Well... Yes I suppose you are right.. people do need my point of view very badly! (j/k)
Indeed! And thank you for sharing!
Anyway, It depends on how you define eternal security. We are not insecure in the sense that God's promises are unsure, or that there is something out there which might overcome God.
However, that in no way means that it is impossible for a person to "lose" salvation through abandoning faith and allegiance to Christ.
So, as long as you persist in faith, you are eternally secure.
That is what this discussion is about. I disagree. We did not get saved by our own persistence or claiming allegiance to Christ. We did not choose to be saved. Indeed, we were incapable of even that.
Romans 3
10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
We were saved, not by our choice, but by His. He chose us.
I know people have the idea that they come to belief by choice. They wake up one morning and decide that they will get saved today, or they go down to the alter and they think that their salvation was a result of some on the spot choice they just made. But I think that by the time any "choice" presents itself to our minds, the deed has already been done. You have already believed and you have already been born again. Your mind was just playing catch up with what already happened in your spirit. What happened in your spirit was that God revealed the truth of the gospel to you. Faith came because He spoke the words into your spirit.
Romans 10:17 (my para)
Faith comes by a Revelation and a revelation (comes) by a spoken word from Christ.
We like to think we are in control. Our minds and egos want to feel secure that nothing happens to us without our "consent." So our mind runs along behind amening what the spirit has already done... as if God needs our mind's permission. I cannot see that. IMO that entire mindset is born of the anti-Christ spirit that permeates the fallen creation. The church got duped into incorporating that concept into our teaching and doctrine. By that I mean the idea that we make Jesus Lord and Christ...and that unless we give Him "permission" then He is not Lord and Christ over us.
Not so.
God made Jesus Lord and Christ:
Acts:2:
36: Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
There is nothing here that implies we have any say so in this. It is a God decision and it is already done. Jesus is Lord and Christ regardless of what we accept, decide, or choose. He is lord of ALL including every one of us.
Acts:10
36: The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
Romans 10
12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
I think we err greatly when we suggest to people that they have to do something in the form of a "choice" because their faith is then not upon the word of God, but upon their own "determination," or as you put it "persistence." They are resting on the the depth of their own "decisions." To them, Christ is only Christ as long as they "determine" Him to be Christ. But the word of God says that GOD made Jesus to be the Christ, and our faith should be on the strength of HIS word, His choice, His determination... not ours. He did it and we can rest eternally on these facts. Jesus is our Lord and Christ, and He will never cease to be regardless of what we say or do. That is the power of our faith... not on a choice we may or may not stick with, but His word which will never fail or change.
We were saved, not because we chose something, but because we became spiritually aware of these facts in our spirit: That Jesus is both Lord and Christ. That He died for our sins. That He rose from the dead. The mere fact that we are aware of these things is what saves us. Any resulting "choice" we may make is merely mental ascent. Nice... but powerless to actually do or change anything.
From my point of view, its abundantly clear in scripture that it is possible for people to make a real start of faith, and then to turn back and abandon it.
You are making a couple assumptions here. As above, you appear to be thinking that faith comes as a result of a choice and that the strength of your faith is only as strong as the depth of that choice and your persistence to maintain it. You are assuming that all these things are happening as a result of our choices and free will. I actually agree with you that people can lose their salvation... but not by sin or choice. Neither of these have the power to reverse the things that God has done. Only God can change these things. It takes power to do these things. It take miracles (miracles to us... the norm for Him) to change the nature of a spirit from one to another. This is not accomplished by mere choice. Some choice we make does not miraculously change our spirit. Free will cannot perform miracles.
Parables such as the parable of the sower are good examples of this. Then there are the numerous passages through out the new testament that warn believers to be watchful, and to be careful, lest they fall away, and the words which fortell that many shall indeed fall away "first there shall come a great apostasy" "in the last days many shall depart from the faith" etc.
But do these verses specifically state the outcome of this apostasy and departing from the faith? We are assuming here that these things effect some change in our spirit. Is that so? There is also evidence that believers commit terrible sins like fornication.. but they remain saved. They may endure corruption of the flesh (even death) due to their sinning... but does it specifically say they will cease to be the children of God?
Many people won't like this, because it is different than the traditional protestant view of how salvation works, but I am convinced that our western protestant understanding of salvation is not entirely correct. It is incomplete and leaves some things out. It also makes some assumptions that I think are false.
The most basic assumption that I don't agree with is that the "conversion" experience and the "born again" experience are the same thing. I don't think they are, and I don't think that the bible teaches that they are.
Biblically, being born again is linked to baptism, not to "making a decision". One of the most important things about this is that biblically being born again is a completely sovereign act of God's mercy and it is not contingent upon the person.
However, it is also abundantly clear in scripture that God requires obedience, and he requires transformation of the person. This is accomplished by the power and work of the Holy Spirit, but it absolutely and necessarily involves the will of the person.
I agree. You will comes into play when you decide to follow the inclination of your reborn spirit. You have the choice to walk in the spirit or the flesh. What is the outcome of choosing to walk in the flesh? Corruption of the flesh. You reap what you sow. There is ample evidence in the NT that people who sin will suffer a "just recompense of reward." That means the punishment matches the crime. God is just. He does not impart the death penalty for jay walking. Later we may get into "sins unto death" and "sins not unto death."
One common way of phrasing this transformation is "conversion" or sometimes "heart conversion".
When a person is born again, they are made part of the covenant. Part of the Kingdom of God. However, I am convinced that scripture clearly teaches that those who are part of the covenant, and part of the Kingdom, must still undergo the conversion experience, which may begin with a momentary experience, but is fundamentally an ongoing process of transformation.
So, when a person is born again, God gives them a new spirit, which enables them to be transformed and to become united with Christ. At that point they are really in the covenant, and in the kingdom. However, their final judgment will ultimately be based upon wether or not, they truly followed the conversion experience, the process of conversion.
This is why in a some of the parables Jesus makes the clear statement that some who are part of the Kingdom, will be cast into outer darkness.
You see the gift God gives us in being born again is completely unconditional. Yet, final judgement is based upon if that gift bore fruit in your life.
Final judgement is not based on whether or not the seed was planted.. it is based on whether or not the plant bore fruit.
This is why in the parable of the sower, some of the seeds are planted, and they begin to grow.. but then they fail to produce fruit and they die.p
So in a way you seem to be saying that in this life, people in fact DO have eternal security, and that it cannot be lost until the judgment seat of Christ?
This, also, is not about works. I am not remotely saying that if you do enough good deeds, then you will be approved. Rather it is about who and what you become. If you become loving, it is not a work that you did. If you become patient, it is not a work that you did. It is a work of the Spirit, that you allowed God to bring to fruition through your spirit.
You can, however, choose to cooperate with God's work in you, or to oppose it.
Ultimately its about life. When we are born again, we are given the means to partake and to participate in the life of God. However, God does not force us to do so.
in many charismatic circles you hear all sorts of talk about the promises we have in God, who we are in God, etc... yet it is often fairly rare to see those things actually realized in many Christian's lives.. why, if they are promised?
Because people do not avail themselves of the life that God has made available to them through being born again. Our spirit is not what naturally drives out being. We are in this life, natural, or "soulish" creatures. In other words it is our soul that drives us. The soul is the mind, the emotions, and it controls the body.
The life of God is made available through our spirit, but our soul does not naturally partake of it.
Good ideas... thanks for sharing!
I think everything you are saying pertains to this life and the abundance that we can receive due to our walking in the light. This involves temporal justice and blessings... not eternal. IMO.
this is why Paul talked about the war within himself. It is the war between the spirit and the soul, the godly, and the natural, for control.
You only realize the life that God has given you, you only partake of it, when you submit yourself to the spirit that God has given you and you live by the spirit.
It is only then that you can actually begin to realize all the spiritual promises that God has made for us.
thus it is entirely possible for someone to be born again, and yet never really partake of the abundant life, never walk by the spirit, and never really be converted.
It is also very possible for someone to start on that path and begin to experience those things, and then turn back.
Agree.... but the question remains what will happen to those who do not walk in the spirit and ultimately walk in the flesh all their lives. Does that undo the work of Christ and the new birth. They may suffer loss. They may even be turned over to satan for the destruction of their flesh. But what effect does it have on the reborn spirit of Christ in them.
