Full Grown Tree, Can God create ?

[ebia]

I knew where the OP was going by the beginning of the second paragraph.

It took you that long? Were you reading it early in the morning or something?

 

[ebia]

Agreed, however it it must be noted that there is a difference between interpreting the world through scripture and interpreting scripture through the world - the former would be my conviction.

Why? They are both spoken by God.

 

[Dannager]

Agreed, however it it must be noted that there is a difference between interpreting the world through scripture and interpreting scripture through the world - the former would be my conviction.

It should be noted that there is a difference between using scripture to interpret what it was meant to interpret and using scripture to interpret something that it wasn't meant to interpret.

 

[Dannager]

It took you that long? Were you reading it early in the morning or something?

Yeah, actually I posted at 3:30 AM, my time. I'm sure if I'd had a good night's sleep and a cup of coffee I would've been able to tell by the thread title.

 

[Pats]

To those of you who think there'd been no personal attack against the OP:

I knew where the OP was going by the beginning of the second paragraph. Your argument is not new. It is not creative. It is not terribly insightful. It does not exhibit exceptional grammar, spelling, capitalization or punctuation. It has been torn apart countless times on this board. The Bible is not a completely literal set of texts. Also, your facts are wrong. But you're done talking about this so I won't bother to actually point out the inconcistencies. I'm not a big fan of hit-n-run threads.

Great way to greet a newby, guy.

 

[The Lady Kate]

Tree rings for all practical purposes simply represent growth, to conclude that it can be an accurate measurement of a trees age is pushing it a bit.

Even so, even if we limit the meaning of tree rings to represent growth only, you still have to admit that a tree that didn't "grow" in the traditional sense, that is, one that was created instananeously by God, would have no reason to have any rings.

Agreed, however it it must be noted that there is a difference between interpreting the world through scripture and interpreting scripture through the world - the former would be my conviction.

Fair enough, but there is no reason to automatically place scripture as being superior to the world when the world, being God's creation, wrought with His own two hands, is every bit as inspired as scripture.

The two are supposed to work together, and when interpreted, should agree with each other. If one interpretation must change, I don't see why it should automatically be reason.

I would agree, however faith should always lead reason and not the other way around - after all who can say that it is by reason first that they have come to believe in Christ?

"Always" is a strong word... just as we would agree that reason is not an enemy of faith, I would suggest that nor should reason be its slave.

 

[ebia]

To those of you who think there'd been no personal attack against the OP:

Attacks what he said, not the person. If you don't want people to address your comments, don't post them on a debating forum, write a blog instead.

 

[Pats]

Attacks what he said, not the person. If you don't want people to address your comments, don't post them on a debating forum, write a blog instead.

Not all newbys have read the entire forum. It was personal to say that his arguement was one that has already been discussed and unoriginal, not to mention the grammar and spelling remarks. It doesn't respond to the content of the post really at all. Just infers incompetance of posting, wich is personal.

I don't have a problem having my issues debated, as you know. But, it should be noted that there is a difference between debating issues and telling someone off for their spelling.

 

[ebia]

It addressed the content, not the person who posted it.

If it had been me, I would have objected more to the absurdly large font than the spelling, but hey...

 

[Athene]

While we're in the subject of objections, I object to the OP in his second post claiming that those who do not believe in a literal genesis are not true christians. I also object to being told that a lack of faith in God led me to reject a literal genesis.

The OPs second post is packed full of insults towards TEs, but funnily enough Pats, I don't see you pulling up discipledave about that. Birds of a feather flock together I suppose.

 

[Pats]

While we're in the subject of objections, I object to the OP in his second post claiming that those who do not believe in a literal genesis are not true christians. I also object to being told that a lack of faith in God led me to reject a literal genesis.

The OPs second post is packed full of insults towards TEs, but funnily enough Pats, I don't see you pulling up discipledave about that. Birds of a feather flock together I suppose.

Athene, I didn't read the whole thing. Had I noticed that, I don't think I would've even gotten into it. I have never posted with that kind of attitude and this is the first time you've addressed me, so I'd say you wouldn't know.

My fault for skimming through. I definately do NOT agree with that kind of thinking.

 

[chaoschristian]

If the world is only 6000 years old, and is expected to last only a few thousand years to begin with - then how would it even be possible to have a rock that could look millions of years old. It makes as much sense as having a computer or a car that looks millions of years old. If something is not ment to exist that long, how could it look as though it had?

This is an excellent point, and I'm glad you posted this.

How would one recognize something as millions or billions of years old if the only frame of reference one had was thousands of years. The ability to think abstractly in terms of millions of years old would be inhibited to say the least.

It reminds me of the original Planet of the Apes - since no flying creatures survived the apocalypse, the apes had no frame of reference for flying things, and therefore such things were [vizzini]inconceivable[/vizzini].

Likewise, if all of creation was only 6000 years old, and we all believed that, then the notion of a rock being a million years old would be beyond three standard deviations of thinking, or in other words, too far off the rader to be considered rational.

So, you've demonstrated how the 'veil of deception' argumnent is internally flawed and in fact makes God to look rather dumb in the process for not thinking things through.

 

[chaoschristian]

Gahhh!

Reading this post gave me headache.

So, does that make me:

1) the type of person who doesn't enjoy being 'shouted' at with inappropriately sized text

2) the type of person who is wearisome about having his faith questioned by every new neo-creationist PRATT-ler.

3) the anti-christ

Because there are, after all, only three types of people in this world.

Time to go pop an Excedrin.

Can God create a rock, that in every way appears to be millions of years old ?

another Question:

Can God create a full grown tree??

These are simple questions, and remember He is God and can do anything, by merely speaking it.

Let us examine this Tree. pooooof God creates the full grown tree, now scientists come along 5 minutes later and see this tree, they cut it in half, and look at the rings, and determine, by the rings, that the tree is 300 years old, they print newspapers about it, they spread this information all over the world, they have it now taught in schools. Now here is the Truth regardless what the scientist believe, when they cut the tree down, it was only 5 minutes old.

Now you see to me this is a brillant plan of God, knowing that the evolution and creation thing in the last days was going to be very controversial. He created rocks that in all reality appeared in every way to be a billion years old, like when He created that full grown tree above, the tree itself said it was 300 years old based on scientific facts how to tell the age of a tree. So God created the entire world with billion year old rocks, he even set the stars and galaxies and everything else to make it appear to be billions of years old. Now God is quite clear how He created the EArth and everything in it, and He makes sure that, that story survives for 6,000 years to the present day where we are at, and lo and behold Everyone knows how the Bible says God created the Earth, and in how many days He said He created it in.

where getting to the brilliant part, Now God has devised a way ( and done this at creation, He is so brilliant ) so that He can weed out those who believe the Bible through faith or or those who believe what they see with their eyes. Isn't that Brilliant. You see everyone who believes in evolution have alltogether lost faith in what the Words of God clearly say, they have lost Faith because of what the scientists have told them. and you know something here is what is ironic, you can't blame the scientists, when they date these rocks, they in every way appear to be a million years old, that is what the data shows. the problem is man who are suppose to believe the Bible by and through FAITH only, have taken these facts that these scientists have come up with, and have gone about to change Scriptures to fit into what the facts show. and this is wrong.

Let us look at the Tree again, God created that tree full grown, He can do that you know, He's God. and He writes down in the Words of God that He created that Tree full grown, then one hour later some scientist say they have discovered the Tree that the Words of God was talking about. on this planet, there was only this tree and no other, so all the people of this planet, having the Words of God for years see this tree, now according to the Words of God that they were reading, God created that tree in one hour. EVery single person believed that it was created by God in one hour, except for one person, a scientist that did not believe in a God and he was going to prove that it was not True. So this one scientist cuts into the tree, takes samples, prods and pokes, does all kinds of tests. then he goes to all the people and says, this tree is not an hour old, it is three hundred years old and i can prove it, i have the facts right here that prove it is over 300 years old, so he shows them, and yes all the facts point to what he was saying is true. many lost their faith in the Bible when it was proven that it was not an hour old like the Bible said, but was 300 years old like the scientist said. so now you have a division those who believed the tree was 300 years old based on the facts that they see, and those who believed it was an hour old because that is what the Words of God said it was, and they believed it.
Then something else happens, many who had lost faith in the Bible, started thinking how can we still be religious and believe the facts as we see them, they would alter the Words of God to try to fit the facts, and that is what they did, and there was many different ways they tried to do it, they would say maybe an hour with God is 300 years to us, and if that is the case, then the Bible doesn't really mean one hour old, but it really means it is 300 years old. So now we can believe the Bible again and still believe the tree is 300 years old based on the facts that we are told. and even some of the things that they said to the others caused even those who had faith to believe in what they were saying. When God comes down to visit these people, and take those who have faith in Him and His words, who do you think He is going to take, those who change His Words to fit what they believe, or those who merely believe, because that is what the Words of God say and teach. surely i don't have to answer that one.

Truth is, the Bible say God created the earth in 6 days, those who are of the Faith, believe exactly what it says, and they are justified by their faith. Those who think things differently then what the Bible teaches, are those who have lost thier faith because of all the fact humans say is FACTS.

Here is the Truth, if God can create a full grown tree, with rings and all in less than a second by merely saying "TREE" that in all reality APPEARS to be hundreds of years old ( by the rings you can age a tree ), then evolution can be thrown out the window

Here is yet another Truth, God created the Earth and everything in it to appear to us in every way to be millions of years old based on our crude instraments and theories, and wrote in His Words exactly how He did it, the Truth, to see who would believe through Faith what the Words of God say and teach or believe what they see and hear from what scientists says is fact.

Here is another Truth, the God i worship and serve could have created the entire Earth in a matter of a few seconds full grown trees and all, full grown animals and all, but chose to do it, in a week to set a standard of a week for us. On the first day He did this, and the second day He did that, showing that even in His creation of the earth, that there was order to it. also He worked six days and rested on the seventh, He did this also as an example for us, that we should work six days and rest on the seventh, and God Himself did this, showing us the importance of doing this also. You see weeks are on earth, just as there are weeks in Heaven, although a week in Heaven is 7,000 years compared to 7 days here on earth, and even in Heaven they observe the sabbath, this is evident because God Himself said He rested on the Sabbath day, not to mention the 1000 years at the end of the week, is also that sabbath day in Heaven.

You believe what the Bible says, that God created the earth and everything in it in 6 days, you do well
You believe what scientists tell you and go about to change what Genesis clearly says and teaches, into something other then what it says, you have lost your Faith in His Words.

Woe to those who change the Bible to fit their belief, instead of changing their belief to fit the Bible.

If the Bible says God created the Earth in six days, and a person does not believe that, in my opinion that person is anti-christ, because they do not believe what the Words of God teach, and the Words of God are from God, and they are His Words, and they are True.

If the Genesis account is not True, well shoot, lets also say the Matthew account isn't true either. aaaaahhh why stop there i didn't like what JOB went through and scientist say that it isn't possible to go through that and live, so lets throw out the book of JOB. funny thing, scientist say it is impossible for a dead man in the grave to come back to life, we should throw out all the books that refer to Jesus bringing people back to life, thats just not possible. Oh let us throw out any book which talks about the flood, scientists have proven that could not have had happened. So Genesis, Joshua, Psalms, Matthew, Luke, 2 Peter, and Revelations, all these Books need to be removed, because they speak of an event that never happened according to scientists.

This is nonsence, there are three types of people in this world 1) those who believe what the Word of God says 2) those who don't believe what the Word of God says 3) Those who don't believe what the Word of God says, but changed it in such a way so they can say they do believe what it says ( an example of this is when a person says they believe in the Words of God, yet they believe in Evolution, and when you ask them if they believe in the Bible yet they believe in evolution, how can they believe in Genesis and evolution, and they will say, oh i believe in Genesis, it is alogory, or mystical, or symbolic, or whatever else they come up with these days as to not believe what it says. i have had people who believed in evolution tell me they believe Every verse in the Bible, when i asked them about Genesis, they said " Oh thats a poem " lol a poem is what they believed, you see if it is a poem, then it is OK not to believe it word for word, therefore they can say the believe all the verses in the Bible because the verses they don't believe in, are poems, or alogory, or symbolic, or whatever other fancy word they call it, as to not believe what it says. they are decieved and know not the Truth. They have been led astray by their earthly eyes and ears, and refuse to believe with their hearts.

Heres another tidbit of information concerning carbon dating, which is how they tell how old something is. and this is a FACT, if you are carbon date something you will not get the same reading no matter how many times you carbon date the same object. also another FACT, which they have proven. you can take a human bone, that is 80 years old, carbon date it, and it will read any where from 200 years to 1,000 years old, go figure, the bone is 80 years old, but carbon dating says it is a thousand years old. lol this method is used to this day to determine the age of things, and they know full well, and even admitted, that it is not accurate. lol
i am so done talking about this nonsence, turning page now.

^i^

 

[chaoschristian]

Wow, look at the LOVE in these POSTS, all i did in my statment above is voice my opinion on what i believed, and did not attack any person here, why then the attack on me ? Does God give me the right to believe whatever we want? Yes, if then you do not believe what i believe, fine, show me Scriptures that disprove it. So far after reading all these posts concerning what i have said, i was belitttled, more or less called stupid because i didn't address other issues, my grammer was made fun of, and these are supposedly Christians. What did i do to you personally ? NOthing. i did not say anything to anyone in here. what i did do is voice my opinion on what i believed, if you don't agree then move one, better to say nothing, then to cause strife, or cause someone to be offended. Now if you don't agree, reply why you do not agree. you don't have to critize me, call me names, or make fun of my grammer in order to Christian like discuss why you don't agree.

There is a conspicuous absence of ad hominem attacks in the posts responding to your OP.

You have absolutely every right, in as much as the rules of the forum priviledge and constrain you, to state your opinion, just as others have every right to support or refute the elements of your opinion.

You are posting on a public forum. Grammar, spelling and proper web etiquette count.

I could write all of my posts in binary code or leet but I would be foolish to do so. It's difficult to get to the substance of your post if I can't understand what you are attempting to say, or if it triggers a migraine in the process (hint: font size 2 is more than adequate.)

Now the Bible, the Words of God say that God created plants and trees and grass and herb on the third day. That is what the Words of God say and teach, What are your words oh man, Do you also say what the Words of God teach that God created Trees on the third day, or do you teach something different then the Words of God ? Now i am this day critized because i believe the Bible which says God created the trees on the third day, He did not trick us, because He wrote in HIs Words that He created the Trees on the Third day, it is only a trick that you believe man over what the Words of God say.

Not quite, go back and read your Bible again. God did not create the plants and animals. Rather He called forth the seas and the land to birth the plants and animals. Plants and animals are, according to an indicative reading of the Bible, not created directly by God but by the elements at His command.

The only reason i brought up the topic about a Tree, is because the Bible is quite clear He created the trees on the 3rd day. That is why i asked, can God create a tree fully grown ? Yes He can, you ask WHY WOULD HE, Well He did because that is what He said He did, He clearly said on the third day HE created the trees and plants and such, Hello. HE DID MAKE FULL GROWN TREES BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT HE SAID HE DID. It is not my fault you deny what He said He did on the third day, matters of fact you deny Everything He said according to His creation given to us in a Record called Genesis. If then you believe in what the scientists say INSTEAD of what God clearly says in Genesis, who is the one being tricked and decieved.

Go back and read the text again. You are deceiving yourself.

Genesis 2:1: Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2: And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3: And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4: These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

OK i believe what it says here, i believe because they are the Words of God, God rested on the seventh DAY, is it my fault you don't believe it was a DAY, No, that is your fault you don't believe the Words of God and what they say, because you choose to listen to the Words of men and what they say.

Genesis is quite clear How God created the Heavens and the Earth, and frankly i am appauled that anyone would ever question how God said He did it,

And here is the $10K question: does Genesis convey the truth of how God created or why He created? If you are like me, then you accept the revelation of Genesis as conveying the truth of the why and look to the revelation of Creation itself to answer the how.

This is where i have said God's people, those who are True Christians believe through FAITH, ( by the way FAITH being a requirement for SALVATION ) while others lose their Faith because of the evidence.

Only God knows who the faithful are. We are too good at deceiving ourselves and others to ever think that we could be proper judges. That said, faith is the only requirement for salvation within orthodox Christianity.

This is why i brought up can God make a tree full Grown, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT HE DID ON THE THIRD DAY AS SCRIPTURES TEACH. What gets me, people will say Yeah, He can but why would He ? Hello He did because that is what He said He did, Did He not say on the Third DAy He created the trees and plants and herbs and such

You know i guess all the Christians before this evil and perverted generation, died believing a lie, because i will tell you the Truth all the Christians in the past, even the Disicples of Jesus Christ all died believing full well what the Old Testament taught about the creation of the Earth, they all believed it through FAITH and they are justified. This generation though somehow thinks they have some kind of devine knowledge that proves the Genesis creation story is a lie. based solely on the evidence presented unto them, instead of believing by Faith that God created it the way God says He did.

Acceptance of the evidence for evolutionary theory as revealed by Creation through the divine gifts of science and reason does not necessitate scriptutal falsehood. The Genesis account conveys truth, just not the truth that you insist it conveys.

Funny thing here. These same people will believe in Faith that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, because the Words of God says He is, yet they will not believe other parts of the Bible, because of their doubts and lack of Faith. What then, these people can pick and choose what parts of the Bible to believe in. they know not the Truth. The Words of God are that, they are the Words of the Almighty God, and these people question it. WOW, hello all you are doing is asking for it.

Ignoring the fact that it is important to research and understand the literary, historical and cultural contexts of the different parts of scripture puts you in dangerous theological territory. But you can excused, because you seem to be just one of so many victims of this post-modern, post-literate culture that has fallen into the traps inherent in a presentation of scripture only through written codex.

Remainder of rant snipped

Sorry, I can't continue to respond because your post actually had triggered a migraine.

But as my grandmother used to say, "That's the devil trying to get out of ya."