FSTDT.com

[Izdaari Eristikon]

I have to agree with Desmalia on this type of point - any epistles from Paul, even if he's speaking on his own view, is still annointed by God as truth becuz Paul was directly taught in the wilderness for 3 yrs by God.
That's alot more than we can say for our opinions when we offer them around here.

Paul would simply be going off his teachings given to him by God directly - and he continually said that he had a clear conscience in his teachings & admonitions concerning his apostleship.

As canonized scripture, we can either count on it as truth, or we start down the slippery slopes of "I can discredit this becuz ________". Pretty soon we have the bible cherry picked & customized to suit ourselves wherever we decide it's justfiable.

So.. even still, it couldn't be dismissed as any excuse (not that you are advocating that either).

I do not and would not dismiss anything Paul says. But 1 Timothy 2:12 is one that causes me to raise an eyebrow, and to flag it for further study.

 

[desmalia]

I do not and would not dismiss anything Paul says. But 1 Timothy 2:12 is one that causes me to raise an eyebrow, and to flag it for further study.

Absolutely. We can start a new thread on that if you want to discuss it further.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Yeah, 'cause the one over in General Theology only has about 1265 posts in it so far.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Absolutely. We can start a new thread on that if you want to discuss it further.

Not just yet. I think I'll work on it on my own first, and I'll start with a commentary on those letters by someone I consider a sound scholar and a reliable guide: N.T. Wright (aka Tom Wright), the Anglican Bishop of Durham. (If you can't trust a conservative Anglican Bishop, who can you trust? )

Paul for Everyone: The Pastoral Letters : 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus

There is one reservation I have in relying on Wright for this: He's a New Perspective on Paul guy, so that's another issue I'll have to investigate and decide on. I'll bear that in mind as I go. But NPP was something I was going to have to look into anyway.

 

[desmalia]

Yeah, 'cause the one over in General Theology only has about 1265 posts in it so far.

Ya, but GT is a cesspool. Who would want to post over there? In my experience, there is very little actual discussion, and hardly any of the posters there are Christians (though many claim to represent the Christian view).

Not just yet. I think I'll work on it on my own first, and I'll start with a commentary on those letters by someone I consider a sound scholar and a reliable guide: N.T. Wright (aka Tom Wright), the Anglican Bishop of Durham. (If you can't trust a conservative Anglican Bishop, who can you trust? )

Paul for Everyone: The Pastoral Letters : 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus

There is one reservation I have in relying on Wright for this: He's a New Perspective on Paul guy, so that's another issue I'll have to investigate and decide on. I'll bear that in mind as I go. But NPP was something I was going to have to look into anyway.

Fair enough. It's always good to do the research for ourselves instead of relying on forums. I look forward to seeing what you have found.

 

[Nadiine]

Ya, but GT is a cesspool. Who would want to post over there? In my experience, there is very little actual discussion, and hardly any of the posters there are Christians (though many claim to represent the Christian view).

Fair enough. It's always good to do the research for ourselves instead of relying on forums. I look forward to seeing what you have found.

I've been in the outreach nonChristians area & philosophy & ethics (theology) forums. SAD.
It's no wonder people are so confused about Christianity. I have to wonder if the site does more harm than good all around.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Ya, but GT is a cesspool. Who would want to post over there? In my experience, there is very little actual discussion, and hardly any of the posters there are Christians (though many claim to represent the Christian view).

Hah! You should see the non-CF site I post on. GT is a rose garden.

Anyway, I wasn't really trying to discourage the discussion. Just... well, being myself.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Izzy -- I have other resources to recommend if you're interested, but I would not at all claim them to be unbiased on the issue.

Let me know -- here, PM, or whatever.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Izzy -- I have other resources to recommend if you're interested, but I would not at all claim them to be unbiased on the issue.

Let me know -- here, PM, or whatever.

Sure! Go ahead and tell me. No reason to keep it confidential. Someone else might benefit from it too.

 

[NorrinRadd]

On the specific subject of 1 Tim. 2:12 and thereabouts, Linda Belleville's chapter (Chapter 12) in Discovering Biblical Equality. (Actually, I see that's only one of a few chapters she contributed to that book.) (I take DBE to be an excellent "all in one" resource for the Egalitarian viewpoint. Covers a lot of different ground.)

On the Pastoral Epistles, Gordon Fee's 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus in the New International Biblical Commentary series.

On Pauline teaching on gender issues, Craig Keener's Paul, Women, and Wives is pretty good. A bit woody at times; it's one of his "pastoral" books, as opposed to either "academic" or "layperson."

On the NT in general, Keener's volume in the IVP "Bible Background Commentary."

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Thanks! I'm sure I'll find some of that useful, and someone else may too.

 

[desmalia]

Hah! You should see the non-CF site I post on. GT is a rose garden.

I hear ya. Before I joined CF I used to post on the "religion" forum of a secular dating website. Of the dozens who posted there, I think there were only about two or three believers, including myself. And several who called themselves believers, but were into all kinds of wacky stuff. One insisted on using only the KJV so that he could twist and warp the words to whatever he wanted. For instance he believed that the husband can "put away" his wife (which he chose to believe meant he could ignore her, like putting her in a closet or something), so that he could sleep with other women as he pleases. And then there's the couple that had a whole mix of religious backgrounds (but call themselves Christian, of course), who were on the site looking for a "sister wife". Ya, quite a group. Yet, most of the conversation revolved around various topics related to Christianity. In fact I checked out the forum again recently and that's still the case. Different group of people, but basically the same discussions.

 

[Nadiine]

I hear ya. Before I joined CF I used to post on the "religion" forum of a secular dating website. Of the dozens who posted there, I think there were only about two or three believers, including myself. And several who called themselves believers, but were into all kinds of wacky stuff. One insisted on using only the KJV so that he could twist and warp the words to whatever he wanted. For instance he believed that the husband can "put away" his wife (which he chose to believe meant he could ignore her, like putting her in a closet or something), so that he could sleep with other women as he pleases. And then there's the couple that had a whole mix of religious backgrounds (but call themselves Christian, of course), who were on the site looking for a "sister wife". Ya, quite a group. Yet, most of the conversation revolved around various topics related to Christianity. In fact I checked out the forum again recently and that's still the case. Different group of people, but basically the same discussions.

This is why when I hear about the percentage stats of Christians in the USA (or world for that matter), I take it with a grain of salt.
Start testing these people on REAL essentials of the faith and you'll probly see at least a 50% decrease in those who would actually be labled "Christian".
Our youth growing up are living proof of the lack of Godliness in the home then we wonder why they grow up in the spiritual condition they're in.

 

[Duo]

I just went there now to check it out.....how come I'm not there?

What a sad little forum....sheesh, how do they have the time to trawl through various sites and get those quotes? They must seriously have nothing to do...

You fundamentalists must have nothing to do but talk down to the rest of the educated world.

The site is a good site that points out the surplus of stupidity among fundamentalists. Seriously, there is a quote on there from a guy that thinks the reason why gravity doesnt exist in space is because the touch of man has not weighed the other planets down with "sin". He must have not realized that other planets have their own gravitational pull. Needless to say it is on the top 100, check it out if you dont beleive me.

 

[Nadiine]

You fundamentalists must have nothing to do but talk down to the rest of the educated world.

The site is a good site that points out the surplus of stupidity among fundamentalists. Seriously, there is a quote on there from a guy that thinks the reason why gravity doesnt exist in space is because the touch of man has not weighed the other planets down with "sin". He must have not realized that other planets have their own gravitational pull. Needless to say it is on the top 100, check it out if you dont beleive me.

Pity you can't hear yourself.

I take it liberalists & nonChristians don't say the STUPIDIST, rudest things... we just don't dedicate sites to bashing them & shining a spotlight onto them all -
it's called having a LIFE and not dedicating our time to attacking people.

Try it sometime

 

[Duo]

Pity you can't hear yourself.

I take it liberalists & nonChristians don't say the STUPIDIST, rudest things... we just don't dedicate sites to bashing them & shining a spotlight onto them all -
it's called having a LIFE and not dedicating our time to attacking people.

Try it sometime

Did I ever say "liberalists and non christians dont say the stupidest, rudest things"? No, I did not. Dont misquote me.

For one, I have to ask, how did liberalists get into this? Im not a liberalist. Second, yes, non christians can say stupid rude things, just as christians, or anyone of an abrahamic faith does. For they are all people, and people, atleast the general population, has a declining IQ these days, much lower than it was one hundred years ago. Are you trying to say christians dont say stupid rude things? Please tell me if I misunderstand you.

Now, you say that site is dedicated to bashing christians. Not true. Its dedicated to bashing ANY sort of fundamentalist. There have been quotes on there from muslims, and even other atheists. Also, the site also is dedicated to bashing racists and conspiracy theroists.

And you think that christians dont have sites dedicated to bashing non christians?
Well, what would this be then?: godhatesf ags.com
Its by the Westboro Baptist church. They seem to me like they are fundamentalists dedicating their time to bashing another group they seem to be "sinful". And what about all the death threats aganst abortion doctors and abortion clinic threats from fundamentalists?

You made the statement "Pity you cant hear yourself right now".
I can say the same about you.

 

[Mling]

And I think there's one called Atheists say the stupidest **** or something like that...

Oh, and FSTDT recently saw it's first *agnostic* fundy! He was throwing the gauntlet down in front of atheists.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

And you think that christians dont have sites dedicated to bashing non christians?
Well, what would this be then?: godhatesf ags.com
Its by the Westboro Baptist church. They seem to me like they are fundamentalists dedicating their time to bashing another group they seem to be "sinful". And what about all the death threats aganst abortion doctors and abortion clinic threats from fundamentalists?

I don't think you'll find any defenders of Westboro Baptist Church here. I doubt many of us would even consider them Christian. Nor do I think you'll find anyone here who condones violence against abortion doctors or clinics.

 

[Duo]

I don't think you'll find any defenders of Westboro Baptist Church here. I doubt many of us would even consider them Christian. Nor do I think you'll find anyone here who condones violence against abortion doctors or clinics.

I was merely making a point. She made the statement that " ...we just don't dedicate sites to bashing them & shining a spotlight onto them all -
it's called having a LIFE and not dedicating our time to attacking people."

And my point was that is not true, because there are are large group of christians fundamentalists who do do such things. Although you may not support them, they are still considered fundamentalist christians.

 

[Lisa0315]

I have been quoted over there many times and even won an award once. It is funny because I do not really self-identify as a fundementalist.

Lisa