Fundamental challenge

[Brieuse]

I cannot provide Scripture yet because I don't understand greek, but I trust Bill Bright and ChaliceThunder also recognizes that there are more than one definition for love in greek.

- Rob

I'm sure they are aware of the various forms of love.

Which is why they quoted the unconditional love required from Christians by God. Unconditional. Agape.

 

[Ohioprof]

Are you not a follower of Jesus?

Yes, which is why I included the teachings of Jesus as one of my sources of understanding.

The 4 Gospels in the Bible are not the only historical sources about Jesus. We now have rich other source materials in the Gnostic Gospels.

 

[Ohioprof]

sorry, I don't think you can separate the source of information from Jesus, and claim to follow him. Just my take on the matter.

In my opinion (and that is all it is, not some creedal standpoint you need condemn, you can be mad at just me) the religion you have chosen, is one that basically conforms, changes, and warps to fit whatever it is you want to do.

There are other sources of information about Jesus than the 4 Gospels in the Bible.

 

[Ohioprof]

I use to be like that: a person who believed they were Christian but didn't use the bible as my source of information. Ironic, wasn't it? In fact, I turned to world philosophies to explain who God was. I turned to New Age philosophies in an effort to find out who God really was. I got into astrology, out-of-body-experiences, reincarnation, psykic abilities, the whole works---even mediumship. I thank God I didn't get into witchcraft.

I was like you, seeking knowledge from every source, except the bible.

Ohioprof, if you don't rely on the Word of God and the Scriptures alone, your going to go spiritually hungry and if you don't hide the word within your heart, it will destroy you. You must worship in Spirit and Truth. You must walk according to the Spirit, in love, loving God and others unconditionally and have faith that God sent his only begotten Son to die for your sins and that Jesus came in the flesh and is the Son of God and focus on building a relationship with God.

Thank you for your concern, but I disagree with you. I do use the Bible as a source, but not as the word of God. I do not believe the Bible is the word of God. The Bible is an interesting historical source, written by fallible human beings. It must be read like any historical source and analyzed carefully and with critical thinking.

 

[Uphill Battle]

There are other sources of information about Jesus than the 4 Gospels in the Bible.

ah... I see.

so, you pick and choose what Christ "really" said.

 

[Ohioprof]

ah... I see.

so, you pick and choose what Christ "really" said.

No. I read the work of scholars who have tried to discern what Jesus actually said. The Jesus Seminar scholars have done great work in this area.

 

[Uphill Battle]

No. I read the work of scholars who have tried to discern what Jesus actually said. The Jesus Seminar scholars have done great work in this area.

ah, yes, the Jesus Seminars. Modern day scholars telling us what Jesus did or did not do, or said or did not say.

you buy that stuff?

 

[Ohioprof]

ah, yes, the Jesus Seminars. Modern day scholars telling us what Jesus did or did not do, or said or did not say.

you buy that stuff?

Yes. Their research is thorough. They don't know for certain all of what Jesus said or did not say, because we don't have the sources to provide a complete picture. But they do a careful and thorough job of analyzing the sources that we do have.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Weak. Using a historical record of someone to ascertain your beliefs about someone is not worshiping the book. That's a red herring that's been out in the sun too long, the smell is pretty thick.

You talk about a “historical record” yet in the remainder of your post you claim it is something different

horse droppings.

Such a witty and well reasoned response. I can see I am dealing with a seasoned and experienced debater.
/sarcasm off

There is much in the bible that if I were to look for my own way on the matter, I would "interpret differently." God has laid some groundwork that my selfish self would prefer he didn't. I don't pretend that the text doesn't say what it doesn't say, or ignore what it DOES say, in favor of doing whatever my corrupt little heart desires.

do you shave?
Murder rape victims?
Wear a wedding ring?
Refuse to let people with glasses enter your church?

Or are these things your “corrupt” heart prefers to ignore?

Or is the religion you have chosen, is one that basically conforms, changes, and warps to fit whatever it is you want to do?

All of this is irrelevant though... if your religion doesn't ascribe to the bible, your interpretation of it is moot.

Leaving aside the issues of interpretation and personalization…

As noted not a historical record but an object to worship.

BTW, you sport a Catholic Icon, you DO know what your church teaches on the matter, hmm?

My church teaches that lying, even lying about homosexuality, is a sin

My church also teaches that you shouldn’t put a book before God

 

[BigBadWlf]

There is more than one greek word for love.
According to Bill Bright's book, "The Secret,"




Love
p.86-88 Chapter Seven


"Is there someone at work, or in your church or neighborhood, whom you have trouble loving?

Our Lord Jesus gave love the highest priority. "I am giving you a new commandment to you now --- love each other as much as I love you," He instructed the disciples in John 13:34. The apostle Paul carried on the Master's teaching by writing, "For the whole Law can be summed up in this one command: 'Love others as you love yourself'" (Galatians 5:14)

In the time of Jesus and Paul, there were three Greek words which we now translate into our English word "love:" Eros, phileo, and agape.

Eros suggests sensual titillation; it conveys the idea that "I love you because you excite my sexual desires." We get our modern term erotic from this Greek word.

Phileo is used to depict the love between friends or relatives. It suggests that "I love you because our friendship or family ties make you deserve to be loved."

Agape is God's supernatural, unconditional love ---the love He showed an undeserving world when He sent his Son to die on the cross for our sins. Agape is love because of the inner character of the person who is doing the loving, rather than because the object of that devotion is worthy. It is often "in spite of" rather than love "because." Agape says, "I love you unconditionally---in spite of your sin or your attitude, or regardless of whether you love me."

None of which is supporting what you are claiming

 

[BigBadWlf]

So according to your "ex" theory, an ex-wife or ex-husband was never really married because you obviously think no one can be an ex anything.

Does this relate to anything?

I do believe no matter what I say i will never convince the OP because they choose not to be. They posted a question and refuse the answer or explanations.

what you have said is that you are not a heterosexual. And I believe you

Again and again the quote about my dreams appear but never my explanation of them. THEY ARE A SPIRITUAL ATTACK.

Please say you don’t really believe homosexuality is cause by being posses by evil spirits

So to be clear: I WILL NEVER AGAIN ENTER INTO A HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONSHIP.

That’s nice. But it has nothing to do with your sexual orientation

EVEN IF I WERE TO DIVORCE OR BECOME A WIDOW. I WILL NEVER AGAIN HAVE A HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONSHIP. I WILL ONLY DATE AND REMARRY A MAN.

I’m sure no one cares. And again it has nothing to do with your sexual orientation

CHRIST CHANGED MY LIFE.

Just not your sexual orientation

God bless you all. Anymore questions or statements can be PM to me.

you never answered my original questions:

“You indicate you are not now a heterosexual

Are you claiming you were a homosexual?


And what in the world does clothing have to do with sexual orientation? http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=40715736&postcount=37

 

[BigBadWlf]

I don't understand greek language at the moment and I can't read directly from a greek bible except from a lexicon, but I believe that God distinguishes between kinds of love that are moral and immoral. For example, love for money is a sin. One cannot idolize wealth and God at the same time.

I am someone who believes that God wants us to love others unconditionally in agape, which is in my current beliefs, something that is far from being sexual. For example,

If my friend Amy Chow even if she hates me, that is agape.
If I love my brother Dan even if he hates me, that is agape.
If I love Amy Chow, who is my girlfriend, even if she wants to divorce me, (I will mourn and be sad), that would still be agape.
If I love Amy Chow even if she is my girlfriend and I have sexual relations, because of the fact that I love her unconditionally no matter what she does, this is agape.

So, it doesn't matter is Amy Chow is my friend, my girlfriend, friend, enemy, or even a relative, what matters is that I love her unconditionally regardless. This is why I believe a lot of us confuse agape with eros and phileo. This is a new conclusion I have come to believe in since last week and the last few days.

Honestly, I lack agape. At times people upset me and I feel like I don't want to forgive them and at times I forgive people but don't love people unconditionally like I should. Most of the time, I tend to mistake agape with phileo. Go figure.

But certainly, if I love my girlfriend because of sexuality and because of her attractiveness, and anything along the lines of physical appeal and something she does for me or a quality I like about her, I do not believe this is agape.

So the answer is no you cannot provide scriptural support for your claims.

 

[BigBadWlf]

ah... I see.

so, you pick and choose what Christ "really" said.

*holds up a mirror*

 

[Uphill Battle]

*holds up a mirror*

cute.

worthless.

 

[Uphill Battle]

You talk about a “historical record” yet in the remainder of your post you claim it is something different

pardon?

Such a witty and well reasoned response. I can see I am dealing with a seasoned and experienced debater.
/sarcasm off

hey, if it looks like horse droppings, and smells like horse droppings....

do you shave?
Murder rape victims?
Wear a wedding ring?
Refuse to let people with glasses enter your church?

Or are these things your “corrupt” heart prefers to ignore?

Or is the religion you have chosen, is one that basically conforms, changes, and warps to fit whatever it is you want to do?

your list makes little sense.

no, my religion does not warp to my preferences. If I am to believe Christ, then I am forced to come to grips with some of my preferences being sinful. what wearing a wedding ring has to do with it is beyond me. Perhaps your genius escapes me.

Leaving aside the issues of interpretation and personalization…

As noted not a historical record but an object to worship.

again, horse droppings. if you keep dropping them, I'll be forced to point them out.

My church teaches that lying, even lying about homosexuality, is a sin

My church also teaches that you shouldn’t put a book before God

uh huh. I notice you didn't write what they teach about homosexuality.

 

[Ohioprof]

pardon?



hey, if it looks like horse droppings, and smells like horse droppings....



your list makes little sense.

no, my religion does not warp to my preferences. If I am to believe Christ, then I am forced to come to grips with some of my preferences being sinful. what wearing a wedding ring has to do with it is beyond me. Perhaps your genius escapes me.






again, horse droppings. if you keep dropping them, I'll be forced to point them out.




uh huh. I notice you didn't write what they teach about homosexuality.

My church is a Welcoming Congregation. We welcome gay people as we are. We recognize same-sex marriages, and our minister performs same-sex unions. Our minister is gay.

Our wider church association stands in favor of same-sex marriage.

 

[Uphill Battle]

My church is a Welcoming Congregation. We welcome gay people as we are. We recognize same-sex marriages, and our minister performs same-sex unions. Our minister is gay.

Our wider church association stands in favor of same-sex marriage.

in this instance, I was asking the Catholic.

 

[Ohioprof]

in this instance, I was asking the Catholic.

I know. I answered your question anyway, about my church.

 

[BigBadWlf]

cute.

worthless.

Just because you cannot formulate an actual response is no reason be nasty

 

[Uphill Battle]

Just because you cannot formulate an actual response is no reason be nasty

I already answered that accusation.

btw, notice you haven't answered my question.