Galaxy rotation patterns are better explained by Birkeland currents than by dark matter.

Smithi

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Actually we do observe some inbound particle flow too in the form of cosmic rays which are overwhelmingly positively charged compared to the surface of Birkeland's cathode sun.

How many particles would be needed to account for the clueless Scott's 'model' of the Sun? More than a few cosmic rays! And those particles are not getting past the outflowing solar wind and IMF. Any idiot can figure that out. Why can't Scott?

See;

Dealing with Creationism in Astronomy: Electric Sun: Energy Budget from KNOWN Sources

Also note the comment on the article.
 
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Smithi

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Perhaps you can come to an agreement with sjastro, along the lines that both arguments will be presented on a different physics forum (or Quora, or PSE), and the loser never posts here again?


Er, why would I do that in the first place? Sorry, but I've seen various individuals twist my own words like a pretzel simply to suit themselves and I've seen them do it to Scott, and to Peratt, and even misuse Alfven's mathematical MHD theory to model a concept that he personally called 'pseudoscience". Math can be misused in any number of different ways.

Pay attention, Michael. I was not asking for your posts to be assessed - I was talking about linking to Scott's woo paper, and asking for an evaluation of the maths errors. If the people on whatever forum or website also see those errors, then you accept that Scott's model is baloney, and never post here again. What are you afraid of? That sjastro is right? That you'll lose yet another forum in which to spam this EU rubbish? Let's be honest; places like this are the only places where this nonsense exists. Certainly not in the scientific literature.
 
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Smithi

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Either an anode or a cathode model however is better than a model based on 'magnetic reconnection". Even an anode model has no problem creating a hot corona around the sphere in SAFIRE experiments.

Neither of those models is valid science, and has no observational (or any other kind of) evidence to support it. Might I remind you that magnetic reconnection is an observed fact;

The Earth’s Magnetosphere as a Key to the Plasma Universe
C.-G. Fälthammar (2010)
http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:484042/FULLTEXT01.pdf

The reconnection events in the geomagnetic tail that are associated with magnetospheric substorms have many similarities to the fast energy release that takes place in solar flares (Lin et al., 2008). In the magnetosphere, the phenomenon can be studied empirically in great detail by means of in situ measurements (Paschmann, 2008). The value of this for understanding solar flares and other kinds of energy release in cosmic plasmas can hardly be exaggerated.

And SAFIRE is of no relevance to solar physics. It bears no relationship whatsoever to what we know about the Sun.
 
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Michael

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Michael

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Avoidance and obfuscation. Martin Volwerk is hardly anonymous. Neither was/ are Tim Thompson and Tom Bridgman. All of them have told you that you haven't got a clue about the relevant subjects. I see no real scientists backing you up, on the other hand.

Tom Bridgman basically botched Birkeland's single model as badly as it could possibly have been botched, by falsely claiming that Birkeland supported three different solar models, when in fact Bridgman is simply describing three possible "circuit options' all in the *same* cathode surface solar model.

I have nothing but respect and admiration for Tim Thompson. He was a wealth of useful information. That doesn't make him right with respect to the value of Birkeland's solar model however. Can't recall much about Martin Volwerk by name, but maybe you're referring to someone using a handle? So what? I'm assuming that the vast majority of astronomers are wrong, not just two or three. :)
 
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Michael

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Birkeland didn't have a solar model.

Yes he did. He even estimated the voltages, the polarity of the object with respect to space, and he produced mathematical models of particle flow patterns from the sun.


And Scott, being clueless, puts the fusion in the chromosphere.

The bulk of fusion in *all* EU/PC solar models would be expected to occur *under* the surface of the photosphere, regardless of which model you're discussing. I don't care what you think about Scott frankly.
 
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Michael

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I couldn't care less what 'model' you favour. They are all easily debunked, unscientific gibberish.


Real astronomers don't agree with you as that video demonstrates, and I have no clue who you might be.

And you'll find that the strahl electrons are accompanied by ions,

Slower speed ions however.

otherwise we would have a giant, Debye length defying current. We don't.

We do have magnetic ropes connecting the sun to planets however.

Ergo, your lack of knowledge of the solar wind is no reason for anyone to take any notice of anything you say on the subject.

Ditto. You seem oblivious to the relative speeds of particles in solar wind, vs solar strahl, the magnetic ropes connecting the sun to planets, and those 150.000 light year long currents in space. Geospace science is already well aware the the universe is electrical in nature. Astronomers are playing catch up.

Electric Currents in Outer Space Run the Show - Eos
 
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Smithi

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Yes he did. He even estimated the voltages, the polarity of the object with respect to space, and he produced mathematical models of particle flow patterns from the sun.


No he didn't. We knew Jack about the Sun back then, so even if he did have a model, it would be quite worthless now



The bulk of fusion in *all* EU/PC solar models would be expected to occur *under* the surface of the photosphere, regardless of which model you're discussing. I don't care what you think about Scott frankly.

Scott is a clown. And he most definitely does not have any fusion going on under the surface. Want me to post his laughable diagram of where the fusion is happening?
 
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Michael

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Lol. The neutrino detection rate is massively higher than can be accounted for by fusion in the chromosphere. And, as I said, only an idiot (i.e. Scott) would suggest such a thing. Purely because he hasn't a clue about any relevant science, and doesn't realise the amount of Gamma that would produce, and its implications.

I lack belief that you honestly represent Scott's beliefs on this topic, and frankly it's utterly irrelevant since no EU/PC solar model is limited to fusion in the chromosphere.
 
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Smithi

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On the contrary, it matches every key observation, starting with aurora, a corona and charged particle solar wind.

Nonsense. It tells us nothing about the Sun. They create a voltage to get the solar wind from Sun to Earth. You may not have noticed, but that voltage does not exist in reality. The experiment is nothing to do with modelling the Sun. Merely the aurorae.
 
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Michael

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How many particles would be needed to account for the clueless Scott's 'model' of the Sun?

If by "Scott's model" you *really* mean Ralph Juergen's anode solar model, I have no idea. I don't personal prefer that model so I don't really care.

More than a few cosmic rays! And those particles are not getting past the outflowing solar wind and IMF. Any idiot can figure that out. Why can't Scott?

Your reliance on terms like "idiot" only betrays you lack of objectivity. It's easy to insult other by name while hiding behind handles.


It's a bit ironic that Bridgman rails against a perpetual motion machine while supporting the LCMD model. :)

What does that have to do with Birkeland's solar model or anything I personally care about?
 
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Smithi

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I lack belief that you honestly represent Scott's beliefs on this topic, and frankly it's utterly irrelevant since no EU/PC solar model is limited to fusion in the chromosphere.

Sorry, but you are being economical with the truth again. I am well aware of Scott's stupid model, from his website. He has a diagram showing the fusion, and he has it in the chromosphere.
I shall quote the idiot in question from his own woo site;

The z-pinch effect of high intensity, parallel current filaments in an arc plasma is very strong. Whatever nuclear fusion is taking place on the Sun is probably occurring here in the double layer (DL) at the top of the photosphere (not deep within the core).

The Electric Sun
 
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Smithi

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If by "Scott's model" you *really* mean Ralph Juergen's anode solar model, I have no idea. I don't personal prefer that model so I don't really care.

Because it directly relates to the total incompetence of Scott. And you are the one championing his stupid Birkeland current 'model' for galactic rotation curves. Showing that he is clueless therefore has a direct bearing on his ability to understand any of the relevant science.


Your reliance on terms like "idiot" only betrays you lack of objectivity. It's easy to insult other by name while hiding behind handles.

Nope, I'd say it was an accurate assessment of Scott and his laughable claims.



It's a bit ironic that Bridgman rails against a perpetual motion machine while supporting the LCMD model. :)

What does that have to do with Birkeland's solar model or anything I personally care about?

Because you brought up cosmic rays when I asked how the clown Scott was getting his incoming current. We all know it is impossible, I was just showing why, from a qualified scientist like Bridgman. He is far more an authority on the subject than anybody associated with EU woo.
 
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Michael

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Because it directly relates to the total incompetence of Scott.

So says an anonymous handle who professes to read the mind of Scott.

And you are the one championing his stupid Birkeland current 'model' for galactic rotation curves.

You've yet to point out a problem or objection to his model that I didn't address in this thread. I've even pointed out some math errors *and* some physical misconceptions about his model. Your childish name calling is getting old.

Showing that he is clueless therefore has a direct bearing on his ability to understand any of the relevant science.

So far everything you've said has been wrong, so what gives you the right to call anyone "clueless"? You seem to write off Nobel prize winning authors on a whim without a reason too, so I'm not impressed with your assessment of various people.

Nope, I'd say it was an accurate assessment of Scott and his laughable claims.

I think your understanding of these topics is laughable frankly.

Because you brought up cosmic rays when I asked how the clown Scott was getting his incoming current.

No, I mentioned it in connection with *Birkeland's cathode solar model*, and it's mostly internally powered in the first place.

We all know it is impossible, I was just showing why, from a qualified scientist like Bridgman. He is far more an authority on the subject than anybody associated with EU woo.

I've seen Brigdman misrepresent Birkeland's *single* cathode solar model, so I have no confidence is his arguments about other solar models and I'm not even interested in reading them.
 
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Smithi

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So says an autonomous handle who professes to read the mind of Scott.

Nope, says someone who can understand enough of the science to see that Scott is a clown, and is trivially wrong. Remember - he isn't remotely qualified in this area. You will find that non-anonymous astrophysicists have said the same thing. Including Tim Thompson, numerous times, and ditto Tom Bridgman.



You've yet to point out a problem or objection to his model that I didn't address in this thread. I've even pointed out some math errors *and* some physical misconceptions about his model. Your childish name calling is getting old.

He screwed up the maths, has no mechanism for moving stars around, and has no evidence for the existence of these impossible currents. I'd say that is a slam-dunk, yes?



So far everything you've said has been wrong, so what gives you the right to call anyone "clueless"? You seem to write off Nobel prize winning authors on a whim without a reason too, so I'm not impressed with your assessment of various people.

Nothing I have said has been wrong. And I didn't write-off Alfven, I merely pointed out that he was wrong about magnetic reconnection, as everybody now agrees, and that he knew that the Sun was nuclear powered. Anybody who is claiming that it isn't (such as Scott) is surely the one writing- off Alfven, n'est-ce pas?


I think your understanding of these topics is laughable frankly.

I'd say it is far better than yours or Scott's or Thornhill's. Mind you, that isn't saying much!

No, I mentioned it in connection with *Birkeland's cathode solar model*, and it's mostly internally powered in the first place.

Either way, you are talking about a failed 'model'



I've seen Brigdman misrepresent Birkeland's *single* cathode solar model, so I have no confidence is his arguments about other solar models and I'm not even interested in reading them.

Birkeland is an irrelevance. And Bridgman is far better qualified and knowledgeable in this area that any of the clowns associated with EU.
 
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Michael

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Nope, says someone who can understand enough of the science to see that Scott is a clown, and is trivially wrong.

By your personal attack logic, when Einstein doubted the validity of QM, it made him a "clown" and trivially wrong about everything he ever wrote about. Your logic is based upon a fallacy. It's also nothing but an ad hom.

Remember - he isn't remotely qualified in this area. You will find that non-anonymous astrophysicists have said the same thing. Including Tim Thompson, numerous times, and ditto Tom Bridgman.

But again, I've seen Bridgman make *significant* mistakes associated with Birkeland's model, so I don't find his arguments to be particularly compelling. I actually agree with Tim with respect to Juergen's anode solar model, but that has nothing to do with Scott's Birkeland current paper.

He screwed up the maths, has no mechanism for moving stars around, and has no evidence for the existence of these impossible currents. I'd say that is a slam-dunk, yes?

No. Like I said I've already pointed out math and physics errors made by Scott's detractors. I haven't seen a reasonable rebuttal to those posts.

Nothing I have said has been wrong. And I didn't write-off Alfven, I merely pointed out that he was wrong about magnetic reconnection, as everybody now agrees,

A lot of EU/PC proponents reject it today, and until I see you reproduce a working corona, I'll withhold any confidence in the claim. I've never even seen a good paper about laboratory experiments that methodically differentiated between "magnetic reconnection" in a plasma and ordinary induction processes.

and that he knew that the Sun was nuclear powered.

So did Birkeland and so did Juergens. Juegens thought that the sun might be at least *partially* powered by external currents because his model was written during the "missing neutrino" days of solar physics theory. Even still Juergen's model emitted neutrinos due to fusion in and around the sun, about a 1/3rd of the observed total because the other 2/3rds were thought to be missing at the time he wrote his model. I think Alfven and Peratt might not have been particularly happy having their names associated with his external power model.

Anybody who is claiming that it isn't (such as Scott) is surely the one writing- off Alfven, n'est-ce pas?

Not his entire cosmology model, just the solar model Alfven preferred.

I'd say it is far better than yours or Scott's or Thornhill's. Mind you, that isn't saying much!

The fact that your argument requires an endless stream of personal insults leads me to believe that your argument is extremely weak. Thornhill seems like he's always been more of an "ideas" person, and I haven't always agreed with his ideas. Scott's belief about solar physics is irrelevant to me personally, just as Einstein's beliefs about QM are irrelevant to me, but Scott's Birkeland current paper looks quite good, and quite congruent with counter rotation patterns observed in galaxies, while also eliminating any need for "dark matter" to explain galaxy or cluster rotation patterns.

Either way, you are talking about a failed 'model'

Nope. Birkeland's model works in the lab. Even an anode solar model works in the lab for that matter. The only model I can be sure is a failed model is the standard model because it's presumed power source of "magnetic reconnection" is convection, and that was shown to be off by two whole orders of magnitude.

Birkeland is an irrelevance.

Only to the arrogant, just like Aristarchus of Samos was an an irrelevance to the true believers in Ptolemy.

And Bridgman is far better qualified and knowledgeable in this area that any of the clowns associated with EU.

That's certainly not true. Most EU/PC proponents I talk with know that Birkeland only supported one cathode solar model, not three.
 
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Smithi said:
That would appear to be a lie, Michael. I do not see any refutation of sjastro's analysis.


You have made this claim repeatedly which fails to right the mathematical wrongs in Scott's model and the physics errors.
On top of this you were caught out presenting evidence for Birkeland currents which turned out to being phoney as it was not an astronomical image of a galaxy but an artist's rendition.

As much as the TOS prevents me from revealing your true motivation behind these posts, it is painfully obvious as Smithi and SelfSim have attested to.
 
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Smithi

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By your personal attack logic, when Einstein doubted the validity of QM, it made him a "clown" and trivially wrong about everything he ever wrote about. Your logic is based upon a fallacy. It's also nothing but an ad hom.

Equating the idiot Scott with Einstein is laughable.



But again, I've seen Bridgman make *significant* mistakes associated with Birkeland's model, so I don't find his arguments to be particularly compelling. I actually agree with Tim with respect to Juergen's anode solar model, but that has nothing to do with Scott's Birkeland current paper.

Birkeland didn't have a model.



No. Like I said I've already pointed out math and physics errors made by Scott's detractors. I haven't seen a reasonable rebuttal to those posts.

No you haven't. And you seem to lack the necessaries to put his garbage to the test on an independent forum.



A lot of EU/PC proponents reject it today, and until I see you reproduce a working corona, I'll withhold any confidence in the claim. I've never even seen a good paper about laboratory experiments that methodically differentiated between "magnetic reconnection" in a plasma and ordinary induction processes.

Rubbish. A bunch of unqualified Velikovskians counts for zero. And I couldn't give a fig about about your belief system. MRx is a proven fact. Nobody is claiming otherwise. If you believe otherwise, link to the papers.


So did Birkeland and so did Juergens. Juegens thought that the sun might be at least *partially* powered by external currents because his model was written during the "missing neutrino" days of solar physics theory. Even still Juergen's model emitted neutrinos due to fusion in and around the sun, about a 1/3rd of the observed total because the other 2/3rds were thought to be missing at the time he wrote his model. I think Alfven and Peratt might not have been particularly happy having their names associated with his external power model.

Juergens was another clueless EE. He never published his risible model.



Not his entire cosmology model, just the solar model Alfven preferred.

Alfven's cosmology model is trivially wrong.


The fact that your argument requires an endless stream of personal insults leads me to believe that your argument is extremely weak. Thornhill seems like he's always been more of an "ideas" person, and I haven't always agreed with his ideas. Scott's belief about solar physics is irrelevant to me personally, just as Einstein's beliefs about QM are irrelevant to me, but Scott's Birkeland current paper looks quite good, and quite congruent with counter rotation patterns observed in galaxies, while also eliminating any need for "dark matter" to explain galaxy or cluster rotation patterns.

Thornhill is clueless. He believes Earth used to orbit Saturn! He is a Velikovskian loon. Scott hasn't got a clue, and his 'model' is pathetic, and erroneous. Hence why it sits ignored in a predatory journal. The fact that you think it has merit is an irrelevance, as you have little knowledge nor expertise in the relevant science. And counter-rotations have been studied, and appear to be of material of different ages. Nothing to do with the impossible woo that Scott has dreamed up.


Nope. Birkeland's model works in the lab. Even an anode solar model works in the lab for that matter. The only model I can be sure is a failed model is the standard model because it's presumed power source of "magnetic reconnection" is convection, and that was shown to be off by two whole orders of magnitude.

Nope. Both models fail by observation. And MRx is observed in solar flares;

Imaging Observations of Magnetic Reconnection in a Solar Eruptive Flare
Li, Y. et al.
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/80685476.pdf

Ergo, your objections are worthless.



Only to the arrogant, just like Aristarchus of Samos was an an irrelevance to the true believers in Ptolemy.

Lol. Don't you get bored of posting the same rubbish?



That's certainly not true. Most EU/PC proponents I talk with know that Birkeland only supported one cathode solar model, not three.

Couldn't care less. None of the models are relevant to our current knowledge.
 
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