Fundemental Question

[Exial]

Over the past weeks I've been attempting to gain a better knowledge or religion and Christianity. After numerous debates with Christians I have only found one thing all Christians share..

You all interpret the Bible differently

That would seem to me to involve contradictions, and it does in certain places. Even though all of you agree that your Bible is the truth and divinely inspired or written you still end up with differing opinions on what its message is. This leads me to believe that Bible is not divinely inspired, but written and invented by fallible men thus leading other fallible men to draw their own fallible interpretations from it. If god has truly sent us a divine message, and this represented by the bible then why do we see so many differing opinions on what the message actually is? Kinda destroys the value of a particular message if people only choose to believe some of it.

So my last question to this forum is:

What evidence do you have that your Bible is the word of God/divinely inspired/the truth?

(note: prophetic evidence must show the exact verse and prediction although these always end up being extremely vague. Anecdotal evidence such as personal experience is not valid, you cannot hope to convince any rational person of anything based on JUST YOUR personal experience. It may be a good enough reason for you to believe but not me.)

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Hi,

The bible says: Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. - 1Co 14:1 and Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. - Co 12:7 - 12:11

The bible says God gives spiritual gifts to his followers if they seek them. I know of many who operate in those gifts, just normal people who have submitted them selves to God, in healing maraculous powers, etc. I also have had times where God has gifted me with the ability to decern his voice (a thing I am still learning I must add) but I have included true stories from my life below that show this in action, as well as once I performed an act of physically healing a sick woman:

One morning I got up and walked into the hall and I heard a voice that I believed was God say "How would you like to be stabbed in the Valley". The Valley was known as the rough end of town, and the voice scared me a little, I wondered if I had done something to offend God. I had planned to go down to the Valley to ask people out to church as was my habit at the time. In the end I went anyway regardless of the fear. I walked up to the first person I met and asked him if he would like to go out to church. He said to me "I am an atheist, I don't believe in God". I just said "fine", but hoped to change his mind. He then proceeded to unbutton his shirt and showed me scar marks up and down his chest and stomach. He said to me, "I was attacked by a knife wielding man in the Valley some time ago and spent months recovering in hospital, How could God allow that to happen to me". Then I knew why God had said in the morning "How would I like to be stabbed?". God understood this man, but had a good plan for him. Some weeks latter this man came out to church and became a Christian.

Some time after the second Gulf War an Australian man Douglas Wood was captured by terrorists in Iraq, who made demands for a ransom or he would be executed. I set about fasting and praying for his release, I said to God "You know where he is....tell me". Three words entered my mind ABC, Bizaar and "A-meal". I thought "I am going crazy what has all that got to do with him. Bizaar I though "this is Bizarre". I thought maybe "A-meal" is a town so I searched a map of Iraq for a town of that name, but found nothing that really matched. Some time latter Douglas Wood was freed by US troops who came across his captors. It was not until latter that I actually discovered what the three words meant. I was on a forum libertyunites.us and came across a post by a user called ABC in the post she appealed to the captors to release Douglas Wood because he had gone to a/or the Bazaar and bought food for homeless people and had provided them with "A-meal". I believe God saw this action too and blessed Douglas Wood with an escape from his captors.

One time I thought about suing some one but felt bad about it because I did not want to give a bad impression about what a Christian is like. So I prayed and asked God to show me clearly what to do. Latter that day I opened my bible at random, selecting a random verse and it opened to 1Co 6:7 "Nay, already it is altogether a defect in you, that ye have lawsuits one with another. Why not rather take wrong? why not rather be defrauded?" So I knew what God was thinking, no lawsuit. From this I do not believe God was saying the legal system is wrong just this particular action.

At one point in my life I was praying for scientific cures for illnesses like cancer. Because I was on a science kick I thought would it not be fun to create a real life dinosaur. I wanted Jesus just for fun to show me how to create a Real Live Dinosaur, he can show us anything you know if he wants, but when I asked him how to start recreating a Dinosaur. Jesus spoke into my head the sentence "bood", a term I had never heard before. I decided to look it up on the Internet and I found out the following: You see, the children of Semai are taught from an early age, the concept of "bood." If a parent asks a child to do something and the child replies " bood," it means in other words, "I don't feel like doing that," and the matter is closed. Bood means gently No.

One day I was witnessing to a Muslim and he asked me why we ate pork. I used the verse out of the bible which says "It is not what enters the mouth that defiles a man but what comes out of the mouth". After some general discussion I finished for the night. I asked God to give me a verse from the bible to encourage me. I opened the bible at random and selected a random verse. It opened to the exact same verse that I had used with the Muslim. The one about food not defiling. So I knew that God was approving of what I had been talking about.

Wisdom, like an inheritance, is a good thing and benefits those who see the sun. - Ecc 7:11 I have always considered it wise to seek God for every thing in life. By this I do not mean "God, what should I eat" or "what should I wear". Not small insignificant things but things that matter. God cares about the things that we see as significant, things that are important to us. There was a point in my life where I was single, unmarried and constantly bombarded by the worlds system of doing things, a system to which I was diametrically opposed. I wanted to find a partner, but was not really sure how to go about it. By trade I am a computer programmer so the Internet was very familiar to me. So I tried internet dating. I remember getting to a point of meeting quite a few people but not really fully clicking with any of them. So I prayed and said out of all the thousands of people that are online in the world there must be some one who could make a good partner for me. So I deliberately listened for God’s voice, and prayed once. The word “Grace” entered my mind. So I typed “Grace” into the search box (that was used to search for profiles). The first profile to come up was of Ru Chen. I had been contacted by Ru Chen once, but we were unable to send messages to one another over the site for some unknown reason. So I tried to contact her again, but again with no success. Some time latter Ru was able to contact me using an email I had sent to her when she had first contacted me, after chatting online for some weeks we decided to meet. We went out together to the movies and just eating out, and seeing each other for some time. Eventually we decided to marry. We went out and bought a ring. Some months latter we got married.

This is a story of God working between me an my wife to get his point accross. One night I was laying on my bed and the verse of scripture came into my mind "With patience possess your souls". Latter that week my wife called me into the bedroom where she was reading the bible not knowing anyting about what I had heard said to me "this is a verse you will like", a thing she never has done before. It was Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord's coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains. You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near.Jas 5:7-8 It was not that I was not being patient, for I was, when talking to my mother about it we both felt it ment, the coming of the LORD is near means his intervention in our lives is near. When we are patient we reap a harvest of his blessing given time. So by faith I believe some time, sooner or latter God will do something if we just wait patiently and obediently for him to act, even if it is his final salvation on his return.


I was praying for all Muslum countries on the 27 of Febuary 2011, and specifically for the president of Iran, which I do whenever I pray for them. That God might bring them to salvation that can only be found in the Love and mercy of Jesus Christ. Like the bible says there is no other name given under heaven or earth by which man can be saved. I went into the kitchen, and asked the LORD for a verse of scripture for him, I opened the bible up to a verse, It was quite condemning, so I said LORD you must be able to have more mercy than that. So I opend up the bible again and it opened to "Seek good, not evil, that you may live. Then the LORD God Almighty will be with you, just as you say he is." - Amo 5:14. I was not sure if either of the verses were for him, so I did not send anything. The next day I was having a break from work and thought of him again. So I prayed LORD do you have anything that I can send to bless him with. This time I was on the computer so I used my electronic bible, a different one to the night before. I randomly selected a verse, not looking at where I was choosing and it rested on the exact same verse I had received the night before. "Seek good, not evil, that you may live. Then the LORD God Almighty will be with you, just as you say he is." - Amo 5:14 So I knew God had chosen that verse for him. So I sent him the verse of scripture and an encouragement to seek Jesus. Then on the 6th of March a Sunday I set about praying and fasting, and prayed for the president and all the members of his parliment, again I said LORD give me a verse for them, bless them and bring them to you, don't dispose of them, even if they have resisted you, just bless them with salvation. I opened the bible and again, and my finger rested on "Seek good, not evil, that you may live. Then the LORD God Almighty will be with you, just as you say he is." - Amo 5:14 I have to admit I am not sure what God's plans are for them, but I feel these verses sum up the attitude it is wise to have, "The highway of the upright avoids evil; he who guards his way guards his life. Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud. Whoever gives heed to instruction prospers, and blessed is he who trusts in the LORD". Pro 16:17-20.

In response to your question, I say the bible is true because it still works today. p.s. these things a quite common among the people I know.

 

[elman]

Over the past weeks I've been attempting to gain a better knowledge or religion and Christianity. After numerous debates with Christians I have only found one thing all Christians share..

You all interpret the Bible differently

That would seem to me to involve contradictions, and it does in certain places. Even though all of you agree that your Bible is the truth and divinely inspired or written you still end up with differing opinions on what its message is. This leads me to believe that Bible is not divinely inspired, but written and invented by fallible men thus leading other fallible men to draw their own fallible interpretations from it. If god has truly sent us a divine message, and this represented by the bible then why do we see so many differing opinions on what the message actually is? Kinda destroys the value of a particular message if people only choose to believe some of it.

So my last question to this forum is:

What evidence do you have that your Bible is the word of God/divinely inspired/the truth?

(note: prophetic evidence must show the exact verse and prediction although these always end up being extremely vague. Anecdotal evidence such as personal experience is not valid, you cannot hope to convince any rational person of anything based on JUST YOUR personal experience. It may be a good enough reason for you to believe but not me.)

Actually we do not all agree that the Bible as in the King James Version is the dictated word of God and is error free. Many of us who do not believe that still believe that Jesus Christ is the Word of God incarnate and that we were created by a loving Creator that will respond to our love for others. There is no objective proof for the existence of God. If you find evidence to support the assumption of a loving Creator, you will need to find it subjectively in your own life.

 

[solarwave]

You all interpret the Bible differently

Yup

So my last question to this forum is:

What evidence do you have that your Bible is the word of God/divinely inspired/the truth?

I would say the Bible was written by fallible men and that it is interpreted by fallible men. Even though this is true I think the Bible is inspired. I believe the men who wrote the Bible were inspired by God in their lives and wrote down their impressions of God from their encounters with Him.

I am also comming more to the conclusion that other Holy Books could be inspired by God too, but being Christian I would think the Bible is the closest to the truth. It seems to me that the Bible shows the development of the idea of God and morality. The feelings, morality and attitudes towards life are also an important part of faith as well as truth. No one will ever have the full truth so it is important while we are here to believe the right things in our hearts too.

I hope that helps and doesn't seem too emotive rather than rational.

 

[realtruth101]

Over the past weeks I've been attempting to gain a better knowledge or religion and Christianity. After numerous debates with Christians I have only found one thing all Christians share..

You all interpret the Bible differently

That would seem to me to involve contradictions, and it does in certain places. Even though all of you agree that your Bible is the truth and divinely inspired or written you still end up with differing opinions on what its message is. This leads me to believe that Bible is not divinely inspired, but written and invented by fallible men thus leading other fallible men to draw their own fallible interpretations from it. If god has truly sent us a divine message, and this represented by the bible then why do we see so many differing opinions on what the message actually is? Kinda destroys the value of a particular message if people only choose to believe some of it.

So my last question to this forum is:

What evidence do you have that your Bible is the word of God/divinely inspired/the truth?

(note: prophetic evidence must show the exact verse and prediction although these always end up being extremely vague. Anecdotal evidence such as personal experience is not valid, you cannot hope to convince any rational person of anything based on JUST YOUR personal experience. It may be a good enough reason for you to believe but not me.)

Good observation!.....while there are huge doctrinal differences the one thing I think all Christians would agree on is that Jesus is coming back, and when He does, whether you like the idea of God or not, the bible says EVERY KNEE will bow before Him so all Christians are just trying to stay on the winning team, see the bible no matter who interprets it all come to the same conclusion satan loses, and everyone who he fools to side with him. And Jesus wins and all those who find the narrow gate will enter into an eternal kingdom with Him. everyone who didn't want a god, will not be burdened or forced to have one, they will find that the definition of hell is the complete and whole absence of God. They will get exactly what they wanted a world without God. but they fail to realize what this godless world will look like, and there is no turning back or second chances after the final decision is made

 

[HisHomeMaker]

You may enjoy reading the book Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis.

 

[JT912]

Dear Exial I admire the fact that you are searching for some sort of validity when it comes to the Christian faith. It seems to me that you are serious about finding out real answers concerning the scriptures "Bible." In all honesty, I'll be the first to tell you that what your really looking for in terms of valid proof won't ever be found. No man has ever seen God because God is a Spirit, and we are carnal. God chooses to only respond to and by "Faith." God has given humanity proof of His existence through His son Jesus Christ. If we don't believe in His son, then we choose to stay in unbelief which profits nothing. If your serious about finding God ask Him to reveal Himself to you. If your sincere in heart and open He will show up in your life because He is faithful and will never despise a broken and contrite heart. He will change and radically transform your life like He did for me and still is doing for millions around the world. The point I'm making is that without faith nobody can see God.

 

[Walter Kovacs]

You all interpret the Bible differently

You sound surprised.

That would seem to me to involve contradictions, and it does in certain places. Even though all of you agree that your Bible is the truth and divinely inspired or written you still end up with differing opinions on what its message is. This leads me to believe that Bible is not divinely inspired, but written and invented by fallible men thus leading other fallible men to draw their own fallible interpretations from it.

Written by fallible men, yep. All men are. Inspired and guided, though not robotically dictated, by the divine.

Kinda destroys the value of a particular message if people only choose to believe some of it

I agree.

"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
-Saint Augustine

If god has truly sent us a divine message, and this represented by the bible then why do we see so many differing opinions on what the message actually is?

Because folks are different, infected with sin, interpret things differently, etc, etc, etc.

What evidence do you have that your Bible is the word of God/divinely inspired/the truth? (note: prophetic evidence must show the exact verse and prediction although these always end up being extremely vague. Anecdotal evidence such as personal experience is not valid, you cannot hope to convince any rational person of anything based on JUST YOUR personal experience. It may be a good enough reason for you to believe but not me.)

lol. Evidence! Evidence!

Just not the kind that has been observed by you in your personal life, because that doesn't count!! COLD HARD FACTS!!!

One cannot take a belief system that is based on personal revelation of Christ and then deny that there is any value to it. You are going to need to argue with the Christian faith as it is witnessed to in the prophets and the Gospel (hidden God/ parables/ wise cannot see when babes can in 1 Cor 2) AS THEY ARE GIVEN if you are to suppose you have presented a real challenge to them AS THEY ARE GIVEN, not to mention -if push comes to shove, the likes of St. Ephrem the Syrian, Barth, Torrance, Bloesch et al.

 

[salida]

Differently? How? The bible doesn't contradict itself.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

www.TheBibleProofBook.com, (you will need acrobat reader for this), read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell a former agnostic- (its overwhelming circumstantial evidence of bible) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster a former athiest/The Case for Christ and The Real Jesus by Lee Strobel a former athiest. www.equip.org (articles), http://www.gotquestions.org/,
http://christiananswers.net/

External evidence test of bible
http://www.knowwhatyoubelieve.com/believe/evidence/external_evidence_test.htm
http://www.reasonableanswers.org/12-Eyewitnesses-of-the-resurrection.html
http://www.ucg.org/bible/jesus-resurrection/
http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html
http://equip.org/articles/a-defense-of-sola-scriptura
http://equip.org/articles/bible-reliability

Internal Evidence (prophesies confirmed within bible)
Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Lukes time period 60-70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 - Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60 - 70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14 - Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60 - 70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of a dream of
Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20/and the fourth
great kingdom to follow- part iron and clay-which is the Roman Empire. During this empire Christ came and his church was established.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Historical Accuracy
The bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago and has not
been proven incorrect in any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament starts - at 25 years between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of Manuscript Copies-New Testament - 5,686/Homer - 643/Demosthenes - 200/
Plato - 7/Caesar -10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Consistency/Written by God
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years and has no internal inconsistencies.
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Timothy 3:16-17. No other religious book makes such claim.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
External Evidences (prophesies outside bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22
Tyre - Ezekiel 26:1-28
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bible before Science- He hangs the earth on nothing-Job 26:7/Earth is a sphere-Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight-Job 28:25/Gravity-Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33/Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6
(Job was written at least 1000 BC; some scholars think 3000 BC)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles
Archeological Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[Justsomedude]

.

 

[drich0150]

Everyone seems to be directly answering your question which is Good. I however want to address what you see as a contradiction that started the question to begin with.

What you see as contradiction, is infact an accurate representation of scripture from a specific point of view. What that means is that because we are all different and are at different spiritual levels of faith we will inevitably have different view points on the same subject. This is infact allowed and catered to in scripture. We have examples of Paul only teaching a strict doctrine that ties or binds certain new believers to the law because of what they already believe, when infact a couple books later He shows that a mature believer is not bound by that same principle.

It all goes back to what Christ said in Mt 16 and in 18 in that whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven.

what Christ is saying that you will have a very personal and tailored set of rules and law to live by.

Christianity is not Judaism or Muslim by it's faith, meaning we do not obtain righteousness by our deed or adherence to one understanding of a specific set of rules.

This is why Christianity is described as freedom so many times in scripture.

 

[Exial]

The bible says:
(snip)
In response to your question, I say the bible is true because it still works today. p.s. these things a quite common among the people I know.

All you have given me is your personal testimony that the Bible is true because it has affected people in your life. Personal testimony is rarely sufficient to establish truthfulness. A Muslim could give me the same argument about the Quran which would be just as valid as yours and would leave me with nothing.

It is also a logical fallacy to use the Bible to prove itself.

 

[Exial]

There is no objective proof for the existence of God.

I'm glad some Christians can accept this. Given there is no objective evidence, I cannot form a belief in god(s), much less the Christian god.

I do not consider using faith a valuable way of discovering truth as you can use it to justify belief in virtually anything which makes it useless IMO.

If you find evidence to support the assumption of a loving Creator, you will need to find it subjectively in your own life.

I have tried, but I try very hard not to believe something on my own subjective experience. Personal testimony is not sufficient to establish truth, not even to myself.

 

[Exial]

Even though this is true I think the Bible is inspired. I believe the men who wrote the Bible were inspired by God in their lives

Why? What reason do you use to think that the Biblical authors were divinely inspired by God?

 

[Exial]

In all honesty, I'll be the first to tell you that what your really looking for in terms of valid proof won't ever be found. No man has ever seen God because God is a Spirit, and we are carnal. God chooses to only respond to and by "Faith." God has given humanity proof of His existence through His son Jesus Christ.

I agree there is no objective evidence and that you have to take Christianity like all religions by faith.

Unfortunatly I have serious doubts about the validity of believing something purely by faith.

 

[Exial]

Written by fallible men, yep. All men are. Inspired and guided, though not robotically dictated, by the divine.

How do you know this to be true?

lol. Evidence! Evidence!

Just not the kind that has been observed by you in your personal life, because that doesn't count!! COLD HARD FACTS!!!

Of course it doesn't. If I wholeheartedly believed that Unicorns were real and I asserted this to you and my proof to you was that I had once met one and rode him around in a forest would you accept what I was saying was true? Or would you ask for evidence?

One cannot take a belief system that is based on personal revelation of Christ and then deny that there is any value to it. You are going to need to argue with the Christian faith

I have already stated my position on the value of "faith"

 

[Exial]

Differently? How? The bible doesn't contradict itself

It does make contradictory statements and their are a few events that have contradictory accounts. A notable example is the order of creation in the two accounts of genesis. A single example from the genesis contradictions is:

Genesis 1:25-27
(humans were created after other animals)

And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.


Genesis 2:18-19
(humans were created before other animals)

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

As I said, there are more but what would you call this if not a contradiction? If its not a contradiction then don't you have to accept that the Genesis account is not 100% accurate?

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
www.TheBibl
(snip)

This is a discussion forum, how could can I effectively discuss something with a copy/pasted article?

If you have a prophetic evidence then please abide by the conditions set in the OP, provide a verse, provide the prediction and the outcome. I'd much rather discuss these 1 at a time rather than 10 at a time.

 

[ForceofTime]

I do not consider using faith a valuable way of discovering truth as you can use it to justify belief in virtually anything which makes it useless IMO.

I have tried, but I try very hard not to believe something on my own subjective experience. Personal testimony is not sufficient to establish truth, not even to myself.

This reminds me of riding a bicycle for the first time.

 

[solarwave]

Why? What reason do you use to think that the Biblical authors were divinely inspired by God?

Its hard to say. Three years ago I would have given an answer based on logic and reason, but it is rather hard to prove God by reason, at most give a probability.

I would say it gives a good foundation for morality and has the potential to be something great if understood in a certain way (which most Christians don't, and nor do I fully). Also I don't know of a fully coherent understanding of what happened 2000 years ago other than Jesus rising from the dead.

 

[Exial]

Its hard to say. Three years ago I would have given an answer based on logic and reason, but it is rather hard to prove God by reason, at most give a probability.

So what is your answer based on now if not logic and reason?

Btw, proving god exists is very different from proving the bible is true, and I didn't ask for proof of god but of proof of the bible.

I would say it gives a good foundation for morality

I would flat out disagree but that is for another time and another place.

and has the potential to be something great if understood in a certain way (which most Christians don't, and nor do I fully). Also I don't know of a fully coherent understanding of what happened 2000 years ago other than Jesus rising from the dead.

How do you know this to be true?

I assume the bible, if so that leads us back to the same question, why do you believe the bible to be true?