Full Preterists - Mt 24:21

[parousia70]

Excuse me? I never said that at 'tall. I never even came close to it - "I can do all things in him that strengtheneth me." by FAITH.

I don't engage in politics!

Jer 17:5 Thus saith Jehovah: Cursed is the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from Jehovah.

- I engage in prayer instead.

Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of Jehovah unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith Jehovah of hosts.

I believe that God works through FAITH and not the acts of man. This is one of my complaints of preterists also - they seek to 'build the kingdom' by the works of the flesh.

Faith without good works is dead my friend, and God works through LOVE, without which Faith is also dead.

---------------

BTW: You 'coyly' dodged my reply by saying I didn't give you the word in question for interpretation - that word was 'ge' in the context of Acts 17: - Oh here ..allow me to 'repaste' it for you:

I'll say your intpretation of this word is a stretch at best: Same word
Ac 17:26 and he made of one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed seasons, and the bounds of their habitation;

"and the bounds of their habitation" seems to implicate that each nation ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH has its territorial boundaries. From this reading it is apparent to mean what it does today - All the face of the earth.

I'll agree that it *CAN* sometimes mean a portion of the land - but when it is prefaced with ALL THE FACE OF (as in Luke) ..that is a real stretch. And on this particular thread- this topic has not been brought up from Luke.

I didn't dodge anything.
You merely said my definition of ge is a stretch, but said nothing about my comment regarding it's biblical usage in apocalyptic motif.

Saying "all flesh on the face of the earth will perish" or otherwise be adversely affected, is common prophetic idiom for describing or fortelling of devistating LOCAL national Judgement. I see no reason to abandon this overwhelming biblical precident in favor of some 21st century hyper-literalization of apocalyptic language, foreign to the prophets of the Bible.

Dictionary definitions of a Biblical word are meaningless when they conflict with the contextual usage of the word in the scriptures.

 

[parousia70]

it's my belief John's writtings were around 95 AD....however......had it been AD 66-68....would not the great tribulation already had been in progress and the seige on Jerusalem already begun.....and surely John didn't get it printed in the next days newspaper....

You are absolutely right!!, and John himself testifies to that fact in the opening of the book.

Revelation 1: 9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,.........19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

So we see above that John was a fellow partaker in THE Tribulation, for as you said, it had already begun, and He was in the spirit on the Lord's Day (aka the "Day of the Lord"), and He was to write down the things which ARE (were then), and the things which would SHORTLY TAKE PLACE (1:1) after.

 

[stauron]

the apostle John was exiled to the island of Patomas by Emperor Domitian who reigned A.D.81-96.Yes after 70 A.D.The Praeterist view ignores the interpretive key of Rev 1:19-20,and gives arbitrary meanings to the symbols found in the book.I want to know why God called John up to His throne to show John future events if they had already occurred in 70 A.D.I want to know why the Mount of Olives has not split open if all the events have taken place(Zechariah 14:4).When did the oceans and rivers turn to blood.When did 1/3 of all trees and all the grass burn up?,among all the other seals,trumpets and bowls. Oh,it all happened locally.Or its all symbolic.Think again!!

roadie432002,

I am sure that you have a hard time imagining anything other than the literal at all costs method of interpretation.

There are many that would disagree with you that are not preterists.

If you would like to engage in something other than spoof-text hurling from a distance, please start a thread about the date Revelation was written or Zechariah 14 (both of which we have touched in this thread) and we would be happy to address your concerns.

Otherwise, I have to agree with P70 that you are simply causing trouble and will ignore you.

I say this with the utmost curtesy and truly wish to have a discussion. But you need to participate for there to be a discussion.

 

[stauron]

I'll say your intpretation of this word is a stretch at best: Same word
Ac 17:26 and he made of one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed seasons, and the bounds of their habitation;

GodsWatchman,

Please explain your understanding of context. Here is an example that, on the surface, works in your favor, so all of a sudden context is important.

Every other place that the context is brought up, you promptly ignore, exactly like you are ignoring this question.

Why is that? Why are you unwilling or afraid to discuss the use and meaning of context?

 

[roadie432002]

quit beating around the bush and answer my questions,if you can.

 

[roadie432002]

parousia,learn to quote the bible correctly.John said "in tribulation".He did not say great tribulation.John used the non technical term to speak of his own personal suffering.

 

[GodsWatchman]

Excuse me? I never said that at 'tall. I never even came close to it - "I can do all things in him that strengtheneth me." by FAITH.

I don't engage in politics!

Jer 17:5 Thus saith Jehovah: Cursed is the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from Jehovah.

- I engage in prayer instead.

Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of Jehovah unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith Jehovah of hosts.

I believe that God works through FAITH and not the acts of man. This is one of my complaints of preterists also - they seek to 'build the kingdom' by the works of the flesh.

Faith without good works is dead my friend, and God works through LOVE, without which Faith is also dead.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
That is to say the FAITH is not real, but just cheap words. Because many say they believe but do not because their 'foot steps' do not show any fear of God whatsoEver. Nor the faith in the promises of God.

Mr 11:24 Therefore I tell you, all things whatever you pray and ask for, believe that you have received them, and you shall have them.

Real Faith comes by professing those things that you believe - that is the "works of Faith". And I'll give you this:

My wife and I have been attempting to have a pregnancy, but due to some complications, its very difficult. After going through all kinds of "worldly efforts" I and other AGREED that she WAS PREGNANT in prayer with God yesterday. Today, just this morning the test came up positive.

Also - Today. My mother went under the 'knife' to have her vocal choords and tounge removed due to cancer. The Dr.s had performed a biopsy last week and had determined her to be TERMINAL - WITHOUT HOPE - and she was to be lanced open this morning and the cancer (her thoat and tounge) was to be removed. Guess what: The Dr.s biopsied her (as she was already under anesthesia) on the operating room table and WHAT? SAY WHAT? NO CANCER - It just "plumb dissappeared!". Just so happens that I and a pastor and another AGREED with God that she was to be MIRACULOUSLY CURED or TAKEN HOME rather than having to be chopped up.

So PRAISE THE LORD - And THATS the results of FAITH. Because WE BELIEVED it - God Honored it. Thats the works and thats the truth!

 

[parousia70]

parousia,learn to quote the bible correctly.John said "in tribulation".He did not say great tribulation.John used the non technical term to speak of his own personal suffering.

Oh, I qoute the Bible correctly.

John said "in THE tribulation", not any old personal tribulation, but THE tribulation of Jesus Christ which He was a partner in with His first century audience.

Rev 1:9

NKJ
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

YLT
I, John, who also [am] your brother, and fellow-partner in the tribulation, and in the reign and endurance, of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, because of the word of God, and because of the testimony of Jesus Christ;
NAS
I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

RSV
I John, your brother, who share with you in Jesus the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

John was writing on the Lords Day, a term which is Biblically interchangable with "the day of the lord". John was hearlading it's then present day arrival , and fortelling of it's soon completion.

The Book of Revelation is nothing less than apostolic confirmation of the then underway Great Tribulation of Israel, on the Day of the Lord's vengeance, at the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ.

 

[parousia70]

My wife and I have been attempting to have a pregnancy, but due to some complications, its very difficult. After going through all kinds of "worldly efforts" I and other AGREED that she WAS PREGNANT in prayer with God yesterday. Today, just this morning the test came up positive.

THATS GREAT! what a blessing!

I know, for 2 weeks ago my wife gave birth to our little girl, also a Child of prayer who came to us after back to back miscarriages, with nothing medical science had to offer.

I am truly overjoyed for you and your wife! I will keep you both in my prayers as the pregnancy progresses, please keep me posted!

AMEN!

Also - Today. My mother went under the 'knife' to have her vocal choords and tounge removed due to cancer. The Dr.s had performed a biopsy last week and had determined her to be TERMINAL - WITHOUT HOPE - and she was to be lanced open this morning and the cancer (her thoat and tounge) was to be removed. Guess what: The Dr.s biopsied her (as she was already under anesthesia) on the operating room table and WHAT? SAY WHAT? NO CANCER - It just "plumb dissappeared!". Just so happens that I and a pastor and another AGREED with God that she was to be MIRACULOUSLY CURED or TAKEN HOME rather than having to be chopped up.

PRAISE THE LORD INDEED! What a miracle!

I just had hernia surgury back in the fall that was somewhat botched, and as a result I have to go back under the knife to correct it.
I pray every day for it to heal without another surgury, but it looks like next week I'll have to go back and get "chopped up". God has answered every single one of my prayers, it's just that sometimes He says "no". Please pray for me and for my surgon.

 

[GodsWatchman]

God has answered every single one of my prayers, it's just that sometimes He says "no". Please pray for me and for my surgon.

I say no instead - Agree with me that you ARE healed on this issue - We have no need a physician - we have one Physician who has proved Himself to us over and over. By Faith be you Healed in the Name of Jesus-AMEN!

 

[stauron]

quit beating around the bush and answer my questions,if you can.

the apostle John was exiled to the island of Patomas by Emperor Domitian who reigned A.D.81-96.Yes after 70 A.D.The Praeterist view ignores the interpretive key of Rev 1:19-20,and gives arbitrary meanings to the symbols found in the book.

Well, actually this is a big mess of assumptions and assertions. Can you please provide some evidence that John wrote during this time?

The much more important and usefull key occurs in these verses:

1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must happen very soon. He made it clear by sending his angel to his servant John, 1:2 who then testified to everything that he saw concerning the word of God and the testimony about Jesus Christ. 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy aloud, and blessed are those who hear and obey the things written in it, because the time is near!

22:6 Then the angel said to me, “These words are reliable and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must happen soon.”22:7 (Look! I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy expressed in this book.)

22:10 Then he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy contained in this book, because the time is near."

22:12 (Look! I am coming soon, and my reward is with me to pay each one according to what he has done!

22:20 The one who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon!” Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!

I think that John was trying to get his reader's attention to the fact that this was going to happen about 2000 years after he wrote it; when they were all dead.

I want to know why God called John up to His throne to show John future events if they had already occurred in 70 A.D.

Well even if I allow you to assume the date (and that ain't gonna happen) then you still need to show how those things took place "soon".

I want to know why the Mount of Olives has not split open if all the events have taken place(Zechariah 14:4).

Well it happened the same way that God fought in ancient days. Let's have a little look at some context:

14:3 Then the Lord will go to battle and fight against those nations, just as he fought battles in ancient days.

Please tell me how God fought in ancient days. Did he ride a horse? What kind of armor did he wear?

When did the oceans and rivers turn to blood.When did 1/3 of all trees and all the grass burn up?,among all the other seals,trumpets and bowls. Oh,it all happened locally.Or its all symbolic.Think again!!

Well as soon as you tell me why John mislead his readers with 7 warnings about the nearness of the events I will be happy to answer you. Unless you want to say that the time statements are symbolic even though the events aren't...

 

[stauron]

My wife and I have been attempting to have a pregnancy, but due to some complications, its very difficult. After going through all kinds of "worldly efforts" I and other AGREED that she WAS PREGNANT in prayer with God yesterday. Today, just this morning the test came up positive.

Also - Today. My mother went under the 'knife' to have her vocal choords and tounge removed due to cancer. The Dr.s had performed a biopsy last week and had determined her to be TERMINAL - WITHOUT HOPE - and she was to be lanced open this morning and the cancer (her thoat and tounge) was to be removed. Guess what: The Dr.s biopsied her (as she was already under anesthesia) on the operating room table and WHAT? SAY WHAT? NO CANCER - It just "plumb dissappeared!". Just so happens that I and a pastor and another AGREED with God that she was to be MIRACULOUSLY CURED or TAKEN HOME rather than having to be chopped up.

So PRAISE THE LORD - And THATS the results of FAITH. Because WE BELIEVED it - God Honored it. Thats the works and thats the truth!

God is indeed good. I join with you in your rejoicing.

 

[parousia70]

I say no instead - Agree with me that you ARE healed on this issue - We have no need a physician - we have one Physician who has proved Himself to us over and over. By Faith be you Healed in the Name of Jesus-AMEN!

Thank you for your intercesson! I am truley blessed to be part of such a powerful online faith community.

One question, you mentioned your mother's remarkable recovery that you and your pastor and another agreed upon.

Did your mother also agree, or was this done apart from her agreement?

What I am getting at, is if she didn't posess the level of faith as you, was your faith still powerful enough to make it happen for her without her involvement?

Your "Faith alone" stance, while extermely honorable, and even enviable to those who are not as strong in their faith as you, poses some challenging issues for me.

For example, if you see a little old lady fall in the street in front of a bus, would you do the "good work" to reach down and help her up, or would you rather find another person to "Agree" with you and God that she get herself up?

Also, if a family member or friend is in danger of starving because of finantial hardship that has made it impossible for her to fill her cupboards, would you do the "good work" of bringing her food to eat, or do you feel it better that you should not bring her any food to eat, but instead find another to "agree" with you and God that her cupboards be miraculously filled on their own?

I am unclear where you draw the line.

 

[GodsWatchman]

Did your mother also agree, or was this done apart from her agreement?

My mother is an unbeliever! There were other prayers as well - My sister, and perhaps others. Only God can answer why He chose to do this - But I see this as gigantic witnessing tool

What I am getting at, is if she didn't posess the level of faith as you, was your faith still powerful enough to make it happen for her without her involvement?

Your "Faith alone" stance, while extermely honorable, and even enviable to those who are not as strong in their faith as you, poses some challenging issues for me.

For example, if you see a little old lady fall in the street in front of a bus, would you do the "good work" to reach down and help her up, or would you rather find another person to "Agree" with you and God that she get herself up?

Also, if a family member or friend is in danger of starving because of finantial hardship that has made it impossible for her to fill her cupboards, would you do the "good work" of bringing her food to eat, or do you feel it better that you should not bring her any food to eat, but instead find another to "agree" with you and God that her cupboards be miraculously filled on their own?

I am unclear where you draw the line.

Lu 14:5 And he said unto them, Which of you shall have an *** or an ox fallen into a well, and will not straightway draw him up on a sabbath day?

If its good enough for the ox - I would think then that helping the woman also would be good enough

- and -

Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit?

So of course I would help the one in need.

The 'direct' answer to this is not something that I can readily reply to because there are an infinite number of situations. I will say that most Christians will seek the (not so good) Dr. BEFORE going to God in faith. Faith is "tried" by God - thats a promise:

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Then ..there is also the 'quandary' of Faith because
Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
But I know that
Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I just look at things in terms of FAITH first. I don't do silly things like "standing in front of a train" for the sake of faith. But more and more in my Walk - I WANT to be as Peter was:

Mt 14:28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water. And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

This is the walk of Faith:
1Th 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
In all things in all places at all costs. And asking in all things for all things through God and believing we have (already/past tense) recieved them.

The very second that I begin to say that I fail in performing this very thing - I sin ..and the sin is in my unbelief.

------------------------------------------
Heres the 'infamous' story about this thing:

A man was fishing off his boat when it suddenly began to sink. One of his shipmates threw him a life jacket, but this man, being deeply religious said "I don't need that, God will save me!" So there he was floating in the water when another boat came along to pick him up but he said "I don't need your help, God will save me!" He was floating for a while longer until a helicopter flew up. The helicopter crew dropped him a rope, but he refused, saying "God will save me!" Finally the man drowns. As he was entering heaven, he sees God standing there and he laments "Lord, I am a good Christian, I go to church every week, why didn't you save me?" God looked at him and said "Look, I gave you a life jacket, I sent a boat and I sent a helicopter, what more did you want me to do?!"
------------------------------------------

One thing that I have learned though. Confession is made WITH THE MOUTH (or keyboard ). And that Confession in those things is what we are. If I say I have no faith, then I indeed have none. So I will not say it. But if I say I have Faith - I can only Confess it ..its the best I can do. One thing for sure though:

Ro 3:3 For what if some were without faith? shall their want of faith make of none effect the faithfulness of God? God forbid: yea, let God be found true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy words, And mightest prevail when thou comest into judgment.

 

[parousia70]

Lu 14:5 And he said unto them, Which of you shall have an *** or an ox fallen into a well, and will not straightway draw him up on a sabbath day?

If its good enough for the ox - I would think then that helping the woman also would be good enough

- and -

Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit?

So of course I would help the one in need.

Wouldn't being involved in passing legislation that enabled the less fortunate have access to life saving goods and services fall under that "good enough" catigory of "helping the one in need"?

Also, I am curious about your wife's pregnancy.

I assume, from your stated stance, that she will not be under any sort of medical care by an OBGYN during her pregnancy, and that you will be having a home birth without that aid of a midwife?

 

[GodsWatchman]

Wouldn't being involved in passing legislation that enabled the less fortunate have access to life saving goods and services fall under that "good enough" catigory of "helping the one in need"?

I used to be an 'engager' as you are now. But I am no longer. I guess that is something that is personal between you and God. As for me - I do not feel that God desires that I get engaged with "the world" like this. If Gods put it before me - He will make it known. I will instead pray for others needs and their salvations.

We will homebirth. Its very common around here (AZ & UT) ... a large percentage home birth with midwives. OBGYN? neah - JESUS instead

 

[disciple00]

Wouldn't being involved in passing legislation that enabled the less fortunate have access to life saving goods and services fall under that "good enough" catigory of "helping the one in need"?

Also, I am curious about your wife's pregnancy.

I assume, from your stated stance, that she will not be under any sort of medical care by an OBGYN during her pregnancy, and that you will be having a home birth without that aid of a midwife?

Parousia,

Being involved in passing legislation is struggling against flesh and blood. Honor the king, you don´t have to campaign for the king. What legislation are you talking about anyway, it sounds like you are trying to be specfic without saying WELFARE. Jesus just helped people in need he didn´t wait for Ceaser to decree such things. Governments can not stop us from serving God it has never worked. Why not give your possesions to the poor instead of legislating another group to do Gods work for you. Jesus did not even have a home during his ministry, what is so vital about this worlds goods that you wouldn´t drop them and run. What part of Jesus´ ministry is over and done with? The raising people from the dead part, healing the blind part...what!!


Back to your second question to Godswatchman. Who was Mary´s OGBYN. Dont give me that "now we have doctors and professionals". Did she need one YES or NO? If God can do that for her why wont or cant he do that for me? We are Commanded to live by faith, it´s not up to you to choose when you are going to trust in God. If Jesus was literally here in the flesh today (though he has NEVER left in spirit) how would he go about world hunger for example? Who he multiply food or run food drives. Would he panhandle corporations for donations, take senators out to lunch for favors? Its so ridiculous to ponder such things. But why do we automatically think that we must use a different route than Jesus. Jesus promised that we would do the same works and greater IF we believed on HIM. Tell me exactly how you "interpet" this verse and others that leave no room for doubts and excuses. Your leaven is WORKS, perhaps you have unknowingly fallin into such a trap.

Love you guys

Disciple00

 

[countrymousenc]

Sigh, P70, I can't resist!

Who was Mary´s OGBYN.

Even back as far as Moses' day Jews had midwives (the ancient OBGYN). Where do either Matthew or Luke state that there was no midwife present when Mary gave birth? Since the text doesn't say, we simply don't know whether she had one or not, only that midwives were usally present at births.

Now, a question for you - Do you drive your car on the public roads? Gasp! You use WELFARE travel? No!

 

[parousia70]

God looked at him and said "Look, I gave you a life jacket, I sent a boat and I sent a helicopter, what more did you want me to do?!"

"I sent an ambulence, a paramedic, a doctor........."

 

[GodsWatchman]

"I sent an ambulence, a paramedic, a doctor........."

Its an old paradigm. But I believe there is a distinct difference between what God may send us versus what we SEEK for. If we SEEK the ambulence, the paramedic or the Dr. BEFORE we seek God - Thats a clear sin. God wants us to seek Him 1st and foremost. And ya know what? Its are silly 'unbelief' and lack of faith that *STOPS* the miracles dead in their tracts. God is faithful to perfect us in ALL things through FAITH.

I like this one - this is my CRY all the day:
Mr 9:23 And Jesus said unto him, If thou canst! All things are possible to him that believeth. Straightway the father of the child cried out, and said, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.