in Genesis 1 over the span of seven days, did his commands take billions of years to be fulfilled then? Is earth in Genesis 2:5 in a molten state? My questions are:

• Where are we chronologically in Genesis 2? And,
  
• If God had created all these things in Genesis 1, where did they go in Genesis 2?
• Does this prove creation was not instantaneous over seven days? And,
  
• If so, which would be more probable: Gap Theory or Old Earth Creationism?

1. Genesis 1 is not chronological , it is theamatic, and Genesis 2 is Adams account of creation from his prespective, while Genesis is Gods account of creation.

2. not sure I understand the question
3. it is possible that the creation week is literal, but it also possible that the weekly cycle is a memorial to the Events of creation.
4. Not necessarily so. it proves that the universe is older then the earth. which would make sense in a cause and effect universe. It also shows that the material matter. older then the age of the ordering of the earth for habitation. so the rocks and dirt might date to an older time then the biological matter.


This goes back to the 5 assumption of Young Earth Creationism in reading Genesis 1.

1. The scripture is the word of God
2. The events are literal and really happened.
3. The events recorded in Genesis happened in a 1 week 24/7 time period vs the week being a memorial to the events.
4. The events are chronological rather then being arranged thematically. (there is a pattern, that is not being taken into account when reading the text).
5. The events are 6000-6500 years old based on the internal calculation of the events of the book. This assumes that all the time is accounted for as preserved by the KJV / Masoratic text record. (this is not accurate)

If you do not accept all five you are not a YEC. I accept 2.5 of them