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GAP Creationism VS YEC & OEC Creationism

Wiccan_Child

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when you follow the geneologies and usshers dating methodology you come to about 6 thousand years old.

Archbishop Ussher

James Ussher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Do you consider Ussher's work to be accurate? He made rather sweeping assumptions regarding the dates of when certain historical figures lived.

I'm also curious as to why you take Genesis literally. And, is there no evidence or empirical data that could sway you from this view? What do you make of things like radiometric dating and the geological column?
 
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createdtoworship

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Do you consider Ussher's work to be accurate? He made rather sweeping assumptions regarding the dates of when certain historical figures lived.

I'm also curious as to why you take Genesis literally. And, is there no evidence or empirical data that could sway you from this view? What do you make of things like radiometric dating and the geological column?


I believe ussher made some assumptions but I believe his chronologies to be fairly accurate within 1000 years or so.

I think there is errors in dating methods of radio metric dating.

The Radiometric Dating Game

the geologic column doesn't exist

http://www.trueorigin.org/geocolumn.asp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrTkm0lOobY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZwtNl_Im6Q&feature=related
 
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I believe ussher made some assumptions but I believe his chronologies to be fairly accurate within 1000 years or so.
The genealogies in the Bible are very easy to follow from Adam to Abraham. A fifth grader could do it. They are a lot more difficult to follow after Abraham, but the Jewish people have all the records from Abraham on, so you can just go by their records. Noah died and Abraham began his ministry 4,000 years ago. Moses lived 3500 years ago. Solomon built his temple 3000 years ago. Then of course Jesus was born around 2015 years ago and began His ministry about ad25.
 
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createdtoworship

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The genealogies in the Bible are very easy to follow from Adam to Abraham. A fifth grader could do it. They are a lot more difficult to follow after Abraham, but the Jewish people have all the records from Abraham on, so you can just go by their records. Noah died and Abraham began his ministry 4,000 years ago. Moses lived 3500 years ago. Solomon built his temple 3000 years ago. Then of course Jesus was born around 2015 years ago and began His ministry about ad25.

interesting, have you done this study? Does it work out?
 
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interesting, have you done this study? Does it work out?
Yes, I have done the math myself, that is why I know how easy it all is. Everything works out just fine. I have always read and studied the genealogys. A lot of people skip over them. But I always figured how are you going to say you read the whole Bible if you skip over parts of it.
 
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createdtoworship

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Yes, I have done the math myself, that is why I know how easy it all is. Everything works out just fine. I have always read and studied the genealogys. A lot of people skip over them. But I always figured how are you going to say you read the whole Bible if you skip over parts of it.

Thats cool, I was wondering about the math and if it worked out okay. but then again ussher is a pretty smart guy with his head on straight.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I believe ussher made some assumptions but I believe his chronologies to be fairly accurate within 1000 years or so.

I think there is errors in dating methods of radio metric dating.

The Radiometric Dating Game
To be honest, I'm not interested in arguing with someone else's website. I want to talk to you, someone I can actually have a conversation with. If you think there are problems with radiometric dating, fine. What problems do you think there are?

Of course it doesn't exist as a single object. That's not what the geological column is. There's no uninterrupted sequence of layers - but the layers exist. No tree is 10,000 years old, but dendochronology can stack these trees up and align them according to very particular patterns of rings, thus creating a sequence that stretches back very far indeed. Similarly, though no one area has all the layers of the column, the layers can be superimposed to remove the effects of weathering and subduction and so forth. There are also phenomena that can strip strata away (glaciers, erosion, etc), and phenomena that lay strata down in some places but not others (e.g., lakes and oceans lay strata down that won't appear in contemporary deserts). These strata are 'missing', but not in any way that geologists aren't very much aware of.

Kent Hovind? The man who demonstrably lies to the people he preaches to (he's been corrected on many issues, acknowledges these corrections, and then goes right on back to making the same mistakes), and who steals money from those preaches to pay for his taxes?

Yeah, I'm disinclined to believe a tax-evading snake-oil salesman, and I'm surprised you would too.

Basically, TalkOrigins has an extensive list of refutations for these various Creationists arguments ("layers of strata are missing", "dates and index fossils were plucked out of a hat 150 years ago", etc), and I won't bother repeating them. The article is here, and it serves as a specific refutation of Hovind's arguments (particularly apt, since you cited Hovind himself), and a general refutation for these sorts of arguments.

So, my point is, your objection to radiometric dating and the geologic column doesn't seem to be based on anything solid, just the persistent lies of a tax-evader.
 
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mzungu

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To be honest, I'm not interested in arguing with someone else's website. I want to talk to you, someone I can actually have a conversation with. If you think there are problems with radiometric dating, fine. What problems do you think there are?
I made a 50 Euro bet with my son that he will give you a copy paste answer from a creo site. My son thinks that he will avoid answering directly. Keeping my fingers crossed........................:crossrc::prayer:
 
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The article is here, and it serves as a specific refutation of Hovind's arguments (particularly apt, since you cited Hovind himself), and a general refutation for these sorts of arguments.
This is what your article says: "by 1815 the broad outlines of the geologic column from Paleozoic times onward had been worked out by people who were mostly creationist geologists."

So did Creationists give us the geologic column. If so than that means creationism has made a very substantial contribution to science according to your article on Talkorigins. Were you the one that was saying that Creationists have contributed nothing? Now your presenting an argument that their contribution has been substantial.

Perhaps it is the skeptic that has made no contribution. All the seeds of doubt and unbelief turn out to be weeds and they never produce any fruit or anything of any value.
 
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Freodin

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This is what your article says: "by 1815 the broad outlines of the geologic column from Paleozoic times onward had been worked out by people who were mostly creationist geologists."

So did Creationists give us the geologic column. If so than that means creationism has made a very substantial contribution to science according to your article on Talkorigins. Were you the one that was saying that Creationists have contributed nothing? Now your presenting an argument that their contribution has been substantial.

Perhaps it is the skeptic that has made no contribution. All the seeds of doubt and unbelief turn out to be weeds and they never produce any fruit or anything of any value.

There is a small but important difference between people believing in Creationism making valuable discoveries... and people USING Creationism fom making valuable discoveries.

There are a lot of examples for the first kind... but if you can find even one example for the second, I would be really surprised.
 
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There is a small but important difference between people believing in Creationism making valuable discoveries... and people USING Creationism fom making valuable discoveries.

There are a lot of examples for the first kind... but if you can find even one example for the second, I would be really surprised.
These are the very same people that give us Creationism. At least they are the ones that developed OEC Creationism and the Day Age Theory. GAP (ruin restoration) says a day is 1000 years. YEC says a day is 24 hours. OEC, GAP & YEC could all be right.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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This is what your article says: "by 1815 the broad outlines of the geologic column from Paleozoic times onward had been worked out by people who were mostly creationist geologists."
Yep.

So did Creationists give us the geologic column.
Broadly speaking, yes.

If so than that means creationism has made a very substantial contribution to science according to your article on Talkorigins.
Incorrect. TalkOrigins says that Creationists devloped the broad outlines of the geologic column from the Paleozoic onwards - but it doesn't say this development was because of their Creationism. A number of Creationists made a contribution to science, not Creationism.

Were you the one that was saying that Creationists have contributed nothing?
No, I wasn't, and I wouldn't say such a thing because I'm well aware of Creationists who have contributed much to science - Newton was a Creationist, after all.

Now your presenting an argument that their contribution has been substantial.

Perhaps it is the skeptic that has made no contribution. All the seeds of doubt and unbelief turn out to be weeds and they never produce any fruit or anything of any value.
Incorrect. A sceptic is anyone who doesn't take things at face value or believe something without due reason. This makes every good scientist a sceptic, every individual who has ever gone "Oh really? Prove it", or "I'll test to see if that's really true", or "So you say, but there's nothing to back it up".

If you think sceptics haven't contributed anything, you really don't know what scepticism is. Every good scientist - which makes up a very large majority of scientists - is a sceptic. Scientists have made enormous contributions, and are often scientists because they're sceptics. Therefore, sceptics and scepticism have made many demonstrable contributions to the world.

What contributions has Creationism given us? Remember, no one cares about people who made contributions and happened to be Creationists. What contributions have been made because of Creationism?
 
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Greg1234

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Of course it doesn't exist as a single object. That's not what the geological column is. There's no uninterrupted sequence of layers - but the layers exist. No tree is 10,000 years old, but dendochronology can stack these trees up and align them according to very particular patterns of rings, thus creating a sequence that stretches back very far indeed.
This however is not about the age of the earth.






Basically, TalkOrigins has an extensive list of refutations for these various Creationists arguments ("layers of strata are missing", "dates and index fossils were plucked out of a hat 150 years ago", etc), and I won't bother repeating them. The article is here, and it serves as a specific refutation of Hovind's arguments (particularly apt, since you cited Hovind himself), and a general refutation for these sorts of arguments.

Anytime someone mentions the geological column, fossil dating methods or out of place fossils, either the age of the earth or Noah's Flood is rung up with very little material dedicated to the essential argument.

The TalkOrigins page is replete with arguments countering Noah's flood despite the fact that whether the Flood was global or not, whether the earth is old or not, the geological column is a Darwinian argument. Those who point to "out of place" fossils or wrong dates are not necessarily addressing Noah's flood or the age of the Earth but the Cambrian-Bunny party and the Seamless-Chronology-proves-Darwinism buffs.

The TO article starts off by immediately creating an age-centric atmosphere ("How Good Are Those Young-Earth Arguments?") Then the aforementioned references to Noah's flood

"If most of the geologic column were created during Noah's flood, would it really matter whether a zircon crystal was found in Cambrian strata or Cretaceous strata, in Jurassic strata or Tertiary strata? Noah's flood might just as easily deposit the same crystal in one place as another."

"For those who believe that each of the geologic periods were laid down in days or weeks by Noah's flood, the mystery has no intelligent answer. For the rest of us, the answer is as plain as daylight."

"For instance, there are many boundaries (unconformities) in the geologic strata that exhibit a sharp change in radiometric age. Thus, zircons that are formed at about the same time in Noah's flood (from intruded magma close to each side of an unconformity, if such quick formation were even possible) would exhibit impossible differences in the decay of their uranium."​

And so forth... How Fossils are Dated, by Glen Kuban

The age of a fossil may be specified in both relative terms (how old it is in relation to other fossils or rock units) and in absolute terms (approximately how many years old it is). One principle of relative dating is called superposition, which holds that in any one place, the lower rock layers (and fossils in them) are older than higher ones, unless there is evidence that the layers have been overturned.
Simple and easy. If you find a Cretaceous fossil (according to the "appropriate" timeline) at Cambrian depth, the earth overturned. There's also intrusive burial where Darwinists arguing for a young age of an old fossil try to show that it's simply a case of the fossil seeping into the wrong strata. But that's not even the most important part.

Absolute dating complements relative dating by providing a specific (not necessarily precise) chronological age for a given specimen, such as "50 million years before present." In recent years reliable forms of absolute dating became available through the development of radiometric dating methods. These methods are based on the known, regular decay of certain radioactive elements (isotopes) into other isotopes or "daughter products." By measuring the amount of "parent" and "daughter" products in a rock sample, its approximate age may be calculated.​

Yet, it doesn't matter if decay shows 20 trillion years here. It's what happens when a 20 trillion year old fossil is determined to be 2 million years old. Or the reliable dating methods are still subjected to bias.

It's not until you get to the near end of the the lengthy TO article, past Noah's-Flood and Earth-age references, do you actually get to substance relevant here. Quoted,

Ernest Conrad goes on to inform us that in 1965 collagen tests demonstrated "that the Castenedolo materials were intrusive burials into the Astian clays." Radiocarbon dating in 1969 by the British Museum placed the cranial fossils in the Holocene. We're dealing with relatively recent fossils and they present no problem for evolution.​

But the bones had been switched with another, ANOMALOUS HUMAN SKELETAL REMAINS

In 1889, an additional human skeleton was discovered at Castenedolo. This find introduced an element of confusion about the discoveries of 1880.

Ragazzoni invited G. Sergi and A. Issel to examine the new skeleton, which had been found in an ancient oyster bed. Sergi reported that both he and Issel believed this new 1889 skeleton to be a recent intrusion into the Pliocene layers because the almost intact skeleton lay on its back in a fissure of the oyster bed and showed signs of having been buried.

But in his own paper, Issel went on to conclude that the 1880 discoveries were also recent burials. In a footnote, Issel claimed that Sergi agreed with him that none of the skeletons found at Castenedolo were of Pliocene age. For the scientific community, this apparently resolved the ongoing controversy.

But Sergi later wrote that Issel was mistaken. Despite his view that the 1889 skeleton was recent, Sergi said he had never given up his conviction that the 1880 bones were Pliocene. But the damage had been done, and Sergi was not up to fighting a new battle to rehabilitate the 1880 discoveries. Thereafter, silence or ridicule became the standard responses toward Castenedolo.


The switcheroo is not an isolated incident either, as seen in the Calaveras discovery A Case for the Calaveras Skull

One of Dr. Hudson's purposes was to investigate the accusations made by those who opposed Whitney by saying the Calaveras Skull was a deliberate hoax. The information regarding this "hoax" interpretation is convoluted. The varying accounts conflict as to who perpetrated the hoax and upon whom the supposed hoax was played. What emerges from all these conflicting accounts is that a joke-not a hoax-was played on someone (certainly not Whitney) at a later date. The joke involved a different skull from the famous Calaveras Skull found by Mattison.

The later joke apparently was an idea hatched when someone read a humorous poem written by Bret Harte entitled "The Pliocene Skull" which made fun of the skull. The poem was first published July 28, 1866, only 12 days after Whitney first officially alerted the scientific world at the California Academy of Sciences of the Calaveras Skull find.

Some believed the "joker" skull-not the Calaveras Skull found by Mattison-originally came from a cave burial before being planted in the mine. In reviewing the circumstances of the Calaveras Skull and the later "joker" skull, John C. Merriam (1910, p. 157) writes:

If the Calaveras skull came from a cave, it still remains to show how it finally passed into Whitney's possession as a relic from the auriferous gravels. In this connection several interesting items of information have come to light. One of these seems to show that even if a joke had been played upon the miner, Mattison, this particular joke had failed to reach the geologist Whitney. Some years ago Professor F. W. Putnam exhibited a small photograph, showing the skull in nearly the condition in which it was first seen by Whitney, to residents of Angels Camp who claimed to have been concerned in putting the joker skull into Mattison's mine, and was informed that this was certainly not the skull which they had put in the shaft [emphasis ours]. In this connection Dr. Sinclair has recently shown that skulls from the locality at which the jokers were supposed to have obtained the specimen used to fool Mr. Mattison are buried in a matrix quite unlike that which covered Whitney's specimen​

The real skull was even encrusted,

But, further, when the skull was found a mass of gravel indistinguishable from the surrounding material adhered firmly to it and remained thus attached until, long afterwards, Dr. Jeffries Wyman removed it in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Hence the miners must have found it, if at all, in a formation similar to or identical with the auriferous gravels. The supposed joke would therefore be quite without point​

And these weren't even the only fossils discovered,

Another matter often overlooked by those seeking to discredit the Calaveras Skull is the fact that numerous other human remains have been reported as having been found in the auriferous gravels. Whitney in 1880 makes mention of numerous human, fossil remains in his book The Auriferous Gravels of the Sierra Nevada of California. It now bears repeating Whitney's reports of some of these finds. The Calaveras Skull was only one of many human remains found in the gravels during last century's digging by gold miners. Numerous "jokes" or outright lies would have to be involved in these other cases, and there is no basis for such a conclusion.

Even when all is shown to be in line with the dates, or even superposition of strata, there is still something wrong. Whether it's the earth flipping upside down, jokes, or choosing a date (usually consonant with Darwinian chronology) when dating methods show different dates. This isn't about the verity of radiometric dating in determining the age of the earth.

The TO article finally attempts to address this in the final section and uses a bit of a sleight-of-hand.

If you test an old sample with a radiometric method geared to young samples, you would find that all the "parent" radioactive atoms have decayed. Your conclusion would be that the sample has a minimum age which corresponds to the smallest amount of the "parent" nuclide you can detect. You would not conclude that the sample was "young."

If you test a young sample with a radiometric method geared to old samples, you would find that none of the "parent" radioactive atoms have decayed. Your conclusion would be that the sample has a maximum age which corresponds to the smallest amount of the "daughter" nuclide which you can detect. You would not conclude that the sample was "old.​

But it's not about testing a young sample with an old radiometric method. While there are different methods which can only be used when the sample is within a certain range, the range of the method is significant.

image275.gif


The article addresses what would happen if you were to date a very old fossil with lichenometry for example, but not what happens when you date a fossil with the correct method, and from the different ages garnered, one closest to the evolutionary scheme is chosen. Or when a fossil is switched with another, and the correct date of the impostor which is obtained by using the correct method, is used to determine the age of the original. But it will more or less break off into a lengthy article showing how Uranium and Noah's Flood are incompatible or how that same method shows that the earth is old.
 
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What contributions has Creationism given us?
OEC, GAP or YEC? When it comes to population genetics "Creationism" give you the written genealogys and a lot of written history to go by. When it comes to archeology Creationism gives you a lot of written historical records about the ancient cities that they excavate and the people that lived there. Look at Babylon for example. There is a lot of information about that city in the Bible. Much more information then what we have from the study of the ancient ruins that we find there today. Science uses the Bible all the time for the work that they do.
babylon-from-googleearth.jpg
 
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mzungu

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OEC, GAP or YEC? When it comes to population genetics "Creationism" give you the written genealogys and a lot of written history to go by. When it comes to archeology Creationism gives you a lot of written historical records about the ancient cities that they excavate and the people that lived there. Look at Babylon for example. There is a lot of information about that city in the Bible. Much more information then what we have from the study of the ancient ruins that we find there today. Science uses the Bible all the time for the work that they do.
babylon-from-googleearth.jpg
Please show me how the bible can tell me if a child is actually related to his father? You cannot use any tests that are scientific such as DNA testing. Give me one verse in the bible that can stand the scrutiny of an empirical test on paternity!
 
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Wiccan_Child

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OEC, GAP or YEC? When it comes to population genetics "Creationism" give you the written genealogys and a lot of written history to go by. When it comes to archeology Creationism gives you a lot of written historical records about the ancient cities that they excavate and the people that lived there. Look at Babylon for example. There is a lot of information about that city in the Bible. Much more information then what we have from the study of the ancient ruins that we find there today. Science uses the Bible all the time for the work that they do.
Exactly: science uses the Bible for historical clues. Not Creationism, but the Bible. Both a Christian Creationist and a Christian TE have the same Bible. Historical information derived from the Bible is a testament to the veracity of (parts of) the Bible, not to Creationism.

Remember, Creationism is the proposition that the universe, the Earth, life, and/or humanity were poofed into being by a deity. YECs believe this all happened 6000 years ago and all the species are unrelated to one another. Others believe that the universe and the Earth are old, but Genesis is generally correct in the order of Creation (meaning the Sun came after plants...), and that species are poofed into being.

Creationism basically says "X, Y, and Z were poofed into being". If you believe that, then you're a Creationist. If you believe the mainstream consensus and simply place God at the start of it all, or as guiding the gradual process, that doesn't make you a Creationist.

That's what Creationism is. What, then, has Creationism contributed to modern society?
 
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Please show me how the bible can tell me if a child is actually related to his father? You cannot use any tests that are scientific such as DNA testing. Give me one verse in the bible that can stand the scrutiny of an empirical test on paternity!
You got it backwards. DNA confirms that the Bible is true. From the study of DNA we know that Abraham is the Paternal Father of both Arabs and Jews. Of course if you want to put on your blinders and refuse to read the research then your not going to know the truth. My experance has been that everytime science confirms the Bible is true the Atheists ignore the science or even deny science. They pick and choose and they only accept the science that they want to accept.

"According to the written and oral traditions of the three major religions of the Western world, Abraham was a real person who lived in the Middle East nearly 4,000 years ago. According to each respective tradition, he was the first of the Fathers of the Jewish people, fathered the Arab nations and Islam, and laid the conceptual basis for Christianity. Tradition relates that he may have influenced early Eastern religion, as well.
Abraham is the first to be called a Hebrew - Ivri -- one who passes over from one side to the other. He received this title because he actually crossed over Euphrates River, in present day Iraq, as he traveled to the Promised Land at the call of God. Philosophically, he earned the distinction as a Hebrew for his clarity of truth, for at a time that the entire world was of one opinion, he was of another. He was born, according to the Talmud, into a world that had largely lost recognition of the one God -- the Creator, Sustainer, and Supervisor of the universe. He recognized at an early age that there must be only one Creator and Prime Mover of all. It was not a popular opinion at the time, but he was a fighter for truth and freedom, and he placed his life on the line for his belief. In his lifetime, he continually faced and passed major tests of his strength of conviction and commitment to his vision of truth of the reality and unity of God.
The Jewish people regard Abraham as their original forefather, the father of Isaac, and the grandfather of Jacob. Abraham is also revered as the forefather of the Arab nations and Islam, as he was also the father of Ishmael, his son through Hagar, Sara's Egyptian princess handmaiden. The Koran reports that Abraham and Ishmael raised the foundations of the Kaaba, the cube-shaped black stone structure in Mecca, Saudi Arabia, which is Islam's holiest shrine. During the annual Haj pilgrimage, Moslems from all over the world circle the Kaaba, reinforcing the central role of Abraham and Ishmael in Islamic faith. Christianity, as well, regards Abraham as a Patriarch. He is the acknowledged father of monotheism, the progenitor of Western religion. "

Abraham's Chromosomes?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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You do not even know what Creationism is and I do not think that you ever well know.
You will continue to argue against a strawman of your own creation theory.
Then, by all means, educate us.
 
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