From what law did Paul set us free?

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

No, he doesn't say that.

Then again, it doesn't look like Abraham had written communications from God.

That's a good point, but I didn't think you were limiting the scope of the question that way. I was thinking child sacrifice is an abomination to the Lord, regardless of the fact that it wasn't written down at the time He told Abraham to sacrifice his son. I could have just as easily pointed to Jesus telling Peter to rise, kill, and eat the unclean animals in the sheet. That clearly satisfies the limited scope.

 

[Leaf473]

So even though God spoke face to face with Abraham you don't think he knew what God's commands are?

The issue was scripture (something written), not speaking face to face.

 

[Leaf473]

That's a good point, but I didn't think you were limiting the scope of the question that way. I was thinking child sacrifice is an abomination to the Lord, regardless of the fact that it wasn't written down at the time He told Abraham to sacrifice his son. I could have just as easily pointed to Jesus telling Peter to rise, kill, and eat the unclean animals in the sheet. That clearly satisfies the limited scope.

Well, as I was seeing it, it's one thing to have a gut feeling that something is wrong. I think most humans have had that throughout history.

But then if God is speaking to you face to face and tells you to do something, that would be a reason to question your gut.

But I got feeling is something different than what can be read in black and white.

 

[Leaf473]

That's a good point, but I didn't think you were limiting the scope of the question that way. I was thinking child sacrifice is an abomination to the Lord, regardless of the fact that it wasn't written down at the time He told Abraham to sacrifice his son.

I could have just as easily pointed to Jesus telling Peter to rise, kill, and eat the unclean animals in the sheet. That clearly satisfies the limited scope.

About Peter being told to eat unclean animals, if that's what's happening, he doesn't actually understand what the vision is about at the time, if I remember right.

Going into the house of a gentile was against the Pharisees' idea of keeping the law, I think. Peter, having grown up in Galilee, would have been heavily exposed to that teaching, assuming he was a regular attender at synagogue.

But going to a gentile's house is not actually against anything written in the scriptures, I think. Of course, most people back then couldn't read, so Peter would have been dependent on what he was told.

My guess is that it probably wasn't until the apostles and elders gathered in Jerusalem that - as part of a group- Peter understood that the gentiles at least didn't have to keep the clean food laws.

But receiving revelation as a group, especially as a group of apostles, is different than God telling you to do something against what has been written, or your gut feeling.

Those are my thoughts. Did I address your post?

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 10:17 - New Living Translation

Peter was very perplexed. What could the vision mean? Just then the men sent by Cornelius found Simon’s house. Standing outside the gate,

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

Does anybody here believe that God spoke to Abraham face to face one day and said Never sacrifice one of your children to me.

Then on another day he said Sacrifice one of your children to me.

Is that how we are to read the story?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

About Peter being told to eat unclean animals, if that's what's happening, he doesn't actually understand what the vision is about at the time, if I remember right.

Going into the house of a gentile was against the Pharisees' idea of keeping the law, I think. Peter, having grown up in Galilee, would have been heavily exposed to that teaching, assuming he was a regular attender at synagogue.

But going to a gentile's house is not actually against anything written in the scriptures, I think. Of course, most people back then couldn't read, so Peter would have been dependent on what he was told.

My guess is that it probably wasn't until the apostles and elders gathered in Jerusalem that - as part of a group- Peter understood that the gentiles at least didn't have to keep the clean food laws.

But receiving revelation as a group, especially as a group of apostles, is different than God telling you to do something against what has been written, or your gut feeling.

Those are my thoughts. Did I address your post?

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 10:17 - New Living Translation

Peter was very perplexed. What could the vision mean? Just then the men sent by Cornelius found Simon’s house. Standing outside the gate,

www.biblegateway.com

I guess so, in a round about way. It is now clear that you were making a statement and not asking a question in your original post.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Does anybody here believe that God spoke to Abraham face to face one day and said Never sacrifice one of your children to me.

Then on another day he said Sacrifice one of your children to me.

Is that how we are to read the story?

No, what we must grapple with in the story is why God would ask Abraham to do something that is clearly objectionable to anyone's sense of right and wrong. That it is (and always was) objectionable even to God is clearly evident in Scripture.

 

[Leaf473]

No, what we must grapple with in the story is why God would ask Abraham to do something that is clearly objectionable to anyone's sense of right and wrong. That it is (and always was) objectionable even to God is clearly evident in Scripture.

Yes. At the same time, is it related to this?

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 4:3 - New Living Translation

For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”

www.biblegateway.com

If so, how so?

 

[Leaf473]

Perhaps a recap would be good at this point. Here's how I remember it:

I had posted this

Brother, may you prosper and be in good health!

This passage came to my mind

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 4:23-24 - New Living Translation

And when God counted him as righteous, it wasn’t just for Abraham’s benefit. It was recorded for our benefit, too, assuring us that God will also count us as righteous if we believe in him, the one who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

www.biblegateway.com

United in searching God's word!

I don't think there's anything to take issue with there. Our brother @guevaraj responded, perhaps wanting to clarify, with a post that seemed to indicate that Abraham wasn't justified until he offered up his son Isaac on the altar.

My position is that Abraham was justified long before that, before he was even circumcised. And that James 2 is best interpreted in light of that,
meaning that what James is talking about is Abraham demonstrating his faith, demonstrating that he had the kind of faith that results in justification.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Yes. At the same time, is it related to this?

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 4:3 - New Living Translation

For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”

www.biblegateway.com

If so, how so?

I already answered that earlier... here. Well, that was an answer to a different question. I agree with your analysis that Abe's righteousness predated offering Isaac.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Perhaps a recap would be good at this point. Here's how I remember it:

I had posted this


I don't think there's anything to take issue with there. Our brother @guevaraj responded, perhaps wanting to clarify, with a post that seemed to indicate that Abraham wasn't justified until he offered up his son Isaac on the altar.

My position is that Abraham was justified long before that, before he was even circumcised. And that James 2 is best interpreted in light of that,
meaning that what James is talking about is Abraham demonstrating his faith, demonstrating that he had the kind of faith that results in justification.

I agree with all that.

 

[Gary K]

The issue was scripture (something written), not speaking face to face.

So? Abraham couldn't know God's commands because they're not in the Bible? Really? How do you come to that conclusion? It seems to me that even a Bible 50' thick using fine paper couldn't hold all the information of everything that happened, spiritually speaking, during Biblical times.

 

[Dahveed]

I hear what you're saying. My sense is that we believe that God raised Jesus from the dead

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 4:24-25 - New Living Translation

for our benefit, too, assuring us that God will also count us as righteous if we believe in him, the one who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was handed over to die because of our sins, and he was raised to life to make us right with God.

www.biblegateway.com

Well, yes, obeying God is an act of faith.

“The Lord knows those who are His,” 2 Tim 2:19

So, two different things going on in this subject imo
Abraham is declared righteous because he believes what God told him about the future.

If you will walk in My ways...I will give you place Among these who stand here. Zech 3:7

Some of the Israelites are performing an act of faith when they stay in their place ....

In every place where I record My name [cause My name to be remembered through My divine revelation Eph 2:10-13] I will come to you, and I will bless you. Ex 20:24
For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness...who gave us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us. 2 Cor 4:6-7
__________________________________________________________________________________________
Be doers of the word; James 1:21-22 For the body without the spirit is dead; James 2:26

 

[Leaf473]

So? Abraham couldn't know God's commands because they're not in the Bible? Really? How do you come to that conclusion? It seems to me that even a Bible 50' thick using fine paper couldn't hold all the information of everything that happened, spiritually speaking, during Biblical times.

I think knowing something on a gut level is different from being able to read it in black and white.

But suppose God face to face told Abraham all of his commandments. You might want to respond to this post

Does anybody here believe that God spoke to Abraham face to face one day and said Never sacrifice one of your children to me.

Then on another day he said Sacrifice one of your children to me.

Is that how we are to read the story?

 

[Gary K]

I think knowing something on a gut level is different from being able to read it in black and white.

So you only know someone on a gut level But suppose God face to face told Abraham all of his commandments. You might want to respond to this post

So you only know someone on a gut level after having a relationship for years. I'd a say being your friend is a pretty iffy proposition as you don't trust anyone unless you have written communication with them.

Sure. The Bible said exactly what happened.

 

[Leaf473]

So you only know someone on a gut level after having a relationship for years.

We're talking about knowing commandments, not having a relationship with someone.

I'd a say being your friend is a pretty iffy proposition as you don't trust anyone unless you have written communication with them.

Sure.

To what are you saying Sure?

The Bible said exactly what happened.

 

[Gary K]

We're talking about knowing commandments, not having a relationship with someone.



To what are you saying Sure?

So, what does talking about commandments have to do with it? When we know someone we know who they are and what they believe. The same with God. When we know Him as a person we know what His values are and who He is.

I said sure to you said I might want to respond to the post. So I assumed you wanted me to resond to what you were talking about and having an issue with. The Bible tells us exactly what happened between God and Abraham. No need to speculate.

 

[Leaf473]

So, what does talking about commandments have to do with it?

I think how instructions are communicated relates to this discussion.

When we know someone we know who they are and what they believe.

I think it's a growing process. Humans learn more about each other than longer they are together. We continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

The same with God.

I think God reveals himself to us over time.

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 6:3 - New American Standard Bible

and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them.

www.biblegateway.com

When we know Him as a person we know what His values are and who He is.

I said sure to you said I might want to respond to the post.

So I assumed you wanted me to resond to what you were talking about and having an issue with. The Bible tells us exactly what happened between God and Abraham. No need to speculate.

Okay, as you read the scriptures, did God speak with Abraham face-to-face, thus communicating all of his commandments?

 

[Gary K]

I think how instructions are communicated relates to this discussion.


I think it's a growing process. Humans learn more about each other than longer they are together. We continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


I think God reveals himself to us over time.

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 6:3 - New American Standard Bible

and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them.

www.biblegateway.com

Okay, as you read the scriptures, did God speak with Abraham face-to-face, thus communicating all of his commandments?

Yes. That was my entire point. Abraham had to know God's laws or God could not have said this about him.

Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

This happened when Jesus and a couple of angels came down to destroy Sodom and Gommorah. Abraham kept lowering the number of righteous people in Sodom when asking Jesus to not destroy it. If Abraham didn't know God's commandments how could he know what God thought of as a righteous man?

 

[Leaf473]

Yes. That was my entire point. Abraham had to know God's laws or God could not have said this about him.



This happened when Jesus and a couple of angels came down to destroy Sodom and Gommorah. Abraham kept lowering the number of righteous people in Sodom when asking Jesus to not destroy it. If Abraham didn't know God's commandments how could he know what God thought of as a righteous man?

Okay, one day God spoke to Abraham face to face and said, Never sacrifice your children to me.

And then as you read the scriptures, on a different day God spoke to Abraham face to face and said, Sacrifice one of your children to me? Is that how you're reading the scriptures?