Full Preterism-Where is the scriptural evidence?

[A New World]

Athanasius (A.D. 340)

“Now observe; that city, since the coming of our Savior, has had an end, and all the land of the Jews has been laid waste; so that from the testimony of these things (and we need no further proof, being assured by our own eyes of the fact) there must, of necessity, be an end of the shadow

Not properly identified. Unable to locate.

Located!

Athanasius (A.D. 340) wrote:

Now observe; that city, since the coming of our Savior, has had an end, and all the land of the Jews has been laid waste; so that from the testimony of these things (and we need no further proof, being assured by our own eyes of the fact) there must, of necessity, be an end of the shadow. (Athanasius, Festal Letters, VIII)

 

[Der Alte]

Located!

Athanasius (A.D. 340) wrote:

Now observe; that city, since the coming of our Savior, has had an end, and all the land of the Jews has been laid waste; so that from the testimony of these things (and we need no further proof, being assured by our own eyes of the fact) there must, of necessity, be an end of the shadow. (Athanasius, Festal Letters, VIII)

There does not seem to be a letter VIII.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by A New World

Located!

Athanasius (A.D. 340) wrote:

Now observe; that city, since the coming of our Savior, has had an end, and all the land of the Jews has been laid waste; so that from the testimony of these things (and we need no further proof, being assured by our own eyes of the fact) there must, of necessity, be an end of the shadow. (Athanasius, Festal Letters, VIII)
​

There does not seem to be a letter VIII.

Not sure what this has to do with the full Preterist arguement.

Found this:

Writings of Athanasius - Festal Letters

*snip*

8. Now observe; that city, since the coming of our Savior, has had an end, and all the land of the Jews has been laid waste; so that from the testimony of these things (and we need no further proof, being assured by our own eyes of the fact) there must, of necessity, be an end of the shadow. And not from me should these things be learned, but the sacred voice of the prophet foretold, crying; `Behold upon the mountains the feet of Him that bringeth good tidings, and publisheth peace [3918] ;' and what is the message he published, but that which he goes on to say to them, `Keep thy feasts, O Judah; pay to the Lord thy vows. For they shall no more go to that which is old; it is finished; it is taken away: He is gone up who breathed upon the face, and delivered thee from affliction [3919] .'

Now who is he that went up? a man may say to the Jews, in order that even the boast of the shadow may be done away; neither is it an idle thing to listen to the expression, `It is finished; he is gone up who breathed.' For nothing was finished before he went up who breathed. But as soon as he went up, it was finished. Who was he then, O Jews, as I said before? If Moses, the assertion would be false; for the people were not yet come to the land in which alone they were commanded to perform these rites.
But if Samuel, or any other of the prophets, even in that case there would be a perversion of the truth; for hitherto these things were done in Judæa, and the city was standing. For it was necessary that while that stood, these things should be performed. So that it was none of these, my beloved, who went up.

But if thou wouldest hear the true matter, and be kept from Jewish fables, behold our Saviour who went up, and `breathed upon the face, and said to His disciples, Receive ye the Holy Ghost [3920] .'
For as soon as these things were done, everything was finished, for the altar was broken, and the veil of the temple was rent; and although the city was not yet laid waste, the abomination was ready to sit in the midst of the temple, and the city and those ancient ordinances to receive their final consummation............................


Salute one another with a kiss. All the brethren who are with me salute you.
Here endeth the first Festal Letter of holy Athanasius.


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[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus I believe the biggest hurdle for the Hyper/Full Preterists is convincing the Amills and Full Futurist that not only is ALL of the Olivet Discourse fulfilled, but also ALL of Revelation and every endtime Prophecy, in both the OT and NT, are fulfilled.

Tis a daunting task task and a major uphill battle against those non-Preterists entrenched in the doctrines and beliefs held by a majority of the early Christian churches and the ECFs.

How many of the ECFs were full-Preterists?
Were any of these 3 considered full Preterist?.....................

Good points.

I agree it's a daunting task and an uphill battle. Other than the blinding affect of tradition I'm not sure why it's such a difficult task. My simple mind had no problem accepting the fulfilled view once I considered the following familiar concept.

John gave 'bookend' time statements that should be difficult to miss.


Twice John told his audiences the appointed time was near........

I also appreciate the Preterist Archive. It amazes me when I read many of those considered to be church fathers who held to distinct Preterist views yet they apparently never came to a Full Preterist view. It makes me wonder how many of their books and documents have been edited out of history to preserve a dominant majority view.

The threat of being labeled a heretic was much more a concern when your very life depended on your public doctrinal profession.
We are fortunate that we're not only able to express our opinions, but to do it without threat of violence. I wonder what orthodoxy would look like if every generation could've discussed and debated doctrinal issues freely.

I still believe the Amill view is unorthodox and even more heretical than even the Partial or Full Preterist view. IMHO of course......

This was a rather funny exchange:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7448114-17/#post54283622

Originally Posted by Tangible

HERETIC !!! (joking)

Amillennialism is similar in some respects to Partial Preterism, but as I am sure you are aware, many view full preterism as ... heterodox.
​

Yeah. I have a big fat H branded on me forehead and I carry around a broken sword....drum roll please...

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923-29/#post52748967
How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled [moved from GT to UT]

YouTube - Branded

 

[interpreter]

Good points.

I agree it's a daunting task and an uphill battle. Other than the blinding affect of tradition I'm not sure why it's such a difficult task. My simple mind had no problem accepting the fulfilled view once I considered the following familiar concept.

John gave 'bookend' time statements that should be difficult to miss.

"Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near." (Revelation 1:3 NASB)

"And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Revelation 22:10 NASB)

Twice John told his audiences the appointed time was near.

When we consider that Daniel was told to seal up his vision because it wouldn't be relevant until the time of the end. John was told the opposite, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy" because the end was near.

Though Daniel's vision was sealed and had no immediate relevance to him or his audience, John and his audiences were living when the time of the end was near and his visions remained unsealed and were directly relevant.

I also appreciate the Preterist Archive. It amazes me when I read many of those considered to be church fathers who held to distinct Preterist views yet they apparently never came to a Full Preterist view. It makes me wonder how many of their books and documents have been edited out of history to preserve a dominant majority view.

The threat of being labeled a heretic was much more a concern when your very life depended on your public doctrinal profession. We are fortunate that we're not only able to express our opinions, but to do it without threat of violence. I wonder what orthodoxy would look like if every generation could've discussed and debated doctrinal issues freely.

Most of the Revelation has been fulfilled, but not all of it. We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues of chapter 16.

 

[A New World]

Most of the Revelation has been fulfilled, but not all of it. We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues of chapter 16.

I thought the seven last plagues were to be the judgment of the harlot, Old Covenant Israel, for breaking her covenant with God.

"But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:" (Leviticus 26:14, 15 KJV)

"And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins." (Leviticus 26:21 KJV)

"And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God." (Revelation 15:1 KJV)

Why would we be experiencing what they already experienced?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by interpreter

Most of the Revelation has been fulfilled, but not all of it. We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues of chapter 16.
​

Over how long of a period of time? And when will that be over with?

I thought the seven last plagues were to be the judgment of the harlot, Old Covenant Israel, for breaking her covenant with God.

Why would we be experiencing what they already experienced?

Good point.


.

 

[interpreter]

Over how long of a period of time? And when will that be over with?

.

The 7 last plagues are/were poured out after the great tribulation of WW II, and they last up to a hundred years. For example, scientists say all the fish in the sea will be dead by 2048.

 

[drstevej]

For example, scientists say all the fish in the sea will be dead by 2048.

Documentation. I read where they might if nothing is done to reverse the trends. You state this as fact. Documentation.

 

[parousia70]

For example, scientists say all the fish in the sea will be dead by 2048.

ONE Lone Scientist said this in 2006, and has since recanted:

In 2006 marine ecologist Boris Worm of Dalhousie University suggested that the oceans would be empty of fish by 2048. His prediction made for good sound bite science and the media ran with it. The problem is his prediction was wrong. And now he's admitted as much.

A brand new study published in the journal Science today finds Worm saying he plans to be "hosting a seafood party" in 2048 instead of mourning the loss of all marine ecosystems.

Alarmist media outlets that don't do sufficient research but love a splashy headline and irresponsible activist groups that know good ole' crisis raises good ole' cash are on notice. Your one-time patron saint of sensationalism now says, "our oceans are not a lost cause."

NFI looks forward to mainstream news outlets, like NBC Nightly News, reporting on this about-face after having perpetuated the statistic for so long. The Peacock Network even wrote to NFI on April 23 of this year to tell us it thought its continued reporting of the 2048 statistic was, an "accurate representation of fisheries and fisheries science." This, despite the fact that NFI had provided examples where scientists from academia, the government and even environmentalists had acknowledged the statistic was erroneous.

Maybe NBC will report on today headlines like ones from South Cost Today; Seafood extinction fears unfounded, study finds, the Journal Science Press Release; New hope for fisheries, Associated Press; Fish For Dinner- Overfishing easing in some areas, even the New York Times; Having Fish and Eating It Too.

RIP 2048 Statistic.

Attention News Media- Alarmist 2048 Statistic is Dead | About Seafood

 

[A New World]

Most of the Revelation has been fulfilled, but not all of it. We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues of chapter 16.

The 7 last plagues are/were poured out after the great tribulation of WW II, and they last up to a hundred years. For example, scientists say all the fish in the sea will be dead by 2048.

Again, Moses warned Israel concerning the breaking of her covenant with God.

‘But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant, I also will do this to you: I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

I will set My face against you, and you shall be defeated by your enemies. Those who hate you shall reign over you, and you shall flee when no one pursues you. ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

I will break the pride of your power; I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze. And your strength shall be spent in vain; for your land shall not yield its produce, nor shall the trees of the land yield their fruit. ‘Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins. (Leviticus 26:14-21 NKJV)

Where do you get your understanding of one hundred years of the pouring out of the seven plagues?

John saw "seven angels having the seven last plagues" and "in them the wrath of God" was complete. This was to be done shortly, the appointed time was near. (Rev. 1:3; 22:10)

The purpose of the judgment was to destroy His enemy, the harlot, which was Old Covenant Israel.

This sentence was carried out in AD 70. At that time they could say, "the wrath of God is complete."

The great tribulation occurred during that last days of Old Covenant Israel.

Jesus warned: "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened." (Matthew 24:21, 22 NKJV)

Paul wrote: "But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none" (1 Corinthians 7:29 NASB)

John wrote: "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (Revelation 1:9 NASB)

 

[parousia70]

John gave 'bookend' time statements that should be difficult to miss.

"Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near." (Revelation 1:3 NASB)

"And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Revelation 22:10 NASB)

Twice John told his audiences the appointed time was near.

When we consider that Daniel was told to seal up his vision because it wouldn't be relevant until the time of the end. John was told the opposite, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy" because the end was near.

Though Daniel's vision was sealed and had no immediate relevance to him or his audience, John and his audiences were living when the time of the end was near and his visions remained unsealed and were directly relevant.

Indeed.

It's 500 years from Daniel to Christ, 2000 years from Christ to now.

No reasonable honest Biblical hermeneutic exists that would render 2500 years as "a long time and Far off" to God while simultaneously rendering 2000 years as "at hand, soon, coming shortly, and about to take place"

 

[drstevej]

A little on-topic humor...

 

[interpreter]

Again, Moses warned Israel concerning the breaking of her covenant with God.

‘But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant, I also will do this to you: I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

I will set My face against you, and you shall be defeated by your enemies. Those who hate you shall reign over you, and you shall flee when no one pursues you. ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

I will break the pride of your power; I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze. And your strength shall be spent in vain; for your land shall not yield its produce, nor shall the trees of the land yield their fruit. ‘Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins. (Leviticus 26:14-21 NKJV)

Where do you get your understanding of one hundred years of the pouring out of the seven plagues?

John saw "seven angels having the seven last plagues" and "in them the wrath of God" was complete. This was to be done shortly, the appointed time was near. (Rev. 1:3; 22:10)

The purpose of the judgment was to destroy His enemy, the harlot, which was Old Covenant Israel.

This sentence was carried out in AD 70. At that time they could say, "the wrath of God is complete."

The great tribulation occurred during that last days of Old Covenant Israel.

Jesus warned: "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened." (Matthew 24:21, 22 NKJV)

Paul wrote: "But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none" (1 Corinthians 7:29 NASB)

John wrote: "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (Revelation 1:9 NASB)

We are now experiencing skin cancer, red tides and global warming. And the Euphrates was dry on 9/11, None of these things occurred in the first century. But the Revelation indeed began unfolding soon after it was written, in 312AD.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

A little on-topic humor...

That pic would go quite well with this thread topic on GT


http://www.christianforums.com/t7515660-3/#post65892307
What is the "Valley of Bones in Ezek 37 all about?



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[A New World]

John Lightfoot was a scholar and a prominent author of the Westminster Confession of Faith. The following is a sample of his views:

John Lightfoot-
That the destruction of Jerusalem and the whole Jewish state, is described as if the whole frame of this world were to be dissolved. Nor is it strange, when God destroyed his habitation and city, places once so dear to him, with so direful and sad an overthrow ; his own people, whom he accounted of as much or more, than the whole world beside,— by so dreadful and amazing plagues. Matt. xxiv. 29, 30 ; "The sun shall be darkened, &c. Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man," &c.; which yet are said to fall out, within that generation, ver. 34.—2 Pet. iii. 10; " The heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat," &c. Compare with this, Deut. xxxii. 22 ; Heb. xii. 26 : and observe, that, by elements, are understood the Mosaic elements, Gal. iv. 9 ; Col. ii. 20 : and you will not doubt, that St.~ Peter speaks only of the conflagration of Jerusalem, the destruction of the nation and the abolishing the dispensation of Moses. '

(On Hebrews 12:25-29)
"The following figures are in the same style ; 2 Pet. iii. 10 — "The heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat; the earth also, and the works that are therein, shall be burnt up." How many have no doubt that this passage is descriptive of the conflagration of the world at the day of judgment. But compare Deut. xxxii. 22— "A fire is kindled in mine anger, and it shall burn unto the lowest hell; and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." Hag. ii. 6 — " Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens. and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land." Heb. xii. 26 — "I shake not the earth only, but also heaven." Observe, by the elements, the Mosaic institutions are to be understood, Gal. iv. 9; Col. ii. 20 ; as also the apostle has spoken at sundry times ; and then you will not doubt that he has here spoken of the conflagration of Jerusalem, the subversion of the nation, and of the Mosaic economy.' (Tract. de Spir. Proph. § v.)

(On 2 Peter 3:7-10)
"Thus Peter placeth as parallels, the ruin of the old world, and the ruin of Jerusalem, 1 Pet. iii. 19—21, and by such a comparison his words will be best understood. For. 1. See how he skips from the mention of the death of Christ to the times before the flood, in the eighteenth and nineteenth verses, passing over all the time between. Did not the spirit of Christ preach all along in the times under the law ? Why then doth he take an example only from the times before the flood ? namely, that he might fit the matter to his case, and show that the present state of the Jews was like theirs in the times of Noah, and that their ruin should be like also. So also, in his second epistle, chap. iii. vs. 6" (Exerc. in Matt. xxiv. 37.)

 

[A New World]

A question for the grammarians here. How am I to understand the verb tenses in the following passage?

Heb. 10:9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

Heb. 10:9 τότε εἴρηκεν Ἰδού, ἥκω τοῦ ποιῆσαι ὁ Θεός, τὸ θέλημά σου ἀναιρεῖ τὸ πρῶτον ἵνα τὸ δεύτερον στήσῃ

Heb. 10:9 tote eipon idou hēkō poieō sou thelēma theos anaireō prōtos hina histēmi deuteros

The word "anaireō" is translated "takes away." It is in the present active indicative.

Am I reading this correctly?

Does this say God was still in the process of taking away the first covenant at the time of the writing of the book of Hebrews?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

A question for the grammarians here. How am I to understand the verb tenses in the following passage?

Heb. 10:9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

Heb. 10:9 τότε εἴρηκεν Ἰδού, ἥκω τοῦ ποιῆσαι ὁ Θεός, τὸ θέλημά σου ἀναιρεῖ τὸ πρῶτον ἵνα τὸ δεύτερον στήσῃ

Heb. 10:9 tote eipon idou hēkō poieō sou thelēma theos anaireō prōtos hina histēmi deuteros

The word "anaireō" is translated "takes away." It is in the present active indicative.

Am I reading this correctly?

Does this say God was still in the process of taking away the first covenant at the time of the writing of the book of Hebrews?

This form of #337 is used only in this 1 verse according to this Greek/English interlinear. It shows the tense as vi Pres Act 3

Hope this helps.

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

10:9
Then he hast declared "behold! I am arriving of the to do the will of Thee * the/O God*".
He is taking away/anairei <337> (5719) the first, that the second He should be establishing/setting-up

http://www.greeknewtestament.com/index.htm

Textus Rec.) Hebrews 10:9
tote eirhken idou hkw tou poihsai *o qeoV" to qelhma
sou anairei to prwton ina to deuteron sthsh

Strong's Number G337 matches the Greek &#7936;&#957;&#945;&#953;&#961;&#8051;&#969; (anaire&#333, which occurs 24 times in 22 verses in the Greek concordance
3 times in Gospels {Matthew, Luke}, the rest in Acts, and 1 time here in Hebrews.
One of greek texts and some bible versions leave out "O God" [NASB].

337. anaireo from 303 and (the active of) 138; to take up, i.e. adopt; by implication, to take away (violently), i.e. abolish, murder:--put to death, kill, slay, take away, take up.
303. ana a primary preposition and adverb; properly, up; but (by extension) used (distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.):--
138. haireomai probably akin to 142; to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer:--choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai hel'-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.


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[A New World]

This form of #337 is used only in this 1 verse according to this Greek/English interlinear. It shows the tense as vi Pres Act 3

Hope this helps.

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

10:9
Then he hast declared "behold! I am arriving of the to do the will of Thee * the/O God*".
He is taking away/anairei <337> (5719) the first, that the second He should be establishing/setting-up

Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt

Textus Rec.) Hebrews 10:9
tote eirhken idou hkw tou poihsai *o qeoV" to qelhma
sou anairei to prwton ina to deuteron sthsh

Strong's Number G337 matches the Greek &#7936;&#957;&#945;&#953;&#961;&#941;&#969; (anaire&#333, which occurs 24 times in 22 verses in the Greek concordance
3 times in Gospels {Matthew, Luke}, the rest in Acts, and 1 time here in Hebrews.
One of greek texts and some bible versions leave out "O God" [NASB].

337. anaireo from 303 and (the active of) 138; to take up, i.e. adopt; by implication, to take away (violently), i.e. abolish, murder:--put to death, kill, slay, take away, take up.
303. ana a primary preposition and adverb; properly, up; but (by extension) used (distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.):--
138. haireomai probably akin to 142; to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer:--choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai hel'-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.


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Yes, that helps, thanks LLOJ.

Many think the Old Covenant, referred to as the 'first' in Heb. 8:13; 10:9, passed away at the cross. However, when we read these passages we learn that it was in the process of passing away during the last days generation. This is shown by the rituals of the Law continuing to be performed mentioned in the present tense (i.e. in Heb. 9:9; 10:1).

The actual time of the full 'taking away' of the first to fully establish the second, the New Covenant, was AD 70 when the temple, city, priesthood, elements of the Law and entire Jewish economy finally vanished away.

Notice the definition of 'anaireo' includes the idea of taking away, or abolishing. Though Jesus said He did not come the first time to abolish the Law and the prophets, He apparently intended to fulfill and then take away the covenant at His second coming.

 

[A New World]

We are now experiencing skin cancer, red tides and global warming. And the Euphrates was dry on 9/11, None of these things occurred in the first century. But the Revelation indeed began unfolding soon after it was written, in 312AD.

None of the apostles prophesied skin cancer, red tides or global warming. Their prophecies were related to the judgment of the harlot, Old Covenant Israel, and the end of the Jewish age.

It seems the further we get from the actual context of Israel's last days and her covenantal end, we hear more and more speculative information that has no relevance to Scripture whatsoever.