Full Preterists - Mt 24:21

[parousia70]

2Pe 3:8 But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

OK, You have just proven God is timeless. Good Job, although I fail to see your point in doing so, especially in realtion to your personal definition of "Soon".

Its been ~about~ 6,000 years that man has labored. Those that have obeyed the commandment will Sabbath.

About?
so to you soon = about?

Again, you have not done anything to tell me what youy mean by SOON. (or about)

I thought since you used the term you knew what you meant by it.

I'm beginning to think you yourself don't even know that you mean by soon.

 

[parousia70]

Ec 1:9 That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

So there can be no terminus?

Is Calvary a mere shadow of some future greater sacrifice and redemption from sin?

Israel goes apostate - Gods sends Israel into captivity using a Beast system until Israel repents - Then God Saves them by slaying the Beast. It is THE story of Israel and History will repeat itself one final time. The Church (Israel) is going into captivity with the final Beast system.

Now we are getting somewhere!

Where does the Bible teach you this "one final time" notion?, and where does it teach you that this "one final time" is future to us?

 

[GodsWatchman]

Is Calvary a mere shadow of some future greater sacrifice and redemption from sin?

Yes - as a matter of fact - The Church must face the cross. As you know we all must "take up our cross" - For the end of age of faith is for the corporate Church to take up its cross.

Where does the Bible teach you this "one final time" notion?, and where does it teach you that this "one final time" is future to us?

Is actually in your name! That Parousia has *not* happened as you claim. What has happened is - erchomai in us. Parousia is his coming in personage.

I just did a study on that word - after reading from a 'pret' sight and caught them mixing the two words together. The site I read from was claiming

Mt 16:28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

...is the Parousia. No- it is not. That is the erchomai in us. That is Christ in US.

 

[Justme]

Hi G/watchman,


I wonder if you could explain how the abomination will appear in the Holy Place that no longer exists in the district that no longer exists and how Jesus is going to erchomai to Thyatria which no longer exists.

If you really want to explain 'parousia ' for the word come/presense you can start with 1 Thess 4:15, it's used there. Maybe explain the present tense Paul uses for who would possibly be alive at that parousia , too.

Justme

 

[GodsWatchman]

Hi G/watchman,


I wonder if you could explain how the abomination will appear in the Holy Place that no longer exists in the district that no longer exists and how Jesus is going to erchomai to Thyatria which no longer exists.

If you really want to explain 'parousia ' for the word come/presense you can start with 1 Thess 4:15, it's used there. Maybe explain the present tense Paul uses for who would possibly be alive at that parousia , too.

Justme

Oh please - So I presume then, that you attribute the LETTER this writing? And so that Thyatria doesn't exist today? I'll tell you now - all seven churches exist RIGHT NOW - which one are you in?

Was our Lord Crucified in Egypt? In Sodom?
Re 11:8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

The Letter Kills my friend -


And one more thing - the Holy Place is the Temple of God - is that not now in the temple made without hands? Is that not now His Church? Is the abomination not going to happen in His Church. It is you who says the Holy Place doesn't exist - the Word says quite differently.

 

[stauron]

Oh please - So I presume then, that you attribute the LETTER this writing? And so that Thyatria doesn't exist today? I'll tell you now - all seven churches exist RIGHT NOW - which one are you in?

Was our Lord Crucified in Egypt? In Sodom?
Re 11:8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

The Letter Kills my friend -


And one more thing - the Holy Place is the Temple of God - is that not now in the temple made without hands? Is that not now His Church? Is the abomination not going to happen in His Church. It is you who says the Holy Place doesn't exist - the Word says quite differently.

So let's see, your view of scripture is a-historical.

The city where Jesus was crucified, the great city was clearly Jerusalem.

Just for the record, what is the purpose of context?

The letter that kills was that which was written on tablets of stone.

What was the age that was ending in the first century and what age are we in now?

 

[Justme]

Hi G/watchman,

The questions I asked are rather new aren't they? The answer hasn't been spun and polished yet.

Anyway....

And one more thing - the Holy Place is the Temple of God - is that not now in the temple made without hands? Is that not now His Church? Is the abomination not going to happen in His Church. It is you who says the Holy Place doesn't exist - the Word says quite differently.

Is the holy place now not in the temple made without hands? Why, I would think so. No, it is not the 'church.' So how would an abomination get into Heaven today...and if it did how would the mortals from non-existant Judea SEE it?
AND if they did SEE it what would they flee from? Where are the mountains that would protect them?

If you want to tell me the abomination is going to be in the 'church' just show me the scripture that proves that at the same time.

Thanks


Justme

 

[parousia70]

.....Still waiting for GodsWatchman's definition of "soon".....

 

[parousia70]

Yes - as a matter of fact - The Church must face the cross. As you know we all must "take up our cross" - For the end of age of faith is for the corporate Church to take up its cross.

Just so I'm clear, are you saying Christ's sacrifice on the cross is not entirely sufficiant for all time?

OH, BTW, where does scripture teach about the "end of the age of faith".

I have never seen that before.

 

[parousia70]

Is actually in your name! That Parousia has *not* happened as you claim. What has happened is - erchomai in us. Parousia is his coming in personage.

I just did a study on that word - after reading from a 'pret' sight and caught them mixing the two words together. The site I read from was claiming

Mt 16:28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

...is the Parousia. No- it is not. That is the erchomai in us. That is Christ in US.

Scripture cements the parousia to the 1st century.

 

[GodsWatchman]

Scripture cements the parousia to the 1st century.

Clearly one of us is completely wrong. I'll except my failings and humbly toss away all my current beliefs if I find myself to be in error on this Preterist view. I *DO* accept a great deal of what you have to say - this is why I am having this discourse with you now.

I would hope the converse to be true for you - that if I can show you to be wrong, that you will humbly put yourself before the Cross and repent as well.

Deal?

.... as to the answers for your counter-questions - I will attempt to answer them with study and prayer. Right now...I'm working (for Pharoah), and my wkend is pretty tied up. So it may be a few days b4 I get back with solid answers.

Lets keep this discourse open and not allow each others 'snide remarks (I'm guilty too ) to chase either of us away.

In God in Truth and Love
GodsWatchman (the real one )

 

[GodsWatchman]

Scripture cements the parousia to the 1st century.

What do Full Preterists believe for Salvation?
1) Once saved always saved?
2) One can loose salvation?
3) Salvation comes by faith? Faith + works? Knowledge?

What do Full Preterists believe is in store for the earth (dirt) ? 10,000 more years of today?

What of the bizarre fact that within the last 75 years - mans knowledge suddenly jumped on a hyperbolic curve up? that is ... the very apparent fullfillment TODAY (the last 75 years or so) of this:
Da 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

What do you say is "the strong delusion", or "working of error"?

When do you believe the Book of Revelations to be written and how old was John when he wrote it?

Oh - and one more important thought. Since you've "closed" the book of Revelations, being that it is completely fullfilled, I presume you must have a COMPLETE POINT BY POINT, VERSE BY VERSE explanation for ENTIRE parable? That would be quite the thing to see indeed! On that note - I would presume that all the parables are "loosed" to you also?

 

[parousia70]

Clearly one of us is completely wrong. I'll except my failings and humbly toss away all my current beliefs if I find myself to be in error on this Preterist view. I *DO* accept a great deal of what you have to say - this is why I am having this discourse with you now.

I would hope the converse to be true for you - that if I can show you to be wrong, that you will humbly put yourself before the Cross and repent as well.

Deal?

First, Give me your definition of "soon". Then you have a deal.

 

[stauron]

What do Full Preterists believe for Salvation?
1) Once saved always saved?
2) One can loose salvation?
3) Salvation comes by faith? Faith + works? Knowledge?

Variety of opinions, just like any Christians, but I am convinced that the Scriptures teach that God saves by His sovereign choice. Those He saves believe and bear fruit.

What do Full Preterists believe is in store for the earth (dirt) ? 10,000 more years of today?

Again a wide range and for me the jury is out on this one.

What of the bizarre fact that within the last 75 years - mans knowledge suddenly jumped on a hyperbolic curve up? that is ... the very apparent fullfillment TODAY (the last 75 years or so) of this:
Da 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Except for the small matter of context. What is the time of the end? The end of WHAT? Knowledge about what or Who? It doesn't seem to matter to you, but I know that God is not a God of confusion, and is not trying to confuse us in His revelation. Your interpretations do not come from sound or consistent hermeneutics.

What do you say is "the strong delusion", or "working of error"?

The Jews that thought they were doing God's bidding by zealously persecuting and killing the church. Those Jews were called adulterers, the Harlot, the synagogue of satan, children of the devil and antichrists. They thought they were God's people but believed a lie.

When do you believe the Book of Revelations to be written and how old was John when he wrote it?

Well since it was written as a warning of the impending judgement, because God always warned Israel before he judged them, it was written sometime before the seige, the early to the mid 60s. Not sure on John's age.

Oh - and one more important thought. Since you've "closed" the book of Revelations, being that it is completely fullfilled, I presume you must have a COMPLETE POINT BY POINT, VERSE BY VERSE explanation for ENTIRE parable? That would be quite the thing to see indeed! On that note - I would presume that all the parables are "loosed" to you also?

Well, I am not sure that I catch all your inuendo (nothing new there though) nor even the point of your question. I do think that calling Revelation a parable is starting out on the wrong foot.

 

[GW]

Hi everyone. Just checking in to say hello. Haven't been able to post much, but I do lurk from time to time.

Keep up the great work, fellow prets.

With you in the victory of Christ and the Church,

GW

 

[Justme]

Hey GW,


Good to hear from you.

This thread Parousia70 has going here should be a dandy...as long as G/watch ever makes the first page!!!

Take care,

Justme

 

[stauron]

Hi everyone. Just checking in to say hello. Haven't been able to post much, but I do lurk from time to time.

Keep up the great work, fellow prets.

With you in the victory of Christ and the Church,

GW

Hello!

Always good to hear (see) from you!

Drop by again...

stauron

 

[Justme]

Hi group,

G/watch was to be tied up for a few days I think, so I just wanted to move this up so he didn't miss it.

Justme

 

[parousia70]

Alright, while I continue to wait patiently for G/Watchman's definition of "Soon", as a courtesey, and a gesture toward continuing our ongoing discussion, even though, as usual, there is not really anything to add to Saturon's comments, I'll go ahead and address G/Watchman's latest querries,:

What do Full Preterists believe for Salvation?

1) Once saved always saved?
2) One can loose salvation?
3) Salvation comes by faith? Faith + works? Knowledge?

Full preterists believe exactly the same things as futurists about the issue of salvation.

What do Full Preterists believe is in store for the earth (dirt) ? 10,000 more years of today?

Like Stauron, I can only speak about what THIS Full Preterist believes in in store for the earth 10,000 years from now.

In view of the fact that God said His creation is "very good," and remembering that God promised to never again curse the ground or destroy mankind as He did in Noah's day, we cannot possibly expect that God will bring a cataclysmic judgment to end the generations of mankind. It should further come as no surprise to find that the Scriptures tell us that the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21).

This Preterist does not know future events, but I am fully confident in the fact that whatever the conquering Savior pleases to do, He does, on earth as in heaven (Ps. 135:6). And when we consider the divine eternality of the Church on earth and her progressive divine dominion, we know that her future, and hence the future of humanity, will be filled to overflowing with innumerable blessings which are even now utterly impossible for us to grasp. For what wonders will God work in and through His more-than-conquering Church after 10,000 years of ecclesiastical progress, or after 1,000,000 years of victory? Only God can know (Eccl. 3:11). What we do know is that in Christ Jesus our Creator and our Redeemer, the future of mankind on earth under His dominion will surely be "exceeding abundantly" and incomprehensibly wonderful....

"Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, unto him be glory in the Church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Eph. 3:20-21).

What of the bizarre fact that within the last 75 years - mans knowledge suddenly jumped on a hyperbolic curve up?
that is ... the very apparent fullfillment TODAY (the last 75 years or so) of this:
Da 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

I agree with Stauron that you seem to want to ignore the context.
What type of knowledge?

Knowledge of God and of Salvation was indeed increased exponentially on earth during the 40 years between Christ's ascention and parousia as the disciples Literally "ran to and fro" throughout the empire spreading that knowledge.

Anyway, a literal reading of the text "run to and fro" automatically rules out any modern transportation such as Jet planes, trains, automobiles etc.

What do you say is "the strong delusion", or "working of error"?

Again, not suprisingly, I defer to Stauron's comments.

When do you believe the Book of Revelations to be written and how old was John when he wrote it?

The book of Revelation was written by St. John between AD 66-68, in the final years of the Neronic persecution.

See this link:
http://www.preteristvision.org/questions/qa_revelationdate.html

Oh - and one more important thought. Since you've "closed" the book of Revelations, being that it is completely fullfilled, I presume you must have a COMPLETE POINT BY POINT, VERSE BY VERSE explanation for ENTIRE parable? That would be quite the thing to see indeed! On that note - I would presume that all the parables are "loosed" to you also?

I am also unclear on your question here.
Could you elaborate upon it?

Are you looking for a published preterist commentary on the Book of revelation?

I have heard one was in the works, indeed I have heard a preterist study bible was in the works, but I am unsure of when it is due for publication.

Why don't you toss out a few verses you'd like to see the preterist comment on, and we can endeavour to ablidge!

 

[GodsWatchman]

Alright, while I continue to wait patiently for G/Watchman's definition of "Soon"

I had already stated what "soon" is: - When mans time is at 6 days = 6,000 years.

Do I know what the "true date" is today? Nope. But since you have this thing about forcing me to give some date , assuming to make me a "date setter" to "accuse" me with: I'll GUESS it to be less than 100 years. Could I be wrong? Yes - Could I be close? Depends on what close is. Ok? Satisfied with the date thing yet?

Now - I'll get to the rest of your comments sometime this week (I hope ! ). But then again, since I don't know the future - am I not 'date setting' by claiming I'll reply this week also?