GAP Creationism VS YEC & OEC Creationism

[mzungu]

recent analysis says she was a knuckle walker. Arboreal ancestry doesn't create locking wrists but the opposite as it pulls not compresses. However her wrist flexors are very similar to arboreal type monkeys.
Richmond, B.G. and Strait, D.S., Evidence that humans evolved from a knuckle-walking ancestor, Nature 404(6776):382-385, 2000. Monkeys that climb trees (ie: orangutans and spider monkeys etc.) also have an angled knee joint like humans.

So much for he validity of your source; Orangutans are NOT monkeys! They are APES! BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!

 

[mzungu]

I am talking about a contest between a Phd and a third grade Sunday School Bible Student. They have a program on TV are you smarter then a 5th grader. I am talking about Are You Smarter then a Third Grader when it comes to knowing your Bible.

They had a fund raiser once. They got people to pledge $1 for every verse that the student was able to memorize. People did not realize how much it was going to cost them. Perhaps they thought the most a third grader could memorize was 20 or 30 passages, with the reference number. It was more like two or three hundred. The people paid up though.

Chimps are vastly superior to humans when it comes to photographic memory! So what's your point?

 

[USincognito]

What is the point of your images?

Half of those images don't even show Au. afarensis, much less Lucy in particular. Those that do show Au. afarensis appear to be random image search results.

lucy's jaw bone is the wrong shape...

Lucy is more like a human then a gorilla...

...and she is way too short...

Lucy is more like a human then a gorilla...

...and her brain too small to be human.

Lucy is more like a human then a gorilla...

 

[Wiccan_Child]

recent analysis says she was a knuckle walker. Arboreal ancestry doesn't create locking wrists but the opposite as it pulls not compresses. However her wrist flexors are very similar to arboreal type monkeys.
Richmond, B.G. and Strait, D.S., Evidence that humans evolved from a knuckle-walking ancestor, Nature 404(6776):382-385, 2000. Monkeys that climb trees (ie: orangutans and spider monkeys etc.) also have an angled knee joint like humans.

The problem with analysing Lucy's wrists is that she wasn't found with any, so such analyses are inherently sketchy. Moreover, her pelvis, torso, and legs, are still indicators of bipedal locomotion. And when we look at a more complete fossil of A. afarensis (i.e., one with wrists):

"Only one partial skeleton that includes both forelimb and hindlimb elements has been reported for Australopithecus afarensis. The diminutive size of this specimen (A.L. 288-1 ["Lucy"]) has hampered our understanding of the paleobiology of this species absent the potential impact of allometry. Here we describe a large-bodied (i.e., well within the range of living Homo) specimen that, at 3.58 Ma, also substantially antedates A.L. 288–1. It provides fundamental evidence of limb proportions, thoracic form, and locomotor heritage in Australopithecus afarensis. Together, these characteristics further establish that bipedality in Australopithecus was highly evolved and that thoracic form differed substantially from that of either extant African ape." - Source + source.

There are also newly found fossils in Etheopia that show A. afarensis had foot arches, demonstrating that they were bipedal the the large majority of their lives:

"The transition to full-time terrestrial bipedality is a hallmark of human evolution. A key correlate of human bipedalism is the development of longitudinal and transverse arches of the foot that provide a rigid propulsive lever and critical shock absorption during striding bipedal gait. Evidence for arches in the earliest well-known Australopithecus species, A. afarensis, has long been debated. A complete fourth metatarsal of A. afarensis was recently discovered at Hadar, Ethiopia. It exhibits torsion of the head relative to the base, a direct correlate of a transverse arch in humans. The orientation of the proximal and distal ends of the bone reflects a longitudinal arch. Further, the deep, flat base and tarsal facets imply that its midfoot had no ape-like midtarsal break. These features show that the A. afarensis foot was functionally like that of modern humans and support the hypothesis that this species was a committed terrestrial biped." - Source.

In other words, the bipedal motion of A afarensis is known from more samples than just Lucy, using more than just wrists.

You have provided no sources for this information

Here (en français; you may need to find the English version), here (where it is used in an extensive kinematic meta-analysis of A. afarensis), and here (where it is again used in an extensive overview of both A. afarensis and A. africanus, the conclusion of which is that both share all the hallmarks of bipedal motion, and that A. africanus was likely more arboreal than A. afarensis).

Again, three more sources that all use the many fossils of A. afarensis to demonstrate their bipedal locomotion.

There is a chance of error in reconstructing the original pelvis for one.

Indeed. However, we have many other instances of A. afarensis, allowing us to judge Lucy's pelvis.

Secondly, there are tree dwelling chimps that have a similar angled knee joints so even if she was a biped, no more that a tree dwelling chimp. Also the Blades of her hip were oriented as in chimpanzee (Stern and Susman 1983, p.292.) Features of afarensis hip therefore "enable proficient climbing" (Stern and Susman 1983, p. 290).

Undoubtedly. However, the fact remains that she was bipedal. Whether she was bipedal because her ancestors walked upright in trees (like orangutangs) before descending permanently (like chimps), or because she simply walked upright in the Savannah, is a source of some speculation. The fact remains, however, that A. afarensis was bipedal.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Yeah it's subjective. I came up with it after interpreting the quotes I provided.

By acceleration, I actually meant everything in those days experienced change in time in real time. Dinosaurs would have died and lived in seconds, minutes, or hours rather than years and to them, it would have been seconds, minutes, or hours.

So, from the dinosaurs point of view, they lived for years. From X's point of view, they lived for seconds or minutes. Who, then, is 'X', and how do we know he/she/it/they observed dinosaurs to live and die in a matter of seconds?

During that time, if there are still people and animals, they'll experience the orbit in real time. At least that's what I think.

It will not occur for several billion years, and by that point the human race will likely be long extinct. Our species may well survive in the guise of an ancestral taxon, but it's unlikely humanity will have any descendants that resemble modern humans. Besides, what do you mean by "they'll experience the orbit in real time"? What other way is there?

Bible merely reveals them. Science elaborates on such things.

The plague in Zech. 14:12, by the sound of it, it sounds like rapid decay.

Decomposition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But there's no indication of the heart stopping. It says this rotting is the plague. Instant death.

The Bible may well say that they rotted "while still standing on their feet", but science doesn't corroborate that event.

Interesting.

What about the universe expanding?

It doesn't have an effect on entropy. Like a piston being drawn out, it would only increase entropy, if anything.

 

[Jazer]

Chimps are vastly superior to humans when it comes to photographic memory!

How many Bible verses can a Chimp memorize with the referance number?

So what's your point?

What is the point of the program on TV: "Are you smarter then a 5th grader". The point is that the average person does not even have a third grade level of understanding of their Bible. Even if you base that on one hour a week from when they start sunday school. It is not unusual for them to start at the age of one. So that would be 52 weeks a year for one hour a week for seven years. So by the third grade a student should have had at least 364 hours of teaching.

It would not surprise me if a LOT of people here have less then even one hour of Bible teaching. What little tiny bit of Bible education they do get they tend to ignore or disregard. So when it comes to the Bible most skeptics are uneducated. Very few of them have any substantial Bible knowledge. Yet I have spent thousands of hours to study Science and the skeptics attack me for knowing so little. Yet they have not even spent an hour to study the Bible. In fact I doubt if the people that attack me even have spent as much time as I have to study science. Because people really just judge themselves and try to project that out on others.

 

[mzungu]

How many Bible verses can a Chimp memorize with the referance number?

You don't stand a chance against a chimp! Man Vs Chimp - memory test - YouTube

 

[Jazer]

So much for he validity of your source; Orangutans are NOT monkeys! They are APES! BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!

Oh yes of course Apes are much more people like.

 

[Nathan Poe]

How many Bible verses can a Chimp memorize with the referance number?

At least as many as you -- it's your own fault for not being able to speak chimp.

It would not surprise me if a LOT of people here have less then even one hour of Bible teaching.

You mean an hour of someone such as yourself drilling specific, agenda-driven interpretations of the Bible into children's heads since before they were capable of critical thinking?

What little tiny bit of Bible education they do get they tend to ignore or disregard.

For good reason.

So when it comes to the Bible most skeptics are uneducated. Very few of them have any substantial Bible knowledge.

Fewer believers have any, as well.

Yet I have spent thousands of hours to study Science and the skeptics attack me for knowing so little.

You get it all so wrong on a regular basis, one has to wonder whether or not it was all in vain.

Yet they have not even spent an hour to study the Bible. In fact I doubt if the people that attack me even have spent as much time as I have to study science. Because people really just judge themselves and try to project that out on others.

Do you often feel attacked? persecuted, even?

 

[Jazer]

Chimps are vastly superior to humans when it comes to photographic memory! So what's your point?

Perhaps you could rig a test that would show a slug to be "vastly superior" also. You may want to put a little bit of thought into what you just said.

 

[createdtoworship]

The problem with analysing Lucy's wrists is that she wasn't found with any, so such analyses are inherently sketchy. Moreover, her pelvis, torso, and legs, are still indicators of bipedal locomotion. And when we look at a more complete fossil of A. afarensis (i.e., one with wrists):

There are also newly found fossils in Etheopia that show A. afarensis had foot arches, demonstrating that they were bipedal the the large majority of their lives:

"A complete fourth metatarsal of A. afarensis was recently discovered at Hadar, Ethiopia. " - Source.


Undoubtedly. However, the fact remains that she was bipedal. Whether she was bipedal because her ancestors walked upright in trees (like orangutangs) before descending permanently (like chimps), or because she simply walked upright in the Savannah, is a source of some speculation. The fact remains, however, that A. afarensis was bipedal.

It is still far fetched to say lucy gave up living in the trees to become a human transition. I am unsure where you are going with all of this. The 4th metatarsal looks human to me but I am no expert.

 

[Split Rock]

Lucy is not filled with them, the fake artwork is filled with them.
They can not produce the evidence they they are looking for, so the fabricate it.

Because there have been reproductions made, you conclude that the evidence is frabricated??? huh??

 

[Jazer]

At least as many as you -- it's your own fault for not being able to speak chimp.

Do they make a kjv for chimps?

You mean an hour of someone such as yourself drilling specific, agenda-driven interpretations of the Bible into children's heads since before they were capable of critical thinking?

What is the agenda? We teach the Bible and we teach Bible truth. The "agenda" comes later when they are old enough to go into the sanctuary to hear the pastor preach. It is interesting how with the Amish and Mennonite every church has different standards they follow. They may allow a tractor but not a car. Some allow a car but the car has to be black. Many of them seem to allow cell phones. Then you have the Catholics with two standards. The so called old and the new.

As far as critical thinking, again you forget that we are to have the mind of Christ. It maybe hard to think of a Church that is all of one mind and one accord. This is something that Science is just beginning to look into. Although we do see an example in "To Kill a Mocking Bird". So the people that yell "Crucify Him" were perhaps indoctrinated into an agenda also. At least they were united in purpose and intent. As you know you can be for God or against God. Everyone has to make a choice. I just do not understand why anyone would be against God. It just does not seem like a very smart thing to do.

 

[Split Rock]

It is still far fetched to say lucy gave up living in the trees to become a human transition. I am unsure where you are going with all of this. The 4th metatarsal looks human to me but I am no expert.

The loss of an abductable great toe idicates the foot was no longer used for grasping branches. This and the more human -like pelvis indicate that they were at least partially bipedal, even if they could still climb (as evidenced by the shape of the hands, for example). All this supports the intermediate or transitional nature of A. afarensis. I'm really not sure what else you guys want. If it was fully bipedal like us, it wouldn't be transitional, now would it (at least in terms of locomotion)?

 

[Jazer]

Because there have been reproductions made, you conclude that the evidence is frabricated??? huh??

The evidence is on the left, I see no connection between that and the human looking creation on the right.
For one thing look at the hands, you could play a piano with hands like that. It's an outright scam.
Although it is wonderful art. I just wish they did not try to misrepresent the evidence.

 

[TheReasoner]

The evidence is on the left, I see no connection between that and the human looking creation on the right.

And so what Jazer? Many people wouldn't make heads or tails of a wave equation or operations on such either. But that does not mean they aren't valid.

FIRST: Acquire knowledge. THEN Criticize. Not the other way around.
How hard is it to do that?

 

[Jazer]

And so what Jazer?

So your point is that it is ok to lie to people if it serves your agenda? I am looking for the truth, not fabricated misrepresentations of the evidence.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

It is still far fetched to say lucy gave up living in the trees to become a human transition. I am unsure where you are going with all of this.

I'm dispelling the myths you seem to adhere to. Lucy was bipedal, despite what you may have been told. Your arguments up till now were aimed at demonstrating she was "just an ape".

The 4th metatarsal looks human to me but I am no expert.

Indeed, and neither am I. People who actually are experts, however, say that the fourth metatarsal is that of a biped, not a quadruped (as per your claim in #629).

 

[Split Rock]

The evidence is on the left, I see no connection between that and the human looking creation on the right.

Yet another example of "I'm not an expert, BUT...." You really are dedicated to proving my point in my most recent thread.. aren't you? Thanks.

For one thing look at the hands, you could play a piano with hands like that. It's an outright scam.
Although it is wonderful art. I just wish they did not try to misrepresent the evidence.

The hands do look a bit off in that model. Here is one that looks more accurate:
3d model lucy australopithecus
So, is that one also an "outright scam?"

 

[Jazer]

The hands do look a bit off in that model.
Here is one that looks more accurate:
3d model lucy australopithecus
So, is that one also an "outright scam?"

The hands and feet are more accurate,
but they make her look like a porn queen.
I am sure the sysops on here would ban that one.