Frozen..cant move foward! please help :(

Craigd88

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Hello everyone,

I just joined the forums today and I was hoping to get some biblical advice and wisdom from you all.
I met a girl 3 months ago that I really have begun to like. She is a believer as am I. She has had a rough sexual past (been with many partners) and she was engaged to a man for a year but broke it off due to him being an alcoholic (and other reasons). They had a kid together as well but that is a non issue for me.
I REALLY like this girl a lot and I know she has changed. God is working in her everyday it seems. I am thrilled to be a part of it.
BUT here is my troubles:
I feel I cannot date or pursue her because of these two things:
1. She has had sex before marriage which means whoever she has "joined and become one with" is technically who she is married to right? Does God see the act of sex as marriage between two consenting adults? If so she has had many husbands!
2. Even if (1) is not an issue and sex does NOT equal marriage...she was engaged. I read somewhere that engagements were just as sacred and binding as marriages to the ancient Hebrews/Jews. I have even heard that you are not to break engagements unless there is adultery going on. Is this true? Is our common day engagement the same as a berothal (sp or correct word?).

I am deeply frozen in place by these issues. I do not feel like I can pursue her simply because in God's eyes she has already been married even though she never got "married". Is this girl really bound to all them guys she had sex with? Is she bound to that guy she was engaged to but broke it off? I feel so bad for her because shes only 23 and is JUST now learning what it means to follow Christ only to find out that her only hopes for love were washed away with her wrong decision making in her past :(





Can anyone shed light onto this please? Thanks!!!
 

NiobiumTragedy

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1) These are not OT times. You are not married to someone because you have had sex with them.

2) We look at engagement very differently than it was looked at 2000+ years ago. Plus, engagements do not mean you are married. Without getting into all the details, you're safe.

However, considering you've only known this person 3 months, I'm not sure why you're even thinking of any of this at this point in time. Especially because of the past she's had, you have to consider the psychological issues she may have gone or be going through. It may be nothing, but it may be something that causes issues in the future. Time will tell.
 
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Craigd88

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Good advice NiobiumTragedy,

How would you suggest I move on beyond her past? I still get visual images of her with the men she has slept with. It was a small town and she got around...so she may still be bumping into these guys or I might even bump into them! She deleted all of them from her facebook when she met me.

Can I trust a girl that was very sexually promiscuous even though I know she is a believer now? I am afraid....very afraid.
 
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NiobiumTragedy

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You either accept that she has a past and that she's no longer the person she was or you don't.

I will say that you need to deal with that very early on or it will cause you a lot of problems in the future. If you can't get over it, don't bother even getting in the relationship any further because it will end badly. If you can't trust her, you will never really love her.
 
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LinkH

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I had some of the same concerns as a single man looking for a partner. I didn't think sex equaled marriage, but if I had fornicated with a virgin, I may have felt obligated to marry her, which was something else that kept me from crossing that line as a single man.

I don't think fornication is the same as marriage. Yes, two become one in body. But in the Old Testament, if a man took a girl's virginity, the father still had the right to refuse to give her to him, but could still collect the bride price. If marriage were automatic with sex then that passage doesn't make sense.

Also, regarding engagement in the Old Testament, what would happen is a man marrying a virgin would pay the bride price for virgins to her father. Now, at that point, I believe that was when they made a covenant for her to be his wife. After that point, he'd have to divorce her if he wanted to put her away and not be with her.

For me, I didn't want to get engaged and then break it off. But I guess the real line in the sand is her father giving approval. If he's dead, then maybe there is someone else responsible. In the Old Testament, girls who had no brothers could inherit land if their father died. They could marry whoever they wanted but within their father's clan only, and still inherit the land (which kept the land in the right lineage.) Paul says a widow may marry whoever she wills, but only in the Lord.

If you want to apply the Old Testament about engagement to the situation with this woman, then the question is whether or not she was betrothed, not engaged. In the Old Testament, let's say someone anachronistically followed western practice and proposed to a woman. He was the first to get down on one knee, give a girl a ring, and ask her to marry him. Let's say she says yes, not only that, but also swears it in the name of the LORD that she would marry him. If her father finds out, he could declare her vow null and void that day upon hearing it, and neither she nor he would be guilty of the vow. So what I'm saying if you want to apply the Old Testament to it, then the issue is whether her father approved, or perhaps if there was an actual covenant made, not whether she agreed to marry him.

When I got engaged, I wanted to be completely certain beforehand, because after that, there was no going back as far as I was concerned. I wish people would treat it that way in this country. It's just good ethics, IMO. To propose and then withdraw the proposal is extremely hurtful, and in societies that aren't as loose when it comes to sex and marriage as ours, doing this can hurt a girl's chances for marrying later, and maybe a man's.

If I were in your shoes thinking of marrying this woman, I might find out if her father had approved of the engagement and let that contribute to my decision. But if you can't marry a non-virgin or a woman who had been engaged in good conscience, find someone else. It may hurt, but you definitely should not marry someone if you aren't confident that the Lord approves of your marriage based on your understanding of His word. I knew a guy who divorced and remarried with a divorced woman who wondered if he was in a sinful state in his second marriage. Don't put yourself in that situation and don't make a wife suffer through being married in that situation.

It may be she is 'clear' to get married to someone, but your conscience just won't allow it to be you. You need to keep a clean conscience before the Lord.

If you want to marry a virgin, especially if you are one, you can hold out for that. Now, with Internet dating, you can even use Google to do a site search. I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't some 'virgin pride' movement type young women who are Christians who post the fact that they are virgins on the Internet. Some of them may be looking for virgins. You can also do what I did-- find an Asian wife. I happened to be living and working there at the time. I didn't go to Asia just to find a wife. It's the norm for women and men also to be virgins until marriage, and it is considered shameful if they are not.
 
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LinkH

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However, considering you've only known this person 3 months, I'm not sure why you're even thinking of any of this at this point in time. Especially because of the past she's had, you have to consider the psychological issues she may have gone or be going through. It may be nothing, but it may be something that causes issues in the future. Time will tell.

Three months is not too short a time to get engaged if you really do your homework and pray and get some direction on the issue. That may depend on the amount of baggage the person has, and it sounds like she has some.

I saw my wife for about five months before proposing. We were both thinking about it from the get-go, and about a month or so we were both thinking seriously about it though we didn't show each other our cards. If I'd proposed then, I don't think it would have hurt our relationship in the long run.
 
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Craigd88

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Woah! I am not trying to marry this girl anytime soon lol. I was wanting to begin "dating" her with the goal of marriage in mind. I know 3-4 months is way too early to make a judgement on whether this girl would be good for me later on in the context of marriage. Right now I enjoy spending time with her and the like.

LinkH- Her engagement to her ex was NOT really formal nor did the parents really accept it. He didnt even get on one knee or give her a ring at first! It was right after they got in a bad fight so they thought getting engaged would help them fix their issues. It surely didnt sound like an OT engagement where family members were involved and verbal contracts were made.

I think I am safe with regards to that. My struggle will be moving past her past...each day I have to submit my mind to Christ and NOT think of her with her previous partners. Man this is a struggle.

Oh and Happy Resurrection day! He is Risen!!!!!
 
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iambren

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"I still get visual images of her with the men she has slept with. It was a small town and she got around...so she may still be bumping into these guys or I might even bump into them! She deleted all of them from her facebook when she met me.

Can I trust a girl that was very sexually promiscuous even though I know she is a believer now? I am afraid....very afraid."


You do realize these are two issues, right? The first goes to your present opinion of her, your respect and worth of her. If this is not resolved soon you have done yourself and her harm because you can't follow through.

The second is of the future and whether you can trust her to live out her life as a Christian and be faithful to you. NO one can tell you that.

Two things:
1 If you were my son I would tell you not to marry a woman with children. Raise your OWN home.
2 I would take marriage/engagement out of the conversation for a minimum of one year, assuming the above issues are resolved.
 
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LinkH

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When I was unmarried, I was a virgin, and I wanted to marry a virgin. I got the desire to marry a virgin after reading Deuteronomy, and probably from passages like Matthew 19, I Corinthians 6 on two being one flesh. There was one girl, a friend who I could sense a strong connection with that I found attractive that I decided not to pursue anything beyond friendship with partly because I knew she wasn't a virgin. I don't think I broke any hearts. She seemed to show some interest in me, but she was on the rebound and had lots of prospects, so I don't think I broke her heart.

As believers, we should receive all the Lord receives. If someone was a fornicator, adulterer, abuser of himself with mankind, or whatever, but has been washed by the blood of Christ, He is our brother. The same goes for women. But that doesn't mean you have to marry someone whose done those things if you don't want to.

I don't think it's a sin to marry a nonvirgin if she wasn't married before. I have encountered that viewpoint before. Fornication does make two one flesh, but it isn't marriage. If she'd slept with one man and he's a viable marriage candidate (e.g. a believer, not a close relative of hers, not married to someone else) I don't think it is good to get in the middle of that. If I were dating and I were considering single moms, I'd stay away from the situation where the single mom had a child with another single guy. They could end up together, and that might be better for the kids.

Statistically speaking, I've read that women who were either virgins at marriage or only slept with the man they would end up marrying are at a lower risk of divorce. A citation I've read in an academic journal is a study by Teachman. I don't know the year or name of the article. That doesn't mean that someone who sinned in this area is definitely going to get a divorce. But virgins are low-risk.

If I had never married at this age and had the same thoughts, values, and opinions, I'd either be looking for virgins or widows who'd only slept with their husbands. Especially in this society, divorce is so prevalent. I'd look for someone with similar views and similar doctrinal views. They wouldn't have to line up exactly but certain things would need to be the same. I'd look for someone who was anti-divorce. I'd read scenarios on the divorced or married forums on this or other forums or get other examples and ask her opinion. If she gave answers I did not consider in line with the word of God, I'd open the Bible up and discuss it with her (and do that even if she did) and discuss what the passages have to say. If, after all that, she thought it was okay to divorce if you didn't feel 'in love' or if you couldn't get along, or if you couldn't agree on what to do with the money, or if you weren't happy, or whatever, I'd have to take the relationship into the 'just friends' zone.

I'd also see if she had similar views on how husband and wife are to relate to one another. I'd make sure she believed in the husband being the head of the wife and the wife reverencing her husband and submitting to her. I'd ask myself if I could love this woman like Christ loved the church. I'd be looking for someone I fairly easy to love. When your dating, it may be easiest to love, anyway, so I'd think through that. I'd also consider if she would respect me as a husband or be controlling or a nag. That's something you have to manage after marriage somewhat just by how you react and interact with your wife. But you can see how she treats her father if she has a relationship with him, and see how she treats you now. Proverbs warns against a quarrelsome woman.

It may sound a bit old fashioned or Draconian to suggest this, but it is important that a wife be a hard worker. (That's an equally important trait if not more so for women looking for husbands.) Proverbs 31 shows us that the virtuous woman works hard. Her arms are strong for the tasks she does. She has a light going at night. I'm blessed to have a hard-working wife to makes sure the house and kids are taken care of. She cooks great food all the time. I let her handle thing, but when I go to prepare a meal, I realize she puts a lot of effort in planning meals in advance so she can shop. Cooking is a hobby of hers, but it's a lot of work, too. It's a real blessing. Every once in a while on the marriage forums, you read about someone with a lazy spouse who sits around watching TV or playing video games. It's a really important issue for marriage.

As far as marrying a woman with children goes. One the one hand, it can be a good work to raise children who are not your own biologically. There are parents who adopt and take foster children and love them. Some men become step-dads. But if there is another father in the picture, that is a real mess to get into when you don't have to. It's hard to exercise leadership over your home if someone in the home has another father and you are married to the woman he fathered the child with. I know it's common nowadays, but it sure is complicated.

It's easy to think of facts when you aren't involved emotionally in the relationship, like the posters on the forum. If you are spending time with a real life human being, it's a lot different than discussion a list of attributes. Something else to consider is God's will specifically for your life. I was reading an old journal of mine where I wrote down prayers and things like that, and kept a record of some of my conversations with my wife when we started seeing each other. I realized then, I actually checked for a lot of things I advised above. There are a few things I did not go into as much detail as I would advise someone else to know with the benefit of hindsight. But I have been blessed to get the wife I have.

The other 'leg' of my two-legged approach to finding a wife was to pray and get direction from God as to who I should marry. I wanted the Lord to speak to me about it and kept in prayer about it. It seemed like the Lord was telling me she was supposed to be my wife, but I wasn't sure I was hearing. One time, she got upset about something on the phone. Not angry or anything, just our conversation had touched on a sensitive topic. I prayed and sensed the Lord was telling me a story about something that happened in her past and that was why she was upset. The next time we spoke on the phone, she told me that story. Little things like that helped confirm that I was on the right track. There were lots of little things that pushed us in the right direction as we overcame obstacles to getting married. After I had decided to marry her and prayed about it, someone prophesied over us that we would go to many places and minister to many people, which seemed to imply that we would be together for a long time.

With my wife, though, I did not have a really big thing to overcome to make me want to be with her. She hadn't slept around. She was a virgin. She loved God, prayed a lot, no drug abuse, no big red flags, for any of the important criteria I had. Still it was a big decision. In that situation, a quick engagement makes more sense, IMO.

If you don't want to marry this woman, though, and you just know it's not going to happen, don't continue to date her. If you are going to imagine her sleeping around with other guys, and that's going to be a problem for the rest of your life, then you probably should back off of the romantic side of the relationship. She's young but she has a child, so she may want to get married. Dating long eats up time she could be looking for a spouse and it eats up your time. It can also open up more temptation for fornication.
If you don't think she's the right one, but you keep dating, you could end up in a situation where you marry her just because you are too attached or because you've taken up so much of her time you feel guilty, and if those other issues like imagining her with other guys remain, that wouldn't be good.

I say pray about it... a lot. It is possible to get direction on things like this or for the Lord to answer specific prayers that lead you in the right direction like he did for Abraham's servant with Rebecca. You could also spend some time fasting.
 
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JojotheBeloved

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If you can't accept a person for who they are - at their worst as well as their best - than don't get romantically involved with them at all. It sounds like this isn't her problem, it's your problem. You judge her harshly for her past and you have a vivid imagination that causes you to stumble in your thoughts of her. So don't get involved with her. Because whether or not she's a Christian now isn't relevant to the issue you're describing. If she is a Christian and has developed a new set of values which reflects that, it still won't erase her past (although she is forgiven for her past, she still experienced it and it still will affect her) and that's what you seem to have a problem with - the past. There is nothing either she or you or anybody can do about what is in the past. It's done and over with and it happened. So either get over it, or don't get involved.
 
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JojotheBeloved

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And the Bible doesn't deal with romantic relationships in the same way that we do now, because it is a collection of stories from the middle east in an ancient time and culture. That's not to say that it can't be helpful in applying principles to our lives now, but you sound like you're taking texts very literally and that won't help in this situation, because the texts don't speak to the issue at hand in that way.
 
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