GAP Creationism VS YEC & OEC Creationism

[Ryal Kane]

I find it fascinating that, after 50 pages, this thread has come full circle.

The OP started by pointing out the discrepancies between various forms of Creationism and how these these contradictions never seem to be challenged by the different groups. Because Creationism CANNOT be wrong in their minds, they allow these to go unchallenged and will even ardently support creationists with differing views, despite the cognitive dissonance. It reminds me a Penn and Teller piece about UFO conventions, full of people with completely contradictory UFO stories that never question each other because they support the general idea.

And now we have reached discussion Kent Hovind, a convicted fraudster and the creationists still cannot stop supporting him because he is a creationist. It's hard not to get the impression that creationist armour is so weak that they can't allow even the slightest perception of weakness or the whole thing will collapse.
I've seen creationists on this very board debate for pages and pages that a simple typo wasn't such. He simply could not admit he might be wrong.

Which is exactly why so many creationist fail to understand science. For it to be science, it has to be able to be proven wrong.

In my opinion: If you can't be wrong, then you're probably not right.

 

[Jazer]

The OP started by pointing out the discrepancies between various forms of Creationism and how these these contradictions never seem to be challenged by the different groups.

There are no contradictions and there are no discrepancies. You did not read the posts. YEC talks about the last 6000 years. GAP deals with 6,000 to 12,982 years ago. OEC is a theory that deals with everything before that. So they just do not overlap in anyway to contradict each other. All three compliment each other very well.

 

[createdtoworship]

hovind debate - YouTube

 

[USincognito]

They both took a stand for what they believed in. Do I believe in what Hovind and his son teaches? Not really, but I am not so quick to throw them to the Lions.

Wow. Are you under the false impression that Hovind was sent to prison for his religious beliefs? He was sent to prison for tax cheating. And I regularly check the CSE Facebook page and Eric has apparently done a great job turning his father's scam of the faithful into law abiding business rather than the tax evading/protesting one it was under Hovind the elder.

Hovind is anti theistic evolution. Why? He lets atheist Professor Peter Atkins answer that question. According to Hovind's (drdino.com) current newsletter Professor Atkins said that he supposed it was all right to believe that a god had created the universe through evolution, but that it would have to be a particularly malignant and cruel kind of God. They see problems with theistic evolution and want to point out to people what the problems are.

What does this have to do with Kent's crazy conspiracy theory ideas about American tax law?

it depends on your definition of evolution, you have to set the bars straight.

Oh how funny. You are trying to fallaciously equivocate eugenics with natural selection. The bar has been set bud. Artificial selection has nothing to do with actual evolutionary theory as proposed by Darwin. He was partially inspired by selective breeding of pigeons, but his actual theory only took the environment into consideration - not human whims and biases.

You're flailing.

the crusades were started with a legitimate reason (extremist Muslim terrorism)

Wow. Just wow. 21st Century jingoism being applied to 11th Century conflicts. Wow. But since you want to play this semantic game, let's try a couple of questions.
1. Were the Conquistadors engaging in extremist Catholic terrorism?
2. Was the concept of Manifest Destiny born out of extremist Protestant terrorism?

Hitler never had a legitimate reason for racism, this is why he pushed science so much...

You have no idea what you're talking about. Anti-Semitism had a long history in Germany promoted both by the Catholics (Christ Killer meme) and by Protestants (read some of Luther's writings). Mix in some garbage archaeology about "Aryans", pseduoscience about races and supermen - did you somehow miss the entire quote I provided about Sparta and their eugenics program 2,300 years ago - and wrap it all up in a bow with Josheph Lister's concepts of hygine. This combination of "justifications" lead to the Holocaust, not evolution.

BTW, you do know that Origin was one of the books the Nazi's burned don't you?

...in a day and age when evolution was used to promote slavery and other despicable things. The Bible can not be used to promotes such things as eugenics and racism like evolution can be used to.

Again, wow, just wow. How can you be so ignorant of your own history? This might come as a surpise to you, but slavery and racism in the U.S. were never justified by "evolution". They were justified in the devoutly religious South by Bible verses. Ever hear of the Scopes Monkey Trial? It happened in Jim Crow Tennessee? How can you suggest with a straight face that evolution was used to justify racism when the racists in Tennessee clearly rejected it?

I thought we should examine the evidence that Kent Hovind is a liar and a cheat by examining his videos one by one, what do you think? Just kidding.

Hovind lies in nearly every word out of his mouth in his "seminars". The best example is his "photograph" of an 11' 6" skeleton found in and Italian mine "in 1856 if I recall correctly".
Cretinism or Evilution?: Men Over Ten Feet Tall

But he does win every debate that He is in to the point no one wanted to debate Him.

Glib snake oil salesmen can do that. I've seen Hovind's schtick. I've memorized a lot of it. I can have Powerpoint slides responding to every lie, prevarication and load of garbage that comes out of his mouth. But here's something you probably don't know. The Hovind $250,000,000,000,000.00 suckers be... er Challenge? Numerous people have tried to engage him in a written tete a tete so he can't rely on his glib Gish Gallop techniques. To this date, he's never accepted any offers to do so.

I wonder why?

 

[USincognito]

all the more to debate him and use this against him publicly, not run away and make him think He is smart. Which is what is being done.

Well, for one thing, he's in prison because of his whacky tax protestor conspiracy theory mentality, but why won't Hovind engage in a written debate rather than one where he can use glibness and the Gish Gallop? Is he too cowardly to put his words to an honest analysis?

you still have yet to provide sources for christian heresy not roman catholic?

KKK and EDL is obviously not christian but racist. So you have provided no sources for christian extremists only racist and roman catholic. Racism is not christian, but false faith rooted in evolution.

You're not committing a rule violation by claiming that Catholics aren't Christian along with your historical ignorance fallacy by denying that Southern Conservative Christians who held their slaves and enforced Jim Crow for a century weren't Protestant Christians?

There are no contradictions and there are no discrepancies. You did not read the posts. YEC talks about the last 6000 years. GAP deals with 6,000 to 12,982 years ago. OEC is a theory that deals with everything before that. So they just do not overlap in anyway to contradict each other. All three compliment each other very well.

Well, except for the fact that your strange J haplogroup fixation doesn't jive with migration patterns. That humans lived long before c13k years ago. Etc. etc.

 

[createdtoworship]

Well, for one thing, he's in prison because of his whacky tax protestor conspiracy theory mentality, but why won't Hovind engage in a written debate rather than one where he can use glibness and the Gish Gallop? Is he too cowardly to put his words to an honest analysis?



You're not committing a rule violation by claiming that Catholics aren't Christian along with your historical ignorance fallacy by denying that Southern Conservative Christians who held their slaves and enforced Jim Crow for a century weren't Protestant Christians?



Well, except for the fact that your strange J haplogroup fixation doesn't jive with migration patterns. That humans lived long before c13k years ago. Etc. etc.

that was before they had scientific proof that slavery was wrong. wilberforce who was a christian put slavery down for the count.

 

[createdtoworship]

Wow. Are you under the false impression that Hovind was sent to prison for his religious beliefs? He was sent to prison for tax cheating. And I regularly check the CSE Facebook page and Eric has apparently done a great job turning his father's scam of the faithful into law abiding business rather than the tax evading/protesting one it was under Hovind the elder.



What does this have to do with Kent's crazy conspiracy theory ideas about American tax law?



Oh how funny. You are trying to fallaciously equivocate eugenics with natural selection. The bar has been set bud. Artificial selection has nothing to do with actual evolutionary theory as proposed by Darwin. He was partially inspired by selective breeding of pigeons, but his actual theory only took the environment into consideration - not human whims and biases.

You're flailing.



Wow. Just wow. 21st Century jingoism being applied to 11th Century conflicts. Wow. But since you want to play this semantic game, let's try a couple of questions.
1. Were the Conquistadors engaging in extremist Catholic terrorism?
2. Was the concept of Manifest Destiny born out of extremist Protestant terrorism?



You have no idea what you're talking about. Anti-Semitism had a long history in Germany promoted both by the Catholics (Christ Killer meme) and by Protestants (read some of Luther's writings). Mix in some garbage archaeology about "Aryans", pseduoscience about races and supermen - did you somehow miss the entire quote I provided about Sparta and their eugenics program 2,300 years ago - and wrap it all up in a bow with Josheph Lister's concepts of hygine. This combination of "justifications" lead to the Holocaust, not evolution.

BTW, you do know that Origin was one of the books the Nazi's burned don't you?



Again, wow, just wow. How can you be so ignorant of your own history? This might come as a surpise to you, but slavery and racism in the U.S. were never justified by "evolution". They were justified in the devoutly religious South by Bible verses. Ever hear of the Scopes Monkey Trial? It happened in Jim Crow Tennessee? How can you suggest with a straight face that evolution was used to justify racism when the racists in Tennessee clearly rejected it?



Hovind lies in nearly every word out of his mouth in his "seminars". The best example is his "photograph" of an 11' 6" skeleton found in and Italian mine "in 1856 if I recall correctly".
Cretinism or Evilution?: Men Over Ten Feet Tall



Glib snake oil salesmen can do that. I've seen Hovind's schtick. I've memorized a lot of it. I can have Powerpoint slides responding to every lie, prevarication and load of garbage that comes out of his mouth. But here's something you probably don't know. The Hovind $250,000,000,000,000.00 suckers be... er Challenge? Numerous people have tried to engage him in a written tete a tete so he can't rely on his glib Gish Gallop techniques. To this date, he's never accepted any offers to do so.

I wonder why?

here is a video by the man himself

Evolution the Foundation for Communism Part 1

read it and weap

 

[createdtoworship]

this one is better

The Prophecy Club - Evolution The Foundation For Communism 2 Of 2. - YouTube

 

[TheReasoner]

here is a video by the man himself

Evolution the Foundation for Communism Part 1

read it and weap

Well, thanks for providing a good example of completely crazy utterly fallacious "reasoning". I suppose since he promotes stuff you agree with it's perfectly okay to jump arbitrarily from A to la-la-land.

Can you actually watch that and not go "Hey, that's completely crazy!" Grady?


As for requiring sources for christian violence justified by the bible... Not going to reply to that after you showed your colors by attacking catholicism like you did. You might benefit from looking into it though. But I suspect you'll just dismiss any and everything you find. Which is a lot. After all when reality doesn't fit your desires then the world at large must be wrong. Right?

 

[createdtoworship]

Well, thanks for providing a good example of completely crazy utterly fallacious "reasoning". I suppose since he promotes stuff you agree with it's perfectly okay to jump arbitrarily from A to la-la-land.

Can you actually watch that and not go "Hey, that's completely crazy!" Grady?


As for requiring sources for christian violence justified by the bible... Not going to reply to that after you showed your colors by attacking catholicism like you did. You might benefit from looking into it though. But I suspect you'll just dismiss any and everything you find. Which is a lot. After all when reality doesn't fit your desires then the world at large must be wrong. Right?

yeah I know what you mean, but here is some more info on evolution and communism

The Darwinian foundation of communism

 

[createdtoworship]

Well, for one thing, he's in prison because of his whacky tax protestor conspiracy theory mentality, but why won't Hovind engage in a written debate rather than one where he can use glibness and the Gish Gallop? Is he too cowardly to put his words to an honest analysis?



You're not committing a rule violation by claiming that Catholics aren't Christian along with your historical ignorance fallacy by denying that Southern Conservative Christians who held their slaves and enforced Jim Crow for a century weren't Protestant Christians?



Well, except for the fact that your strange J haplogroup fixation doesn't jive with migration patterns. That humans lived long before c13k years ago. Etc. etc.

I found a quote about Hitlers religion : He believed in
natural evolution, but he also believed in special creation.

"that Adam and Eve were created by God in his image, but he also believed that not all of us are descended from Adam and Eve...To be more specific, Hitler believed that the Aryan race was descended from Adam and Eve, but everyone else evolved naturally"

so he was the worst kind of theistic evolutionist (not a creationist.)

 

[Jazer]

Well, except for the fact that your strange J haplogroup fixation doesn't jive with migration patterns. That humans lived long before c13k years ago. Etc. etc.

So what are you saying that Jewish people do not exist and those people living over in Jerusalem are just pretending to be Jewish? Perhaps you believe that asians and africans do not exist either. Do you think that science is a lie and that all of the DNA research is a scam? Or do you just pick and choose what you want to believe?

 

[TheReasoner]

yeah I know what you mean, but here is some more info on evolution and communism

The Darwinian foundation of communism

And you actually take that seriously, do you?

 

[createdtoworship]

And you actually take that seriously, do you?

sounds pretty legit

 

[mzungu]

Seriously?

Kosovo/Serbia. The christening of Norway. The christening of Latin America. The subjugation of Africa and Oceania. Crusades. Witch burnings. Apartheid. Racist extremists, right wing extremists, christian terrorists...

Up until after WW2, I think the fifties, native Americans were seen as animals in many countries in the Americas. I forgot which was the last to change that officially. Regardless: In the mines of Potosi natives were worked - literally - till they dropped dead. And this practice was encouraged by the church as atonement for their sins and ways for them (the natives) to gain sufficient standing in God's eyes to gain salvation on-par with humans - yes, they often considered the natives to be non-humans. All defended with the bible. It still is. Just talk to a KKK-er. Or a member of EDL or similar organization who claims to be Christian.

Do you really need to see hard sources for those things Grady? Surely not.

If Jazer wants his wish then before we grant it let him watch this first:

Imagine If All Atheists Left America - YouTube

 

[Jazer]

If Jazer wants his wish then before we grant it let him watch this first

You do not get it do you. Athiests are the people that are going to destroy america and it is not My "wish" that they do what they have done and are going to do. Atheists need so start to assume responsibility for their actions. They need to quit trying to blame someone else for the mess that they make out of things.

Religious skepticism is more common among professors than in the general American population. However, the majority are still believers. So trying to say that the majority are atheists is not the truth at all. But then I would not expect an atheist to even know what truth is. Everything would be relative to them. Absolutes are for people that believe in God.

 

[mzungu]

You do not get it do you. Athiests are the people that are going to destroy america and it is not My "wish" that they do what they have done and are going to do. Atheists need so start to assume responsibility for their actions. They need to quit trying to blame someone else for the mess that they make out of things.

Religious skepticism is more common among professors than in the general American population. However, the majority are still believers. So trying to say that the majority are atheists is not the truth at all. But then I would not expect an atheist to even know what truth is. Everything would be relative to them. Absolutes are for people that believe in God.

I thank my lucky stars I do not live in the USA!

 

[TheReasoner]

You do not get it do you. Athiests are the people that are going to destroy america and it is not My "wish" that they do what they have done and are going to do. Atheists need so start to assume responsibility for their actions. They need to quit trying to blame someone else for the mess that they make out of things.

Religious skepticism is more common among professors than in the general American population. However, the majority are still believers. So trying to say that the majority are atheists is not the truth at all. But then I would not expect an atheist to even know what truth is. Everything would be relative to them. Absolutes are for people that believe in God.

How are they destroying America Jazer? (You do know that most christians are not creationists, right?)

 

[TheReasoner]

sounds pretty legit

Sure. The way crystal healing and quantum medicine sounds legit.

Even if Marx and Engels accepted evolution as a scientific theory this does not mean that evolution is evil. No more than the fact that Hitler considered himself a christian, and many other bloodthirsty despots like Napoleon with him. So by the rationale that Marx and Engels accepting evolution means that evolution is evil by association we have a far stronger argument in the observation that many despots have been highly religious from which by the same lack of logic we can conclude that religion itself is evil.

The problem has many factors. First: Marx and Engels are not the only thinkers in communism. The ideology is both far older (See Plato's Republic which plays on much of the same) and far more widespread. Many consider communism to be anti-religious for example. It is not. Many communistic societies have been based on religion, among them various monasteries and communes including but not limited to the one described in Acts. Even today you can find devout christian communists. Both who adhere to creationism and evolution. Because of both it's age and it's wide ideological surface area we cannot conclude that communism as proposed by Stalin and Mao for example is representative neither of communism as a whole and certainly not at all to a scientific theory which is not even related to communism as an ideology any more than satanism is related to capitalism even though one can see clear correlations between people such as Anton Lavey or Aleister Crowley and capitalism as a societal structure. Or Napoleon, St. Olav, William of Orange, and any number of self-proclaimed Christian war-mongers and despots and Christianity.

Sure it sounds legit if you don't think about it. Why else would people take it to heart? The problem with it is as outlined though.

Oh, and by the way, just to emphasize that communism is not areligious even if Marx and Engels were, here are a few prominent Christian communists:

• Richard Andriamanjato
• William Brown (bishop)
• Lucy Burman
• Étienne Cabet
• Grace Carlson
• Petr Chelčický
• Diggers
• Paolo Ferrero
• Giovanni Franzoni
• John Garden
• Charles Garry
• Pehr Götrek
• Thomas J. Hagerty
• Ab Harrewijn
• Hewlett Johnson
• John Lewis (philosopher)
• Antonio Llidó
• Gabriel Bonnot de Mably
• Nozizwe Madlala-Routledge
• Tom Mann
• A. J. Muste
• Seán O'Casey
• Lyman Paine
• Albert Edward Smith
• Camilo Torres Restrepo
• Nichi Vendola
• Wilhelm Weitling

So on that area as well the American affection for simplification of a more complex reality does a proverbial faceplant.

Are we done with communism here? Please? Talk about unrelated nonsense.

 

[Freodin]

Atheists need so start to assume responsibility for their actions. They need to quit trying to blame someone else for the mess that they make out of things.

So that would mean: if an Atheist is convicted of tax fraud and general lying and cheating, he should 'fess up and don't rely on others to bail him out by trying to show that he is a martyr for his beliefs?

Yep, I agree. Atheists should do that. Every human being should do that.

Even Creationists.