Full Preterists - Mt 24:21

[GodsWatchman]

Mt 24:21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.

I gotta hear from ya. What dost thou say about this?

 

[seebs]

My understanding is that the preterists are, under current rules, not allowed to post in this forum; you'd have to ask in Unorthodox Theological Doctrines. If this is correct, perhaps a mod could move the thread?

 

[GodsWatchman]

My understanding is that the preterists are, under current rules, not allowed to post in this forum; you'd have to ask in Unorthodox Theological Doctrines. If this is correct, perhaps a mod could move the thread?

I saw that "rule" in the Eschatological ?? Section posted as the first 2 messages - I did not see such 2 messages on this forum. I hope not. I hope they can post here.

 

[parousia70]

To my knowledge, We Full Preterists can post anywhere on CF that we choose, but we can only espouse views that are EXCLUSIVE to Full Preterism here in the Unorthodox theology section.

As to the thread topic:

AD 66-70 was the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thess 5:2-4,23; Phil 1:6,10; Heb 10:25,36-39; 1 Cor 1:7-8; 1 Cor 5:5). Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated. There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God (Matt 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24).
In addition, we should not overlook the common Old Testament figure of speech Jesus is utilizing in Matthew 24:21: "ever was/nor ever shall be." Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matt. 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future. Therefore, we recognize that the expression "ever was/nor ever shall be" is a common Hebraic idiom meaning "very great" or "very much." Our Lord was simply saying in Matthew 24:21 that there would be very great tribulation. St. Luke's account of this great tribulation reads as follows:

These are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (Luke 21:22-23)​

Without question, Jesus promised his apostles that they would live to see Israel's great tribulation ("great distress in the land and wrath upon this people") and all those things come to pass in their generation (Matt 24:33-34; Luke 21:31-32).

 

[GodsWatchman]

Thank you parousia70 - you have prooven to be very insightful in the Word. Anyone else?

I can be a Full Preterist and still have my "7th day" ->Sabbath coming after the final FULLfillment of Revelations is unfolded. I see all as "parables/instructions/prophecies" of our day today. I was just curious how the prets got around the "ever will be" thing

God Bless - You will be forced into the Wilderness hardcore soon bro ...

 

[parousia70]

Thank you parousia70 - you have prooven to be very insightful in the Word.

Cool GW. (that was weird! I have a hard time calling you GW, I'm sure some of our readers will know why)
Is there abything in particular about my reply that you disagree with?

I can be a Full Preterist and still have my "7th day" ->Sabbath coming after the final FULLfillment of Revelations is unfolded.

Then your position would be oxymoronic.

I see all as "parables/instructions/prophecies" of our day today.

Where does the Bible teach you this?
Does the Bible teach you this?

I was just curious how the prets got around the "ever will be" thing

We don't "get around it", we accept it at it's Biblical face value, letting the Bible itself govern our interpratation.

God Bless - You will be forced into the Wilderness hardcore soon bro ...

What do you mean by "Soon"?

 

[Ephron]

Israel had crucified the Lord and publicly called God's judgement down on themselves: "And all the people answered and said, `His blood be on us and on our children.'" (Matthew 27:25). God's judgement on Israel in 70 AD matched their crime, the crucifixion of Christ. This crime was the worst in history, so their punishment was also the worst in history. To call anything else "the great tribulation"is to downplay the immensity of that generation's crime.

The destruction of Jerusalem was far more than just the destruction of a city. Jerusalem and the temple were the center of worship of the one and only true and living God. With its destruction came a covenantal change. God's kingdom was taken from them, and no longer would Gentiles rule over God's kingdom because His Kingdom was now a spiritual kingdom, entered not by a physical birth but by a spiritual birth. The old heavens and earth of Judaism were destroyed the new heavens and earth of Spiritual Israel were established. It signaled the end of the age. God had utterly destroyed the physical temple, the genealogical records which qualified descendants of Aaron to serve as priests, and the city of Jerusalem. The old system of worship was forever over.

The destruction of Jerusalem was not simply a local judgement, it was a covenantal judgement. Notice Jesus' words:

Matthew 23:35-36 (NKJV) "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

This judgement upon Jerusalem was not simply local, it reached all the way back to Able. The blood of Able was vindicated by God's judgement upon Jerusalem.

It was far more than the fall of a city, it was the end of an age. That is why Jesus said it would be a, "great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."

posted from website of David Curtis at bereanbiblechurch.org

Peace
Ephron

 

[parousia70]

Curtis is Spot on!

Due to the COVENENTAL SIGNIFICANCE of the events of AD66-70, Israels GREAT TRIBULATION can never be repeated, equalled or surpassed.

 

[Ephron]

Hey Parousia70! Good job on always tying in the Old Testament language and how the first century jews would have understood that language as opposed to modern day interpretations.

God Bless
Ephron

 

[GodsWatchman]

In order for all to FULLFILLED in entirety - ALL Israel must go through the same things. Yes - Literal Israel went through all this. Now God will finish it with Spiritual Israel and all these things will come to pass with her. You guys only have 1/2 right. And you only spiritualize the portions you need to complete you fullfillments for literal Israel. I'm glad you at least get 1/2 right. Most don't even get that right. *BUT* - HOP out of your flesh coats for a while and *see* the Word of God to be fullfilled for the rest of Israel.

Cool GW. (that was weird! I have a hard time calling you GW, I'm sure some of our readers will know why)

Why is that?

Is there abything in particular about my reply that you disagree with?

Not really - from your point of view this has to be so. From my point of view it *was* so and *will be so* again.

What do you mean by "Soon"?

Ex 16:26 Six days shall ye gather it; but on the seventh day is sabbath: on it there shall be none.

We will obey the Law of God as it is eternal. Mans works are to come to an end as the 6 days are almost over. Tell me things aren't being moved into a global positioning right now very rapidly. Soon you will be forced to make a choice : Flesh in Egypt or Manna in the Wilderness.

 

[stauron]

Here is the post I had about this. Some of this has already been said, but I still like what I said


Taking off our theological blinders for a moment, what would a Jew's opinion of the events in the first century have been? Take for instance Simeon (Luke 2) and contrast his views with those of a Jew that lived till the end of the 1st century. Simeon saw "a light for glory to...Israel" The Jews (edited to say: not all Jews, and not necessarily Simeon, but the Sanhedren and the like) expected the Messiah to free them and exhalt them. Then, after all that pregnant expectation, there was an ash heap that marked the spot.

For them the world had ended. Biblical language is full of common idiom and hyperbole. The so-called golden rule of interpretation

(Golden Rule of Interpretation: When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate text, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, clearly indicate otherwise.)

lets us down here. We have to see these within the time/culture settings of the writer. A much better hermeneutic is grammatico-historical. We look at the words/phrases/epistles in the lingua franca of the writer's day and then begin to formulate our ideas.

Therefore when we look at the time context and the covenental context (collectively known as the redemptive-historical setting) we begin to appreciate the impact that the fall of Jerusalem had on the world of the day and why the days were like none since and never shall be.

God divorced His covenant people, wrote Ichabod over them, judged them for their faithlessness and slew them. It is unrepeatable. God disowned the rebels and gave the kingdom to another. Those were the days of vengeance where God poured out His wrath and brought to a close the Old Covenant. He also brought to fruition all the promises to the (faithful, Jewish) fathers. The divinly appointed means of worship, the "holy" city and the "holy" people were all cast down and found disfavor with God. How is that not earthshaking? We take our status in Christ for granted and fail to realize what has taken place on our behalf when we think it no small thing that branches were broken off for us.

And finally the justification (not sin-wise) and vindication of Christ and His body was brought to fruition when that which offended was finally removed. The major and near fatal stumbling block (the white-washed sepulchars, the synagogue of satan, the anti(against)-christs) to the church were parading around with little opposition and killing Christians, with zeal, and the whole while claiming to do it in God's name, as demanded from His Law.

So it is not that hard to begin to see the true impact on the world and how to logically fit in the New Heavens and Earth.

 

[stauron]

In order for all to FULLFILLED in entirety - ALL Israel must go through the same things. Yes - Literal Israel went through all this. Now God will finish it with Spiritual Israel and all these things will come to pass with her. You guys only have 1/2 right. And you only spiritualize the portions you need to complete you fullfillments for literal Israel. I'm glad you at least get 1/2 right. Most don't even get that right. *BUT* - HOP out of your flesh coats for a while and *see* the Word of God to be fullfilled for the rest of Israel.

Can you give us a few verses to show what you mean? You seem to want a many layered view of scripture that is somewhat mystical.

Where do you get your hermeneutic?

How do you define fulfillment?

How do you define Israel?

 

[Ephron]

We will obey the Law of God as it is eternal. Mans works are to come to an end as the 6 days are almost over.

Where biblically does it state this about mans works coming to an end after 6 days? And why are the 6 days almost over?

Ephron

 

[Justme]

Hi G/watchman,...I know the real GW too.
Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

I will never understand why we would have to discuss two occurances of a biblical sentence which includes..." such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

For most of the us when a verse says..it hasn't happened before and it won't happen again ...that sews it up for us...however, not so much surprises me anymore.

P70 and Stauron pretty well painted the picture of the tribulation so I will deal more with your suggestion of this happening again.

The sequence of events of the olivet Discouse places the flight of the people to avoid just before the great tribulation and that flight of the people is prompted by some abomination appearing in the Holy Place.

The Holy Place is described here:

Hebrews 9
2A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand, the table and the consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place.

That Holy Place was desrtroyed in 70 AD.

When the people saw this abomination they were to flee from Judea.

Catholic Encyclopedia.......,

...... it returned to the procurators until [size=-2]A. D.[/size] 66; and in [size=-2]A. D.[/size] 70 Judea disappeared as an individual district.


John writes in his final Book.......
Rev 2
24Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you): 25Only hold on to what you have until I come.

Notice the 'hold on til I come' part???

So now we have a abomination coming to appear in a Holy Place that no longer exists in a district that no longer exists and all this takes place sometime around the time Jesus Himself 'comes' to Thyatira which no longer exists at all and the new settlement, as far as I know, contains zero christians...........

Yea, I think you have a iron clad case, but then that's,

Justme

 

[parousia70]

In order for all to FULLFILLED in entirety - ALL Israel must go through the same things. Yes - Literal Israel went through all this. Now God will finish it with Spiritual Israel and all these things will come to pass with her.

OK, and you base this on which scripture(s) exactly?

Why is that?

GW is the CF Screenname of another fellow Full Pret.

Not really - from your point of view this has to be so. From my point of view it *was* so and *will be so* again.

I'm only concerned with the "biblical" point of view.

Can you demonstrate from scripture this *was* and *will be again* notion of yours?

Ex 16:26 Six days shall ye gather it; but on the seventh day is sabbath: on it there shall be none.

We will obey the Law of God as it is eternal. Mans works are to come to an end as the 6 days are almost over. Tell me things aren't being moved into a global positioning right now very rapidly. Soon you will be forced to make a choice : Flesh in Egypt or Manna in the Wilderness.

I'm sorry, perhaps you misunderstood my question.

I wanted to know how you define "soon".

1 year,
10 years,
50 years,
500 years,
2000 years?

Just give me a ballpark like, "at least 1 year but not more than 50"

Can you do that?

 

[mrversatile48]

Many Bible prophecies have had foreshadowing fulfilments, given as warnings of the full fulfilment to come; the 70AD fal of Jerusalem is 1 of them, & Jesus' disciples asked Him @ signs of the end of the age & His return approaching, when He foretold the multiplying , intensifying birthpains of natural, social & spiritual disasters that we see all around us now

Use site search to find my lyric, "Before Our Eyes"

We now see the scene set for the fulfilment of Revelation 6:8 - where the notorious 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse have power to take peace from Earth & kill 25% of mankind by war, famine, pestilence & wild beasts of the earth

25% of world population is over 1.5 billion: the whole world population in the 1st Century was less than 200 million - which shows John's faith in erecording Revelation 16 prophecy of 200 million troops invading Israel, via a dried-up R Euphrates, to trigger Armageddon

In 1961, Chairman Mao boasted that China alone could field 200 million militiamen at the drop of a hat

China now has @ 1.25 billion people & a high percentage are young men of military age

We also clearly see the stage set for Rev 9:13/18 prophecy of 33% of mankind to die in war begun at R Euphrates, as well as waters being poisoned, vegetation scorched, strange sores on men's bodies - & the precise plagues of Zechariah 14:12 are what happens in thermonuclear holocaust, per Pentagon generals

Hal Lindsey was invited to tell them about Bible endtime prophecies just after they'd done computer projections of likely events

The generals were astounded at the degree of similarity

Praise God for the instant airlift rescue of all who love Jesus, before the worst time on Earth - Matthew 24:30.31, 1 Corinthians 15:51/58, 1 Thessalonians 4:14/5:9, etc

Research archives on http://www.prophezine.com

 

[stauron]

Many Bible prophecies have had foreshadowing fulfilments, given as warnings of the full fulfilment to come; the 70AD fal of Jerusalem is 1 of them, & Jesus' disciples asked Him @ signs of the end of the age & His return approaching, when He foretold the multiplying , intensifying birthpains of natural, social & spiritual disasters that we see all around us now

Use site search to find my lyric, "Before Our Eyes"

We now see the scene set for the fulfilment of Revelation 6:8 - where the notorious 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse have power to take peace from Earth & kill 25% of mankind by war, famine, pestilence & wild beasts of the earth

25% of world population is over 1.5 billion: the whole world population in the 1st Century was less than 200 million - which shows John's faith in erecording Revelation 16 prophecy of 200 million troops invading Israel, via a dried-up R Euphrates, to trigger Armageddon

In 1961, Chairman Mao boasted that China alone could field 200 million militiamen at the drop of a hat

China now has @ 1.25 billion people & a high percentage are young men of military age

We also clearly see the stage set for Rev 9:13/18 prophecy of 33% of mankind to die in war begun at R Euphrates, as well as waters being poisoned, vegetation scorched, strange sores on men's bodies - & the precise plagues of Zechariah 14:12 are what happens in thermonuclear holocaust, per Pentagon generals

Hal Lindsey was invited to tell them about Bible endtime prophecies just after they'd done computer projections of likely events

The generals were astounded at the degree of similarity

Praise God for the instant airlift rescue of all who love Jesus, before the worst time on Earth - Matthew 24:30.31, 1 Corinthians 15:51/58, 1 Thessalonians 4:14/5:9, etc

Research archives on http://www.prophezine.com

You make some big assumptions about "seeing" things.

The disciples "saw" those same things. How do you know they were wrong and you are right?

Why would Jesus Prophesy about a shadow? Shadows are never predicted. Prophets look back on events and call them shadows. A prophecy is a forward look to an event that is a fulfillment.

The newpaper is not a substitute for good exegesis with a sound hermeneutic.

How could you ever decide that a false prophet was a false prophet? He could just say "well yeah that was a forshadow, the real one is coming later"

You could get away with anything that way. Oh, wait a minute that already happens **88 reasons Jesus will return in 1988**

 

[Justme]

Mrversatile48,

Many Bible prophecies have had foreshadowing fulfilments, given as warnings of the full fulfilment to come; the 70AD fal of Jerusalem is 1 of them

Let's solve this mathimatically.

If there is one great tribulation tommorrow, how many could there have been in the past?.......none.

Justme

 

[GodsWatchman]

Sorry it took so long to reply - buzy makin' bricks for Pharoah

OK, and you base this on which scripture(s) exactly?

Can you demonstrate from scripture this *was* and *will be again* notion of yours?

Ec 1:9 That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever.

Israel goes apostate - Gods sends Israel into captivity using a Beast system until Israel repents - Then God Saves them by slaying the Beast. It is THE story of Israel and History will repeat itself one final time. The Church (Israel) is going into captivity with the final Beast system.

1Co 2:6 We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought: but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory: which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory: but as it is written, Things which eye saw not, and ear heard not, And which entered not into the heart of man, Whatsoever things God prepared for them that love him. But unto us God revealed them through the Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For who among men knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of the man, which is in him? even so the things of God none knoweth, save the Spirit of God. But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual words. Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Heb 5:13 For every one that partakes of milk [is] unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe;

Pr 30:33 Surely the churning of milk bringeth forth butter, and the wringing of the nose bringeth forth blood: so the forcing of wrath bringeth forth strife.

Time to get off the 'milk' guys - Full Preterism is pure milk and zero meat.

Ro 4:16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were.

I wanted to know how you define "soon".

2Pe 3:8 But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Ex 20:9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore Jehovah blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Ge 1:27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.... And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Its been ~about~ 6,000 years that man has labored. Those that have obeyed the commandment will Sabbath.

If you are not able then it is not for you.

--------------------------------------------------------

God has NEVER left His people without prophecy. To close the book on God is to intentionally "shut the eyes".

 

[stauron]

I think you left out an important part of the context:

Ecclesiates
1:8 All this monotony is tiresome; no one can bear to describe it:

The eye is never satisfied with seeing, nor is the ear ever content with hearing.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Its been ~about~ 6,000 years that man has labored. Those that have obeyed the commandment will Sabbath.

If you are not able then it is not for you.

--------------------------------------------------------

God has NEVER left His people without prophecy. To close the book on God is to intentionally "shut the eyes".

Those that are in Christ are Sabbathing now. That is the whole point of Hebrews 2 and 3. There was a rest, but the new rest is called Today. All days are equally holy for those in Christ. Today is the day, and Paul said so too.

The point of prophecy was Christ and His work. We now have Christ in full, no need for the shadow any longer. No need for idle speculation

~about~

anything. Prophecy was much more exact than that.