GAP Creationism VS YEC & OEC Creationism

[AV1611VET]

AV, if you're with Christ you're part of the same family as every other Christian. Lutheran, Catholic, Orthodox... You may call yourself independent, but either you're in Christ's family or you're not.
Which is it?

Let me quote my pastor from his Wednesday night message:

You might think you're in the family of God, but you are not in the family of God until you get yourself in a local New Testament church.

People tell me, 'I don't need to go to church. I can have church right here in my own home.'

Fine -- then don't tell me you're in the family of God.

The idea that there are two types of churches: the local visible church, and the universal invisible church doesn't cut it.

 

[TheReasoner]

Let me quote my pastor from his Wednesday night message:

The idea that there are two types of churches: the local visible church, and the universal invisible church doesn't cut it.

That quote did not say there is no universal church, AV. It only states you need to be part of a community. A congregation. And the bible is clear that there is a 'universal church'. 1st Corinthians 12:12-14 says: 12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.


Mzungu's posts btw, concerned themselves with people who abused the name of God for personal profit. Call them false prophets if you like. Being aware of them is important. The bible warns about them. Does it not?

 

[AV1611VET]

Mzungu's posts btw, concerned themselves with people who abused the name of God for personal profit.

So are you going to be ranting & raving against them as well; or is this pick on Kent Hovind week?

 

[mzungu]

So are you going to be ranting & raving against them as well; or is this pick on Kent Hovind week?

No it is pick on the "SIN" not the "SINNER" week. You have refused to condemn the "SINS" and have supported the sinner to no end! Support the sinner but by God you must condemn the sins he committed if you are to consider yourself a righteous person!

Yer a hard nut to crack AV! But nothing is impregnable. Someday I may yet have a straight answer from ye to a straight question. Yer a slippery person like an eel ye are

 

[TheReasoner]

So are you going to be ranting & raving against them as well; or is this pick on Kent Hovind week?

Hovind was brought up by someone else and his actions became a part of this discussion. It's natural that as the discussion has evolved into one about him it is natural to keep talking about him, right? I should say AGAIN that my problem with him is what he has DONE. And what he has done in the name of god. The problem is the sin. Hovind has sinned and sinned some more. We all do that, so the real problem is that he's made that sin a lifestyle choice which he sticks to, despite confrontation.

Hovind's is one case I know fairly well, and Hovind is one guy several people on here, including you, Jazer and Grady have defended and looked to as an authority. Despite his dire sins.

 

[mzungu]

An Evangelist Confronts Hovind
​

CHRISTIANS CONFRONT KENT HOVIND

 

[TheReasoner]

An Evangelist Confronts Hovind
​

CHRISTIANS CONFRONT KENT HOVIND

Good site. There's plenty of other stuff there. Deep and serious confrontations, and brilliant examples of arrogance and sin from Hovind's part.

A decent quote outlining why I oppose Hovind and his ilk so vehemently:

Will we convince people that Christianity is true by choosing an obviously dishonest man to defend it? Even by the secular world’s standards, Hovind is ill-mannered and deceitful; how much more so by our own?

Alas, the standard Hovind has set, smearing and backstabbing, lying and deceiving is all too common from certain parts of the church. (By which I mean Christianity AV). More so than I have experienced in 'the secular world'.

 

[createdtoworship]

Aye. Criticize only where criticism is valid. Hovind may be much, but as far as I know he's not a faith healer robbing money that way. But he's still a fraud.

Hovind may not be a prosperity theology based fraud, but he is a fraud with a fake degree who tries to pull off incredible claims like evolution being the cause of communism. Utterly inane, that claim. The first emergence of communistic ideals I am aware of is Plato's ideal state, which was classless.

And it's not alone among his crazy claims. If Hovind is one of the best creation teachers, and he has a fake degree and mixes up his philosophies and ideologies so badly he manages to claim that a classless society is somehow tied to evolution that says a lot about creation teachers, doesn't it Grady?

can you prove Hovind has a fake degree? No? Then stop saying it.

 

[Jazer]

The idea that there are two types of churches: the local visible church, and the universal invisible church doesn't cut it.

Do you have a mortgage on that building or is it paid for? The first Church had a meeting in the upper room. The same place the desciples use to sleep when they were in Jerusalem. I would consider that to be more a home then a church building. It was good enough on the day of Pentecost when the church began to be meeting in the home of Mary and her son Mark.

 

[createdtoworship]

An Evangelist Confronts Hovind
​

CHRISTIANS CONFRONT KENT HOVIND

Hitler used evolution as a way to push eugenics and racism. In Mein Kampf, Hitler used the German word for evolution (Entwicklung) many times, citing "lower human types." He criticized the Jews for bringing "Negroes into the Rhineland" with the aim of "ruining the white race by the necessarily resulting ization."

Hitler's Holocaust Inspired by Darwinism

also
planned parenthood was originally a way to keep white babies in society and getting rid of others. "there is no doubt in the minds of all thinking people that the procreation of this group should be stopped." -sanger, founder of planned parenthood said regarding black babies.

BlackGenocide.org | The Truth About Margaret Sanger

 

[createdtoworship]

Hovind was brought up by someone else and his actions became a part of this discussion. It's natural that as the discussion has evolved into one about him it is natural to keep talking about him, right? I should say AGAIN that my problem with him is what he has DONE. And what he has done in the name of god. The problem is the sin. Hovind has sinned and sinned some more. We all do that, so the real problem is that he's made that sin a lifestyle choice which he sticks to, despite confrontation.

Hovind's is one case I know fairly well, and Hovind is one guy several people on here, including you, Jazer and Grady have defended and looked to as an authority. Despite his dire sins.

if a creation museum is tax exempt Hovinds complex should have been?

 

[AV1611VET]

Do you have a mortgage on that building or is it paid for? The first Church had a meeting in the upper room. The same place the desciples use to sleep when they were in Jerusalem. I would consider that to be more a home then a church building. It was good enough on the day of Pentecost when the church began to be meeting in the home of Mary and her son Mark.

The building is paid for; and we don't think the day of Pentecost is when the church got started, we think Jesus started His church first, then died for it.

 

[AV1611VET]

In Mein Kampf, Hitler used the German word for evolution (Entwicklung) many times, citing "lower human types."

I have a confession to make:

I neither read Hitler's Mein Kampf, nor Darwin's The Preservation of Favoured Races.

 

[mzungu]

if a creation museum is tax exempt Hovinds complex should have been?

Only in America is such ignorance so prevalent that they would build a creation museum and it be tax exempt too!

Kent Hovind is a crook serving jail term! He also purposely twists and warps facts to suit his creation beliefs. At least I must give him credit for one thing: His preachings have dissuaded many from converting to creationism (Also known as The Money worshipping religion).

 

[Nostromo]

Hitler used evolution as a way to push eugenics and racism.

So Hitler misrepresented Darwin's idea as a way to get support for his own. It's not uncommon for people to twist things to suit their own ends, see AV's last post.

 

[TheReasoner]

can you prove Hovind has a fake degree? No? Then stop saying it.

I already did. His degree is FAKE. Read my earlier posts where I go through it in detail. he's a liar and a cheat, thoroughly proven by himself. His thesis does not meet any quality standards. The educational institution is not granted permission to give phds.In fact PU is not accredited by any agency recognized by the Department of Education, meaning his degree is FAKE! Doubly so.

Hitler used evolution as a way to push eugenics and racism. In Mein Kampf, Hitler used the German word for evolution (Entwicklung) many times, citing "lower human types." He criticized the Jews for bringing "Negroes into the Rhineland" with the aim of "ruining the white race by the necessarily resulting ization."

Hitler's Holocaust Inspired by Darwinism

also
planned parenthood was originally a way to keep white babies in society and getting rid of others. "there is no doubt in the minds of all thinking people that the procreation of this group should be stopped." -sanger, founder of planned parenthood said regarding black babies.

BlackGenocide.org | The Truth About Margaret Sanger

Oh. Wow. Yeah, some people abused a scientific theory for their own hateful purposes. It's not like that has ever been done with the bible or indeed anything at all. *cough* crusades*cough*witchburnings*cough*racial segregation*cough*

Grady: Hitler didn't apply evolution, he twisted and lied like crazy. Which he also did with the bible by the way. So by your logic the bible is also invalid for the same reason evolution is: Hitler abused it.


If you want to criticize evolution perhaps you should criticize it with intellectual honesty, hm? We all agree social darwinisim is bad. Or, at least I think so. I've met plenty of creationists who like it a lot. But social darwinism is not related to ToE. Capice?

And btw: Those sources... Sure they are entirely trustworthy? The one on 'black genocide' seems a little... Biased. Got more sources?

if a creation museum is tax exempt Hovinds complex should have been?

An amusement park? On par with a really bad museum? Really? The museum aims to educate, even if it's hopelessly pathetic in most respects and teaches stuff without backing - or which was proposed by people without relevant competence.

If Hovind had nothing to hide and had committed no crime then he would have nothing to fear. Instead he lied in court, conspired against it, broke the law, and more.

I do not get why you - a self-proclaiming christian - can in effect say that a man who backstabs, smears, lies, conspires against fellow man and his nation is a good representative of our faith. Hovind is not a good man. At all. He's a liar and a cheat, and his method of arguing for his position is one of ad-hominems, straw-man arguments, well-poisoning, lies, half-truths and more along those lines. Such cannot be tolerated in a preacher. Read Titus. Read about the fruits of the spirit and tell me which Hovind exhibits by his technique outlined above.

"For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you—if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict." (Titus 1:5-9).

"Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus." (1 Timothy 3:8-13)

My emphasis.

Hovind is not fit for the office he has picked up, for that reason alone he should not be backed by christians. He IS a slanderer. He IS double-tongued. He IS greedy. He obviously does NOT have a pure conscience. So he should not be allowed to have any authority in a Christian setting. He is not qualified to be an evangelist nor a teacher.

 

[LOCO]

Aspirin anyone? Why are we doomed to repeating the same old arguments.

 

[createdtoworship]

Grady: Hitler didn't apply evolution, he twisted and lied like crazy. Which he also did with the bible by the way. So by your logic the bible is also invalid for the same reason evolution is: Hitler abused it.

actually Hitler literally used concepts of evolution to push His agenda, He could not do that with the Bible.

If you want to criticize evolution perhaps you should criticize it with intellectual honesty, hm? We all agree social darwinisim is bad. Or, at least I think so. I've met plenty of creationists who like it a lot. But social darwinism is not related to ToE. Capice?

It was honest, when you believe you came from an animal all sorts of misaligned behavior comes into play.

An amusement park? On par with a really bad museum? Really? The museum aims to educate, even if it's hopelessly pathetic in most respects and teaches stuff without backing - or which was proposed by people without relevant competence.

Yes if you can have robotic dinasaurs to ride then you can have a carris wheel. You get my point. Besides how do you know that the amusement park wasn't focused on education?

I do not get why you - a self-proclaiming christian - can in effect say that a man who backstabs, smears, lies, conspires against fellow man and his nation is a good representative of our faith. Hovind is not a good man. At all. He's a liar and a cheat, and his method of arguing for his position is one of ad-hominems, straw-man arguments, well-poisoning, lies, half-truths and more along those lines. Such cannot be tolerated in a preacher. Read Titus. Read about the fruits of the spirit and tell me which Hovind exhibits by his technique outlined above.

I still don't think He believed that He was NOT exempt from taxation. So all your talk about lying, just here say. He obviously didn't believe he should be taxed how is that "being a cheat."

 

[mzungu]

Trying to get creationists to admit that a fellow creationist is a criminal is like knocking on a deaf man's door! Even if God himself condemned Hovind, the creationists would still support him! They fear being wrong more than they fear God!

It takes courage to admit when you are wrong and it is noticeably lacking in the creationist camp.

 

[USincognito]

Hitler used evolution as a way to push eugenics and racism. In Mein Kampf, Hitler used the German word for evolution (Entwicklung) many times, citing "lower human types." He criticized the Jews for bringing "Negroes into the Rhineland" with the aim of "ruining the white race by the necessarily resulting ization."

{snip a link to a positively awful website}

also
planned parenthood was originally a way to keep white babies in society and getting rid of others. "there is no doubt in the minds of all thinking people that the procreation of this group should be stopped." -sanger, founder of planned parenthood said regarding black babies.

{snip more garbage}

What part of "natural selection" are you having the most trouble with? Is it the "natural" part?

if a creation museum is tax exempt Hovinds complex should have been?

Tax exempt doesn't mean he didn't have to income tax or payroll taxes for his employees.

So Hitler misrepresented Darwin's idea as a way to get support for his own. It's not uncommon for people to twist things to suit their own ends, see AV's last post.

actually Hitler literally used concepts of evolution to push His agenda, He could not do that with the Bible.

Actually, Hitler did not. As I've already noted artificial selection practiced on humans or other animals is not evolution. Evolution is natural selection.
2,300 years before Darwin, there existed a society that wanted to breed a race of supermen and encouraged their boys to be soldiers through submission to the state, rigorous athletic training and military drills. That society was Sparta and Hitler held them in high esteem.

“Sparta must be regarded as the first Völkisch State. The exposure of the sick, weak, deformed children, in short, their destruction, was more decent and in truth a thousand times more humane than the wretched insanity of our day which preserves the most pathological subject, and indeed at any price, and yet takes the life of a hundred thousand healthy children in consequence of birth control or through abortions, in order subsequently to breed a race of degenerates burdened with illnesses.”

quoted here

Hitler didn't see other groups as unfit. He saw them as vermin or a disease infesting the Volk and thus was more inspired by Joseph Lister than Darwin.

It was honest, when you believe you came from an animal all sorts of misaligned behavior comes into play.

Unless you're a vegetable or mineral, you're an animal too.

I still don't think He believed that He was NOT exempt from taxation. So all your talk about lying, just here say. He obviously didn't believe he should be taxed how is that "being a cheat."

Hovind's a tax protester and a convicted tax cheat. His YECism aren't his only crazy ideas.