GAP Creationism VS YEC & OEC Creationism

[Ryal Kane]

Looking at the photo I do believe it. It's a scam. But you can believe what you want. You can even believe that the London Bridge is in Colorado if you want.

Actually it's in Arizona.
London Bridge (Lake Havasu City) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But it does bring up an interesting point. What evidence would convince you of the theory of evolution being correct Jazer?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Based on the Bible School I attended.

Have you considered suing them for a tuition refund and damages?

 

[createdtoworship]

Only according to Creationists. It has long been established that A. afarensis was bipedal, and indeed A. afarensis changed the previous belief that an increased brain size preceded bipedal locomotion - when, in fact, the reverse was true. Wikipedia has a list of skeletal features that point to bipedal motion.

she was a knuckle walker, according to this study done....

"A. anememsis and A. afarensis- the latter represented by the famous skeleton known as Lucy - had wrists capable of locking the hands in place during knuckle walking." - Science News April 8, 2000

It is common knowledge that lucy's hands and feet were also highly curved as to promote suspension from limbs, and not a foot of an upright walker. (Stern, J., and Susman, R., American Journal of Physical Anthropology 60(3):279–317, 1983. )

distinctly quadrupedal specialization characteristic of some living apes and is quite different than walking upright. Richmond and Strait identify four skeletal features of the distal radius of the living knuckle-walking apes, chimpanzees and gorillas. They also identify similar morphological features on two early ‘hominids’, including Lucy:

‘A UPGMA clustering diagram … illustrates the similarity between the radii of A. anamensis and A. afarensis and those of the knuckle-walking African apes, indicating that these hominids retain the derived wrist morphology of knuckle-walkers.’...
Richmond, B.G. and Strait, D.S., Evidence that humans evolved from a knuckle-walking ancestor, Nature 404(6776):382, 2000.

same book says "there is no evidence that any extant primate has long, curved heavily muscled hands and feet for any purponse other than to meet the demands of full or part time arboreal (tree) life."

ape feet are hardly able to make a left right stride as humans have

secondly,

Lucy’s entire skeleton was found about two and a half kilometers from the site in which the bipedal knee joint was found. The conclusion that both fossils originate from the same species is questionable, and might have been influenced by Johanson’s pre-existing biases. To this day the argument continues about the validity of the dating of Lucy’s bones, as well as the other scattered bones found in the same vicinity. This argument does not add credibility to the claim that the knee joint Johanson found previously belongs to the same species as Lucy, or even that they are from the same period of time.

..from the same essay

When Lucy’s bones were examined, they didn’t add up to her being a biped. The pelvis was the biggest problem, as it didn’t seem to allow for Lucy to walk upright.

http://www.smarterthanthat.com/biol...discovery-of-lucy-australopithicus-afarensis/

 

[Jazer]

Only according to Creationists.

Because Creationists have not painted themselves into a corner. Evolutionists try to make Lucy look human. They give her human hands, human feet, human skull, human pelvis, human shoulder blades. NONE of it is true. It is a misrepresentation. Lucy lived in the trees. No monkey under 4 foot would be able to live on the ground and survive. Watch the video and that will explain everything. No reason for me to repeat what is in the video.

 

[Jazer]

But it does bring up an interesting point. What evidence would convince you of the theory of evolution being correct Jazer?

I accept bottleneck theory, genetic drift and things like that. It's really genetics, but they like to call those things evolution. I accept population genetics. Of course that is considered to be 99% accurate and can be used as evidence in court.

 

[Jazer]

Have you considered suing them for a tuition refund and damages?

I do not think there is any need for you to be so insulting. It only cost $50 per class. Cost that much to pay the electric bill. They had a $32,000 utility bill one winter. They tried to get a hold of the guy who ran the utility company but he was in Flordia and could not be reached. Most likely out on his yacht. How about if we sue him?

 

[Split Rock]

Because Creationists have not painted themselves into a corner. Evolutionists try to make Lucy look human. They give her human hands, human feet, human skull, human pelvis, human shoulder blades. NONE of it is true. It is a misrepresentation. Lucy lived in the trees. No monkey under 4 foot would be able to live on the ground and survive. Watch the video and that will explain everything. No reason for me to repeat what is in the video.

Lucy was not a monkey. She had intermediate features, not human. Intermediate jaws, feet, hands. Not human. She was certainly not a monkey, though could probably climb trees better than us. This ability hardly precludes bipedal locomotion. Its you creationists who claim there are no intermediates, yet Lucy is filled with them. So, you have to claim she is nothing but a monkey.

 

[createdtoworship]

Lucy was not a monkey. She had intermediate features, not human. Intermediate jaws, feet, hands. Not human. She was certainly not a monkey, though could probably climb trees better than us. This ability hardly precludes bipedal locomotion. Its you creationists who claim there are no intermediates, yet Lucy is filled with them. So, you have to claim she is nothing but a monkey.

actually a knuckle-walking, apelike creature to be exact.

Charlton Heston: "In the model of the evolutionary tree, man and ape are said to share a common ancestor. However, evidence of that common ancestor is highly contested. That is why it is still called the missing link."

Richard Milton, author of Shattering the Myths of Evolution: "Darwinists have promised us a missing link. So they've got to deliver. They have got to come up with one. Any missing link will do, it seems. Every so often a skeleton is found in Africa. Its discoverers describe it as being the missing link, the headlines comes and go. And then, later on, that skeleton, those bones, are reclassified either as human or ape. And so far the missing link is still missing."

 

[Jazer]

Lucy is filled with them.

Lucy is not filled with them, the fake artwork is filled with them.
They can not produce the evidence they they are looking for, so the fabricate it.

 

[TheReasoner]

Ok, science does not agree & you think I am not qualifed to determine who is right and who is wrong.

NNnno. Some scientists disagree heatedly before a consensus is reached, and during paradigm shifts. Mostly.
The points where disagreement exists are not as fundamental as you creationists want them to be. An archeological find can be made and heated discussions go on. But you cannot conclude from that that science does not agree. It merely means that people in the know disagree about that particular find. Not that science disagrees. Hence:

So that means evolutionary theory is worthless.

is meaningless.

Because no one is qualified to know who to believe and who not to believe.

This is not about religion, Jazer. What we believe in terms of spirituality cannot and does not translate to science. You can't choose to believe that the world is cubic for example, and expect that to be treated with any respect. We operate with principles which are radically different from the religious ones.

I do not care anyways, because I am more interested to study the Bible and to attend Bible school.

Science does not conflict with christianity. If it does that means reality and God's creation conflicts with it, rendering whatever flavor of christianity experiences the conflict worthless.

But using your standard most of science is not qualifed to comment on the Bible.

It isn't. The bible is a spiritual book, not a religious one. So yeah. In that sense it translates as science and spirituality and religion are two different domains that do not cross over into one another. So, if your bible school starts mocking and acting derisively to areas where they do not have expertise: Leave immediately. That kind of place

Esp the ones that do not even have a 3 rd grade level of understanding and have had no training in the Bible at all. The door swings both ways, you can not have one without the other.

3rd grade level of understanding? I assume you meant to add "of the bible" or alternately "of religion/faith" there Jazer. I hope so anyway.
I never said the door does not swing both ways. I expect everyone (Though Christians doubly so) to behave with integrity, honesty (intellectual and otherwise), humility and wisdom.
When you make bold claims you cannot back about things you do not know you certainly do not follow those expectations, and my respect for you plummets.

 

[mzungu]

Chill out Jazer and humble thyself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJt6keI3N94&ob=av2n

 

[Wiccan_Child]

she was a knuckle walker, according to this study done....

"A. anememsis and A. afarensis- the latter represented by the famous skeleton known as Lucy - had wrists capable of locking the hands in place during knuckle walking." - Science News April 8, 2000

It is common knowledge that lucy's hands and feet were also highly curved as to promote suspension from limbs, and not a foot of an upright walker. (Stern, J., and Susman, R., American Journal of Physical Anthropology 60(3):279–317, 1983. )

distinctly quadrupedal specialization characteristic of some living apes and is quite different than walking upright. Richmond and Strait identify four skeletal features of the distal radius of the living knuckle-walking apes, chimpanzees and gorillas. They also identify similar morphological features on two early ‘hominids’, including Lucy:

‘A UPGMA clustering diagram … illustrates the similarity between the radii of A. anamensis and A. afarensis and those of the knuckle-walking African apes, indicating that these hominids retain the derived wrist morphology of knuckle-walkers.’...
Richmond, B.G. and Strait, D.S., Evidence that humans evolved from a knuckle-walking ancestor, Nature 404(6776):382, 2000.

same book says "there is no evidence that any extant primate has long, curved heavily muscled hands and feet for any purponse other than to meet the demands of full or part time arboreal (tree) life."

It is common courtesy to cite your sources (which, in this case, appears to be creation.com). In any case, the conclusion that Lucy was a knuckle-walker stems from a faulty analysis comparing her wrists to those of modern knuckle-walkers - instead, her locking wrists stem from her arboreal ancestry, not her knuckle-walking.

ape feet are hardly able to make a left right stride as humans have

Perhaps, but Lucy was more than capable of walking as humans do (kinematic analysis here).

secondly,

Lucy’s entire skeleton was found about two and a half kilometers from the site in which the bipedal knee joint was found. The conclusion that both fossils originate from the same species is questionable, and might have been influenced by Johanson’s pre-existing biases. To this day the argument continues about the validity of the dating of Lucy’s bones, as well as the other scattered bones found in the same vicinity. This argument does not add credibility to the claim that the knee joint Johanson found previously belongs to the same species as Lucy, or even that they are from the same period of time.

Lucy's dating has never really been in question: she is 3.18-3.22 million years old. And there is good evidence that AL 129-1 (the knee joint found near Lucy) is indeed from a member of Australopithecus afarensis (including its condyle and femoral shaft) Both Lucy and the knee, as well as future A. afarensis fossils, indicate bipedality.

..from the same essay

When Lucy’s bones were examined, they didn’t add up to her being a biped. The pelvis was the biggest problem, as it didn’t seem to allow for Lucy to walk upright.

Critically analyzing the discovery of “Lucy” (Australopithicus Afarensis) >> SmarterThanThat

Regardless of this man's opinion, he needs to cite some evidence to support his conjecture. The rest of the academic community have noted that Lucy's pelvis is virtually identical to humans in all but size, further supporting the case her bipedal locomotion. Her pelvis most certainly did allow for bipedal motion - perhaps he is mistaking the original, misshapen pelvis?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Because Creationists have not painted themselves into a corner. Evolutionists try to make Lucy look human. They give her human hands, human feet, human skull, human pelvis, human shoulder blades. NONE of it is true. It is a misrepresentation.

Yep, she totally has human hands and feet

And that pelvis, her own pelvis, we, what, broke the bone and refashioned it into a human one?

Oh, wait, no we didn't.

So, at the moment, you have nothing but your own conspiracy theory to support your assertions. No hard evidence. Funny, that.

Lucy lived in the trees.

No, she lived on the ground.

"Features of her pelvis show that a three-million-year-old hominid, Lucy, was as adept at upright walking as we are. Bipedality could date from the earliest phase of human evolution." - http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/krigbaum/proseminar/Lovejoy_1988_SA.pdf

"Calcanei from African apes, modern humans, and Australopithecus afarensis are compared to investigate the anatomical and mechanical changes that occurred in this bone as a result of the transition to terrestrial bipedality. Features analyzed include the cross-sectional area and volume of the calcaneal tuber, the geometry and orientation of the articular surfaces, and the surface topography of the calcaneal corpus. Calcaneal morphology is unequivocal in its partitioning of quadrupedal pongids and bipedal hominids." - The calcaneus of Australopithecus afaren... [Am J Phys Anthropol. 1989] - PubMed - NCBI

No monkey under 4 foot would be able to live on the ground and survive. Watch the video and that will explain everything. No reason for me to repeat what is in the video.

Which video?

 

[createdtoworship]

It is common courtesy to cite your sources (which, in this case, appears to be creation.com). In any case, the conclusion that Lucy was a knuckle-walker stems from a faulty analysis comparing her wrists to those of modern knuckle-walkers - instead, her locking wrists stem from her arboreal ancestry, not her knuckle-walking.

recent analysis says she was a knuckle walker. Arboreal ancestry doesn't create locking wrists but the opposite as it pulls not compresses. However her wrist flexors are very similar to arboreal type monkeys.
Richmond, B.G. and Strait, D.S., Evidence that humans evolved from a knuckle-walking ancestor, Nature 404(6776):382-385, 2000. Monkeys that climb trees (ie: orangutans and spider monkeys etc.) also have an angled knee joint like humans.

And there is good evidence that AL 129-1 (the knee joint found near Lucy) is indeed from a member of Australopithecus afarensis

You have provided no sources for this information

Her pelvis most certainly did allow for bipedal motion - perhaps he is mistaking the original, misshapen pelvis?

There is a chance of error in reconstructing the original pelvis for one. Secondly, there are tree dwelling chimps that have a similar angled knee joints so even if she was a biped, no more that a tree dwelling chimp. Also the Blades of her hip were oriented as in chimpanzee (Stern and Susman 1983, p.292.) Features of afarensis hip therefore "enable proficient climbing" (Stern and Susman 1983, p. 290).

 

[Jazer]

3rd grade level of understanding? I assume you meant to add "of the bible"

I am talking about a contest between a Phd and a third grade Sunday School Bible Student. They have a program on TV are you smarter then a 5th grader. I am talking about Are You Smarter then a Third Grader when it comes to knowing your Bible.

They had a fund raiser once. They got people to pledge $1 for every verse that the student was able to memorize. People did not realize how much it was going to cost them. Perhaps they thought the most a third grader could memorize was 20 or 30 passages, with the reference number. It was more like two or three hundred. The people paid up though.

 

[Jazer]

Chill

The uploader has not made this video available in your country.

 

[Jpark]

Why? We can't see any indications of it, and time for God is not like time for us. Why would He need to speed something up as seen from our perspective when we are told time for Him is not at all like time for us. So speeding time up like that would not give much meaning to be honest. Not since time doesn't matter to God AND nothing appears to support the notion.

Time is not as easy as all that. Study a wee bit of relativity and you'll see just how far from the popular perception time actually is - even in our universe/reality. And to quote the bible: 2 Peter 3:8–9 reads:

‘But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.’

(My emphasis). This is made clear several places in the bible. So why insist on God altering time as seen from our perspective when nothing appears to support that notion?

I didn't quote 2 Peter 3:8 because it would be out of context. I use Psalm 90:3 instead but I didn't convey what I actually meant.

That's something of a subjective interpretation of both science and the Bible, isn't it? Is there anything in science that suggests there was any acceleration of time? Are you referring to relativistic time dilation? Even then, what exactly do you mean by God "accelerated the 13 billion years to 6 days"?

Yeah it's subjective. I came up with it after interpreting the quotes I provided.

By acceleration, I actually meant everything in those days experienced change in time in real time. Dinosaurs would have died and lived in seconds, minutes, or hours rather than years and to them, it would have been seconds, minutes, or hours.

That's a pretty loose interpretation. As the article you cite mentioned:

"They created the most detailed model to date of the Sun's transition to a red giant, based on observations of six nearby red giant stars. Sure enough, they found that Earth's orbit will widen at first. But Earth will also induce a "tidal bulge" on the Sun's surface, with its own gravitational pull. The bulge will lag just behind the Earth in its orbit, slowing it down enough to drag it to a fiery demise."

The Earth's orbit may indeed be widened, but it will not widen enough.

During that time, if there are still people and animals, they'll experience the orbit in real time. At least that's what I think.

If God is going to intervene and end the Earth in seconds, then why look to science? Surely science will reveal no portent about God's future action - the Sun's natural life will end the Earth over millions of years, not seconds.

Bible merely reveals them. Science elaborates on such things.

The plague in Zech. 14:12, by the sound of it, it sounds like rapid decay.

Decomposition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But there's no indication of the heart stopping. It says this rotting is the plague. Instant death.

According to science, the universe has only ever got more chaotic. Local decreases in entropy are offset by a universal increase.

Interesting.

What about the universe expanding?

What you think has little relevance especially when you have absolutely no scientific basis to base you ideas on.

This world will become a very dangerous place to live in if we are to allow superstition to rule our lives!

God help us all if religious fundamentalism overrules science!

I'm searching. What about the earth's rotation?

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=16
http://www.sentex.net/~tcc/joshua.htm

http://www.fastcompany.com/1739016/japan-earthquake-shortened-earth-s-day-18-millionths-of-a-second

May have been a small increase but this is something interesting.

But I'm not run by superstition. It's just a belief and a small time job that I practice in my spare time (like I'm doing now).

 

[Jazer]

Yep, she totally has human hands

At least your willing to admit the deception.
Will the REAL Lucy Please Stand Up?

 

[Shemjaza]

At least your willing to admit the deception.
Will the REAL Lucy Please Stand Up?

What is the point of your images?

Different apes are different? Not really controversial.

Lucy is more like a human then a gorilla, which is more similar to a human then a monkey?

 

[createdtoworship]

What is the point of your images?

Different apes are different? Not really controversial.

Lucy is more like a human then a gorilla, which is more similar to a human then a monkey?

lucy's jaw bone is the wrong shape, and she is way too short, and her brain too small to be human.