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Fuzzy thinking in ethics...

GrowingSmaller

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2+2=4 isn't an opinion...it's a fact.
So whats an opinion other than a belief then, especially in the context of ethics?

I have the opinion that 2+2=4, I have the opinion that behaving , for the most part, like a degeneate punk is antihumanist and therefore wrong, vicious at least....

Whats the difference between the two opinions? Note, lets imagine you are going toaffect the culture of the local alleyway with your answer. No getting away with hand waving and claiming "it doesnt matter".


See below:


Koran surah 83

1 Woe to those that deal in fraud,
2 Those who, when they have to receive by measure from men, exact full measure,
3 But when they have to give by measure or weight to men, give less than due.
4 Do they not think that they will be called to account?
 
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PsychoSarah

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So whats an opinion other than a belief then, especially in the context of ethics?

I have the opinion that 2+2=4, I have the opinion that behaving , for the most part, like a degeneate punk is antihumanist and therefore wrong, vicious at least....

Whats the difference between the two opinions? Note, lets imagine you are going toaffect the culture of the local alleyway with your answer. No getting away with hand waving and claiming "it doesnt matter".


See below:

Math doesn't do opinions. Math does right and wrong, and is probably the most objective field of study humans have and ever will come up with.

Perceptions on behaviors however are highly subjective, with no absolute right or wrong. No matter your position on that topic, there will be someone out there who thinks differently and likely a few who are completely opposite in opinion.
 
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Ana the Ist

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In some contexts, but not in others. First one has to buy into the whole notion of 2. If I have one apple and another apple is placed next to it do I have 2 apples or do I have an individual apple placed next to another individual apple? If the context is mathematics, one might be inclined to say 2 apples, but if the context is reality, who can say with any firm conviction that these are not individual apples placed next to each other but rather a collective thing called 2 apples? The former idea seems to be very hard to accept for those that have been told in school that mathematics is somehow a factual representation of reality rather than the flawed and non inclusive abstraction that it is . Much like the poster that stated that white lies must be a good thing because someone(s) in a formal educational setting said it was so.

If you possess 2 apples, then you have 2 apples. :doh:

You're right about one thing though, you need to understand what the number 2 is.
 
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Ana the Ist

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So whats an opinion other than a belief then, especially in the context of ethics?

I have the opinion that 2+2=4, I have the opinion that behaving , for the most part, like a degeneate punk is antihumanist and therefore wrong, vicious at least....

Whats the difference between the two opinions? Note, lets imagine you are going toaffect the culture of the local alleyway with your answer. No getting away with hand waving and claiming "it doesnt matter".


See below:

The difference would be that you can prove 2+2=4. :doh:
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Morals are absolute. Justifying or rationalizing bad behavior doesn't change that. When I do wrong, and I do sometimes do wrong, I know it's still wrong. Too many believe that because they have chosen to do 'wrong' that it suddenly becomes 'right'. People, including myself sometimes, are really screwy.
 
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Eudaimonist

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In some contexts, but not in others. First one has to buy into the whole notion of 2. If I have one apple and another apple is placed next to it do I have 2 apples or do I have an individual apple placed next to another individual apple?

Both statements are equally true. They are not mutually exclusive statements.

What is wrong with the "whole notion" of 2? Are you thinking that it might have some invisible Platonic reality? If not -- if "2" is simply a measurement by selectively considering entities -- there is no problem.

If the context is mathematics, one might be inclined to say 2 apples, but if the context is reality, who can say with any firm conviction that these are not individual apples placed next to each other but rather a collective thing called 2 apples?

I can. There are two apples there. Fact.

That doesn't mean that they are a "collective thing", but that there are two individual apples present. They are "mentally collected", and that doesn't eliminate the facticity of the claim that there are two apples.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Architeuthus

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There are factually true or false moral statements, if you are willing to supply the necessary context.

Of course there are. Even if one doesn't believe in moral absolutes, there are factually true moral statements of the form "A is wrong => B is wrong."

However, that doesn't relate to fuzzy logic, IMO.

The formal logic of morality and obligation is "deontic logic." The OP is essentially arguing for a "fuzzy" version of that. That's been suggested before (e.g. here) but I can't comment on how helpful (or even how consistent) the idea is. Google suggests there hasn't been a lot of work on fuzzy deontic logic.
 
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Architeuthus

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I can. There are two apples there. Fact.

There is a difference between "I can see 13 apples" (an empirical/contingent statement about apples) and "6 + 7 = 13" or "13 is prime" (necessary/a priori truths about "13").

I don't think it's possible to rewrite every necessary/a priori truth about integers as an empirical statement about apples.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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What do you call it when close up we can make decisions easier, but for more distant or larger scale deliberations uncertauinty increases.

Like I want to avoid beaking my arm again, for sure. But I am not sure that putting a few pennies in a charity box would be better than buying a snack.

Thats why I mentioned fuzziness in part.

On a small and close up we can be deductive about is and ought, ("breaking arm is bad, therefore aviod for sure") but as the situation becomes more complex, we can only transition to inductive decision making.

Hows about a transition from "rule of law" to "rule of thumb"?
 
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Architeuthus

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What do you call it when close up we can make decisions easier, but for more distant or larger scale deliberations uncertauinty increases.

Well, outcomes tend to be more uncertain for longer-term actions, and so a degree of probabilistic reasoning is perhaps necessary.
 
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True Scotsman

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Why prioritise property relations above genral human welfare? Arent political rules meant to be for the human good?


Thats the way I see it, rules are fallible attempts to create a benign society, so we need compensatory measures to make up for their weaknesses.

Even at school we were taught that white lies are socialy acceptable, and even proper in due context.

Because without the right to create, own, protect, and dispose of property, there is no society and no Human good, and if you look around the world today you will see that to the extent that property rights are respected there is a better standard of living for everyone and where they are not, to the extent that they are not, there is misery. Just look at North Korea vs. Hong Kong. Look at West Germany vs. East Germany before the wall came down.

The founding fathers could have easily listed property rights along side life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. They didn't need to because property rights are implicit in all of those other rights. Your first property is your life. If you don't have a right to property then you don't have a right to your life.

Property rights are not a primary. They rest on man's individual rights which are not handed down by a deity or society but are inherent in man's nature. They are conditions of existence required by man's nature for his proper survival. It is helpful in these kinds of issues to look at the fundamental principles. The fundamental principle of individual rights is that man has a right to live for his own sake. The fundamental principle of collectivism/socialism is that man has no right to live for his own sake but must live for the group or the tribe or the society. By placing the group as the standard then each individual man becomes a means to the ends of others and a sacrificial animal and that is what you find in every society that places the group over the individual. Hundreds of millions slaughtered in the 20th century alone.

Don't fool yourself as many do by rationalizing that the fundamental principle of collectivism is a noble principle that was corrupted by Hitler, Stalin and Mao. It is the principle itself that is corrupt and Hitler and his fellows practiced it the only way it can be, by turning the world into a sacrificial furnace.
 
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Eudaimonist

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There is a difference between "I can see 13 apples" (an empirical/contingent statement about apples) and "6 + 7 = 13"

It's no different as long as we aren't falling for straw man empiricism. Our experience of the world doesn't have to be: "Me caveman. Me see woman." If you aren't beguiled by any rationalism/empiricism dichotomy, and understand that people can experience and mentally abstract from this experience and form logical principles, it's easy to see how experience and mathematics relate to each other.

"I see six apples. I see seven apples. Together, I see thirteen apples. I understand that it can be no other way without adding or removing apples. The principle would have to be the same for any non-apples because it involves similar procedures of abstraction."

You can come to understand the function of addition through empirical tests. You had probably done this when you were three years old and were learning what addition was, and how numbers related to whatever it is that you were practicing counting.

I don't see mathematical truths as fully a priori. Yes, they are truths of a logical system, but we learn the system through our experience of reality. That is what gives mathematics meaning to us. It is only later in life that we are able to abstract mathematics into its own Platonic world, forgetting why it made sense to us in the first place.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Architeuthus

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"I see six apples. I see seven apples. Together, I see thirteen apples. I understand that it can be no other way without adding or removing apples.

6 + 7 = 13 is true in all possible worlds; it is not an empirical/contingent statement. On the other hand "I see 13 apples" is empirical/contingent - it depends on the real-world situation right now.

You can come to understand the function of addition through empirical tests.

True, but that doesn't make 6 + 7 = 13 empirical/contingent.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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Because without the right to create, own, protect, and dispose of property, there is no society and no Human good, and if you look around the world today you will see that to the extent that property rights are respected there is a better standard of living for everyone and where they are not, to the extent that they are not, there is misery. Just look at North Korea vs. Hong Kong. Look at West Germany vs. East Germany before the wall came down.

The founding fathers could have easily listed property rights along side life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. They didn't need to because property rights are implicit in all of those other rights. Your first property is your life. If you don't have a right to property then you don't have a right to your life.

Property rights are not a primary. They rest on man's individual rights which are not handed down by a deity or society but are inherent in man's nature. They are conditions of existence required by man's nature for his proper survival. It is helpful in these kinds of issues to look at the fundamental principles. The fundamental principle of individual rights is that man has a right to live for his own sake. The fundamental principle of collectivism/socialism is that man has no right to live for his own sake but must live for the group or the tribe or the society. By placing the group as the standard then each individual man becomes a means to the ends of others and a sacrificial animal and that is what you find in every society that places the group over the individual. Hundreds of millions slaughtered in the 20th century alone.

Don't fool yourself as many do by rationalizing that the fundamental principle of collectivism is a noble principle that was corrupted by Hitler, Stalin and Mao. It is the principle itself that is corrupt and Hitler and his fellows practiced it the only way it can be, by turning the world into a sacrificial furnace.
You seem to be thinking in black and white terms, one extreme or the other. Of cousrse we do well with property, but that doesnt mean we have to pursue right wing policies if thaey dont help people to do well.
Society is like a bell curve with more and less gifted people, and winners and losers. If you want to impress upon me the interests of the winners over the losers, then that sound like social darwinism.

The strong have to dominate over the weak?

I am not saying concentrate only on the weak, but have some balance in the name of fairness. If property rights do not reflect this in a fairt society then why ought the losers bother respecting them. It doesnt add up. You say the cake is good for all, its a good recipe, and then eat 95 % for yourself, so to speak.
 
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Eudaimonist

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6 + 7 = 13 is true in all possible worlds; it is not an empirical/contingent statement. On the other hand "I see 13 apples" is empirical/contingent - it depends on the real-world situation right now.

It might be true in all possible worlds, but that makes it no less empirical. A statement can be "contingent" on all possible worlds.

But I really don't speak this philosophical language. I don't like this rationalistic style of philosophy. I've said all that I've intended.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Conscious Z

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Fuzzy rules in ethics...
For example "theft is wrong" may not be absolute, but context dependent, or have exceptions. And therefore be partially both true AND false.

No proposition can be both true and false. That violates the principle of bivalence. There can be context sensitivity, but that doesn't mean it is both true and false.

Perceptions on behaviors however are highly subjective, with no absolute right or wrong. No matter your position on that topic, there will be someone out there who thinks differently and likely a few who are completely opposite in opinion.

Disagreement on a matter does not entail that there is no truth to the matter.

Stealing is wrong. Period.

Stealing is wrong until someone needs to steal is the logic of looters.

There is no moral duty to help the destitute. One may help the destitute if one wants with his own money, voluntarily. Anything else is the policy of criminals.

So if an evil terrorist has devised a powerful atomic weapon, and you know he plans to destroy NYC with it, it would be wrong to steal his detonator?

That is fine in human applications. But in theology, "both true and false" means false. So fuzzy logic does not apply to theology.
To emphasize: In theology, "99.99% true and 0.01% false" IS false.

No, "both true and false" is impossible. It violates the principle of bivalence.

6 + 7 = 13 is true in all possible worlds; it is not an empirical/contingent statement. On the other hand "I see 13 apples" is empirical/contingent - it depends on the real-world situation right now.

This is spot-on. I believe Eudaimonist might be referencing the fact that there is no rigid distinction between analytic and synthetic claims, but it still remains true that "6+7=13" is true in all possible worlds, whereas "There are thirteen apples on the table" is not.
 
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Architeuthus

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It might be true in all possible worlds, but that makes it no less empirical. A statement can be "contingent" on all possible worlds.

Well, no, actually. "True in all possible worlds" is the exact opposite of empirical/contingent.

"Water boils at 100 degrees" is an empirical/contingent fact. In a different universe with different laws of physics, that might not be true.

"Barack Obama is President of the USA" is an empirical/contingent fact. In an alternate history, that might not be true.

But 6 + 7 = 13 is not an empirical/contingent fact. In every alternate history, under every alternate set of physical laws, and in every alternate universe, it would still be true.

But I really don't speak this philosophical language. I don't like this rationalistic style of philosophy.

De gustibus non est disputandum.
 
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