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From what law did Paul set us free?

From what law did Paul set us free?

  • the law of Judaism

    Votes: 3 37.5%
  • the law of God

    Votes: 5 62.5%

  • Total voters
    8

BNR32FAN

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Brother, happy Sabbath, starting this Friday May 26, 2023 at 12:35 pm EDT! The dates you provide show God revealing the official apostate church of Rome as a continuation of Rome in Daniel's prophecy. The official church of Rome that persecuted Christians in 1184AD is a continuation of Rome, which destroyed the temple in 70AD, when they later then hijacked the church of Jesus to continue their quest for world supremacy under a human king that caused the schism of 1054AD; the church of Rome rejecting Jesus as our king.
  • 70AD temple destroyed by Rome before Rome hijacked the church of Jesus.
  • 312AD Constantine signed the Edict of Milan making the church of Jesus the official church of Rome.
  • 1054AD the east church did not accept the human kingship of the papacy over the church of Jesus, rejecting Jesus as their king.
  • 1184AD the inquisitions eliminated competing faiths grounded in the word of God who rejected their human traditions in contradiction to the word of God as Jesus rejected the human traditions in Judaism.
The above dates provided show that the word of God in the following passage has Rome continuing from within the official church of Rome. A church as a continuation of Rome that substituted an earthly confessional for the worship of Jesus in the temple in heaven for the forgiveness of sins. A continuation of Rome is why they are the ones who destroyed the temple in 70AD. The word of God reveals in the following passage the continuation of Rome hijacking the church of Jesus for world supremacy under a human king, rejecting Jesus as our King.

It even challenged the Commander of heaven’s army by canceling the daily sacrifices offered to him and by destroying his Temple. The army of heaven was restrained from responding to this rebellion. So the daily sacrifice was halted, and truth was overthrown. The horn succeeded in everything it did. Then I heard two holy ones talking to each other. One of them asked, “How long will the events of this vision last? How long will the rebellion that causes desecration stop the daily sacrifices? How long will the Temple and heaven’s army be trampled on?” (Daniel 8:11-13 NLT fixed)​

Circumcision continues, now done by Jesus for the removal of sin and no longer done by humans.

When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. (Colossians 2:11-12 NLT)​

The Sabbath "day" also continues, now fixed by Jesus from human tradition since "Joshua" through Paul in the book of Hebrews!
So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:6-11 NLT)​

Under Joshua, after Moses, who led them into the Promised Land, the people assumed the Sabbath was the seventh day of the week when the Sabbath falls half a day before the seventh day of the week in Jerusalem. The Sabbath tradition, since Joshua is wrong. The Sabbath tradition of Judaism enters the Sabbath correctly only in Jerusalem, because the Sabbath was not fully understood. The Sabbath tradition of Judaism doesn't enter the Sabbath correctly here in the United States, because they assumed the Sabbath was the same as the seventh day of the week, when God taught them for 40 years in the desert near Jerusalem that keeping the seventh day of the week from morning to morning with Manna does not enter the Sabbath day. The Sabbath day, they later entered half a day earlier in Jerusalem from evening to evening. Joshua wrongly assumed that the evening to evening Sabbath in Jerusalem was the seventh day of the week when the days of the week are from morning to morning as defined in Genesis and confirmed for 40 years in the desert by Manna. God established the days from morning to morning, in the special case of the first day from first light to light again in the morning and subsequent days from morning to morning.

Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. Then he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day” and the darkness “night.” And evening passed and MORNING came, marking the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NLT)​

The reason this correction is needed after the Father put Jesus as our High Priest is because now we worship Jesus in heaven daily for the forgiveness of sins in the heavenly temple from anywhere on the earth through prayer and not just in Jerusalem as it was with the earthly temple with animal sacrifices before the Father put Jesus as our High Priest in the heavenly temple.

Jesus replied, “Believe me, dear woman, the time is coming when it will no longer matter whether you worship the Father on this mountain or in Jerusalem (The Father putting Jesus as our High Priest in the temple in heaven, permitting daily worship for the forgiveness of sins from anywhere by prayer when the earthly temple was done in Jerusalem with animal sacrifices). You Samaritans know very little about the one you worship (no prophets like Moses), while we Jews know all about him (the scriptures by prophets like Moses), for salvation comes through the Jews (Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow in the Eleventh Commandment). But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit (Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow in the Eleventh Commandment) and in truth (the scriptures by prophets like Moses revealing Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow in the Eleventh Commandment). The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way. For God is Spirit (telling us Jesus is Spirit, this use of the word Spirit is not the Holy Spirit), so those who worship him must worship in spirit (following the example of life of righteousness in the flesh of Jesus in the Eleventh Commandment) and in truth (the scriptures by prophets like Moses revealing Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow in the Eleventh Commandment).” (John 4:21-24 NLT overlaid with commentary)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
The Edict of Milan did not make Christianity the official church of Rome. It simply stopped the persecution of Christians and made it legal. Thessalonius was the Emperor that made Christianity the official religion of Rome, not Constantine. After the Edict of Milan was signed paganism was still allowed to continue until Thessalonius declared Christianity as the official religion of Rome.
 
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Leaf473

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We now follow the example of Jesus' life of righteousness in the flesh in the Eleventh Commandment as more complete than the brief Ten Commandments identified as letters engraved on stones.
We follow Jesus's example, but we don't do everything he did.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Brother, happy Sabbath, starting this Friday May 26, 2023 at 12:35 pm EDT! The dates you provide show God revealing the official apostate church of Rome as a continuation of Rome in Daniel's prophecy. The official church of Rome that persecuted Christians in 1184AD is a continuation of Rome, which destroyed the temple in 70AD, when they later then hijacked the church of Jesus to continue their quest for world supremacy under a human king that caused the schism of 1054AD; the church of Rome rejecting Jesus as our king.
  • 70AD temple destroyed by Rome before Rome hijacked the church of Jesus.
  • 312AD Constantine signed the Edict of Milan making the church of Jesus the official church of Rome.
  • 1054AD the east church did not accept the human kingship of the papacy over the church of Jesus, rejecting Jesus as their king.
  • 1184AD the inquisitions eliminated competing faiths grounded in the word of God who rejected their human traditions in contradiction to the word of God as Jesus rejected the human traditions in Judaism.
The above dates provided show that the word of God in the following passage has Rome continuing from within the official church of Rome. A church as a continuation of Rome that substituted an earthly confessional for the worship of Jesus in the temple in heaven for the forgiveness of sins. A continuation of Rome is why they are the ones who destroyed the temple in 70AD. The word of God reveals in the following passage the continuation of Rome hijacking the church of Jesus for world supremacy under a human king, rejecting Jesus as our King.

It even challenged the Commander of heaven’s army by canceling the daily sacrifices offered to him and by destroying his Temple. The army of heaven was restrained from responding to this rebellion. So the daily sacrifice was halted, and truth was overthrown. The horn succeeded in everything it did. Then I heard two holy ones talking to each other. One of them asked, “How long will the events of this vision last? How long will the rebellion that causes desecration stop the daily sacrifices? How long will the Temple and heaven’s army be trampled on?” (Daniel 8:11-13 NLT fixed)​

Circumcision continues, now done by Jesus for the removal of sin and no longer done by humans.

When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. (Colossians 2:11-12 NLT)​

The Sabbath "day" also continues, now fixed by Jesus from human tradition since "Joshua" through Paul in the book of Hebrews!
So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:6-11 NLT)​

Under Joshua, after Moses, who led them into the Promised Land, the people assumed the Sabbath was the seventh day of the week when the Sabbath falls half a day before the seventh day of the week in Jerusalem. The Sabbath tradition, since Joshua is wrong. The Sabbath tradition of Judaism enters the Sabbath correctly only in Jerusalem, because the Sabbath was not fully understood. The Sabbath tradition of Judaism doesn't enter the Sabbath correctly here in the United States, because they assumed the Sabbath was the same as the seventh day of the week, when God taught them for 40 years in the desert near Jerusalem that keeping the seventh day of the week from morning to morning with Manna does not enter the Sabbath day. The Sabbath day, they later entered half a day earlier in Jerusalem from evening to evening. Joshua wrongly assumed that the evening to evening Sabbath in Jerusalem was the seventh day of the week when the days of the week are from morning to morning as defined in Genesis and confirmed for 40 years in the desert by Manna. God established the days from morning to morning, in the special case of the first day from first light to light again in the morning and subsequent days from morning to morning.

Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. Then he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day” and the darkness “night.” And evening passed and MORNING came, marking the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NLT)​

The reason this correction is needed after the Father put Jesus as our High Priest is because now we worship Jesus in heaven daily for the forgiveness of sins in the heavenly temple from anywhere on the earth through prayer and not just in Jerusalem as it was with the earthly temple with animal sacrifices before the Father put Jesus as our High Priest in the heavenly temple.

Jesus replied, “Believe me, dear woman, the time is coming when it will no longer matter whether you worship the Father on this mountain or in Jerusalem (The Father putting Jesus as our High Priest in the temple in heaven, permitting daily worship for the forgiveness of sins from anywhere by prayer when the earthly temple was done in Jerusalem with animal sacrifices). You Samaritans know very little about the one you worship (no prophets like Moses), while we Jews know all about him (the scriptures by prophets like Moses), for salvation comes through the Jews (Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow in the Eleventh Commandment). But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit (Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow in the Eleventh Commandment) and in truth (the scriptures by prophets like Moses revealing Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow in the Eleventh Commandment). The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way. For God is Spirit (telling us Jesus is Spirit, this use of the word Spirit is not the Holy Spirit), so those who worship him must worship in spirit (following the example of life of righteousness in the flesh of Jesus in the Eleventh Commandment) and in truth (the scriptures by prophets like Moses revealing Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow in the Eleventh Commandment).” (John 4:21-24 NLT overlaid with commentary)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
In 1184 Christians were not persecuted by the Roman church it was pagans and Jews who were persecuted until the reformation in the 16th century. That’s when Rome began persecuting Christians of other denominations. Before the 16th century The only thing the Roman church did to other denominations was excommunicate them.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Brother, happy Sabbath, starting this Friday May 26, 2023 at 12:35 pm EDT! The dates you provide show God revealing the official apostate church of Rome as a continuation of Rome in Daniel's prophecy. The official church of Rome that persecuted Christians in 1184AD is a continuation of Rome, which destroyed the temple in 70AD, when they later then hijacked the church of Jesus to continue their quest for world supremacy under a human king that caused the schism of 1054AD; the church of Rome rejecting Jesus as our king.
  • 70AD temple destroyed by Rome before Rome hijacked the church of Jesus.
  • 312AD Constantine signed the Edict of Milan making the church of Jesus the official church of Rome.
  • 1054AD the east church did not accept the human kingship of the papacy over the church of Jesus, rejecting Jesus as their king.
  • 1184AD the inquisitions eliminated competing faiths grounded in the word of God who rejected their human traditions in contradiction to the word of God as Jesus rejected the human traditions in Judaism.
The above dates provided show that the word of God in the following passage has Rome continuing from within the official church of Rome. A church as a continuation of Rome that substituted an earthly confessional for the worship of Jesus in the temple in heaven for the forgiveness of sins. A continuation of Rome is why they are the ones who destroyed the temple in 70AD. The word of God reveals in the following passage the continuation of Rome hijacking the church of Jesus for world supremacy under a human king, rejecting Jesus as our King.

It even challenged the Commander of heaven’s army by canceling the daily sacrifices offered to him and by destroying his Temple. The army of heaven was restrained from responding to this rebellion. So the daily sacrifice was halted, and truth was overthrown. The horn succeeded in everything it did. Then I heard two holy ones talking to each other. One of them asked, “How long will the events of this vision last? How long will the rebellion that causes desecration stop the daily sacrifices? How long will the Temple and heaven’s army be trampled on?” (Daniel 8:11-13 NLT fixed)​

Circumcision continues, now done by Jesus for the removal of sin and no longer done by humans.

When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. (Colossians 2:11-12 NLT)​

The Sabbath "day" also continues, now fixed by Jesus from human tradition since "Joshua" through Paul in the book of Hebrews!
So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:6-11 NLT)​

Under Joshua, after Moses, who led them into the Promised Land, the people assumed the Sabbath was the seventh day of the week when the Sabbath falls half a day before the seventh day of the week in Jerusalem. The Sabbath tradition, since Joshua is wrong. The Sabbath tradition of Judaism enters the Sabbath correctly only in Jerusalem, because the Sabbath was not fully understood. The Sabbath tradition of Judaism doesn't enter the Sabbath correctly here in the United States, because they assumed the Sabbath was the same as the seventh day of the week, when God taught them for 40 years in the desert near Jerusalem that keeping the seventh day of the week from morning to morning with Manna does not enter the Sabbath day. The Sabbath day, they later entered half a day earlier in Jerusalem from evening to evening. Joshua wrongly assumed that the evening to evening Sabbath in Jerusalem was the seventh day of the week when the days of the week are from morning to morning as defined in Genesis and confirmed for 40 years in the desert by Manna. God established the days from morning to morning, in the special case of the first day from first light to light again in the morning and subsequent days from morning to morning.

Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. Then he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day” and the darkness “night.” And evening passed and MORNING came, marking the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NLT)​

The reason this correction is needed after the Father put Jesus as our High Priest is because now we worship Jesus in heaven daily for the forgiveness of sins in the heavenly temple from anywhere on the earth through prayer and not just in Jerusalem as it was with the earthly temple with animal sacrifices before the Father put Jesus as our High Priest in the heavenly temple.

Jesus replied, “Believe me, dear woman, the time is coming when it will no longer matter whether you worship the Father on this mountain or in Jerusalem (The Father putting Jesus as our High Priest in the temple in heaven, permitting daily worship for the forgiveness of sins from anywhere by prayer when the earthly temple was done in Jerusalem with animal sacrifices). You Samaritans know very little about the one you worship (no prophets like Moses), while we Jews know all about him (the scriptures by prophets like Moses), for salvation comes through the Jews (Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow in the Eleventh Commandment). But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit (Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow in the Eleventh Commandment) and in truth (the scriptures by prophets like Moses revealing Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow in the Eleventh Commandment). The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way. For God is Spirit (telling us Jesus is Spirit, this use of the word Spirit is not the Holy Spirit), so those who worship him must worship in spirit (following the example of life of righteousness in the flesh of Jesus in the Eleventh Commandment) and in truth (the scriptures by prophets like Moses revealing Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow in the Eleventh Commandment).” (John 4:21-24 NLT overlaid with commentary)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
The day of rest that is STILL TO COME in Hebrews 4 is not the Saturday Sabbath. The Saturday Sabbath came 1500 years before Hebrews was written. So if it were referring to the Saturday Sabbath it wouldn’t say that it is “still to come” implying that it hasn’t come yet. The day of rest that is to come takes place after Judgement Day.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Circumcision continues, now done by Jesus for the removal of sin and no longer done by humans.

When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. (Colossians 2:11-12 NLT)
The Sabbath "day" also continues, now fixed by Jesus from human tradition since "Joshua" through Paul in the book of Hebrews!
Except Paul is teaching that both circumcision and the Sabbath along with the dietary laws according to the Mosaic law were but mere shadows of what was to come. That’s why he said

“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Observing the Sabbath doesn’t define a Christian. Furthermore God never commanded anyone to worship on the Sabbath they were commanded to cease from works, not to worship.
 
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Dahveed

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Brothers and Sisters, Paul assumes the listener knows what is written elsewhere and uses summary words like "the law" where the word has already been expanded elsewhere. When Paul uses the word law, unqualified, he is referring to the law of Judaism Jesus has freed us from
Giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you[f] to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation; Col 1:12-15
 
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Dahveed

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Giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation; Col 1:12-15
“Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. (Matthew 5:17-20 NLT)
Jesus has not achieved everything the prophets said of Him...
These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” And He opened their understanding...Luke 24:43-45

Whoever has the Son has life; 1 John 5:12
The Son of God has come and has given us understanding.... 1 John 5:20
 
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expos4ever

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Brother, happy Sabbath, starting this Friday May 19, 2023 at 12:31 pm EDT! Even those who do not know God have human laws. We will all be judged by those human laws intuitively known to those who do not know God telling humans what is right and whether we choose to do what is right or not. Even though Judaism keeps a perversion of God's "order" by the prophets, it is still better than human law intuitively known to Gentiles who do not obey God at all.
You are defending a hopelessly flawed position. Let's remind readers what you are doing to the relevant text from Romans 2:

Verse 12 as written by Paul:

When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law. And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.

..and now your rewriting of verse 12:

When the Gentiles sin (break their own human law), they will be destroyed, even though they never had the law (of Judaism). And the Jews, who do have the law (of Judaism), will be judged by that law (of Judaism) when they fail to obey it.

You are radically changing the meaning of the text. Paul is obviously referring to the Law of Moses - you will not be able to find a single reputable scholar who agrees with your butchery of the text!

You are expecting us to believe that God will judge us according to the laws we have made and not according to His laws?

Do you really believe anyone will fall for this? Do any of the other Adventists on this site share your view on what Paul is saying in verse 12? I very much doubt it.
 
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guevaraj

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The Edict of Milan did not make Christianity the official church of Rome. It simply stopped the persecution of Christians and made it legal. Thessalonius was the Emperor that made Christianity the official religion of Rome, not Constantine. After the Edict of Milan was signed paganism was still allowed to continue until Thessalonius declared Christianity as the official religion of Rome.
Brother, happy Sabbath, starting this Friday June 2, 2023 at 12:40 pm EDT! Satan's master plan to stop God's effort to separate the saved from the lost was to put Rome's imperial aspirations into the church of Jesus through Constantine in the following passage.

Here is another story Jesus told: “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a farmer who planted good seed in his field (Jesus' church). But that night as the workers slept, his enemy (Satan) came and planted weeds (Constantine sees a sign of a cross in heaven bearing the inscription “By this symbol you will conquer”, which he later understood to mean he would conquer as emperor of Rome if he joins the church of Jesus) among the wheat (Jesus' followers), then slipped away (Satan than distanced himself from the damage he started in the church of Jesus). When the crop began to grow and produce grain (more of Jesus' followers), the weeds also grew (secular human traditions hijacked the church of Jesus). “The farmer’s workers went to him and said, ‘Sir, the field where you planted that good seed (of obedience to God's word) is full of weeds (the disobedient to God's word)! Where did they come from?’ “‘An enemy (Satan) has done this!’ the farmer exclaimed. “‘Should we pull out the weeds (remove the disobedient to God's word)?’ they asked. “‘No,’ he replied, ‘you’ll uproot the wheat (those being reached by the church) if you do. Let both grow together until the harvest (on the return of Jesus). Then I will tell the harvesters (angels) to sort out the weeds (separate the disobedient), tie them into bundles, and burn them (the beast and the false prophet where tossed into the lake of fire), and to put the wheat (the obedient together with those that take part in the first resurrection) in the barn (taken to heaven for a thousand years before returning to inherit the earth).’” (Matthew 13:24-30 NLT)​
In 1184 Christians were not persecuted by the Roman church it was pagans and Jews who were persecuted until the reformation in the 16th century. That’s when Rome began persecuting Christians of other denominations. Before the 16th century The only thing the Roman church did to other denominations was excommunicate them.
Rome, having hijacked the church, has the blood of martyrs on their hands and Jesus will avenge their blood when He returns.

When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their testimony. They shouted to the Lord and said, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you judge the people who belong to this world and avenge our blood for what they have done to us?” Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters—their fellow servants of Jesus who were to be martyred—had joined them. (Revelation 6:9-11 NLT)​

We are told to come out of the church hijacked by Rome so that we are not destroyed with her when God judges her on Jesus' return.

Then I heard another voice calling from heaven, “Come away from her, my people. Do not take part in her sins, or you will be punished with her. For her sins are piled as high as heaven, and God remembers her evil deeds. Do to her as she has done to others. Double her penalty for all her evil deeds. She brewed a cup of terror for others, so brew twice as much for her. She glorified herself and lived in luxury, so match it now with torment and sorrow. She boasted in her heart, ‘I am queen on my throne. I am no helpless widow, and I have no reason to mourn.’ Therefore, these plagues will overtake her in a single day—death and mourning and famine. She will be completely consumed by fire, for the Lord God who judges her is mighty. (Revelation 18:4-8 NLT)​
The day of rest that is STILL TO COME in Hebrews 4 is not the Saturday Sabbath. The Saturday Sabbath came 1500 years before Hebrews was written. So if it were referring to the Saturday Sabbath it wouldn’t say that it is “still to come” implying that it hasn’t come yet. The day of rest that is to come takes place after Judgement Day.
The following passage tells us that "another day" of rest yet to come was taught to Israel before David during the 40 years in the desert but "it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God". Joshua did not listen to God regarding how God prevented them by an "oath" from entering the day of rest during the 40 years in the desert. God kept them from entering the Sabbath by having them keep with Manna the true seventh day of the week from morning to morning, which is the wrong Sabbath near Jerusalem. Joshua paid no attention to the fact they later entered the correct Sabbath in Jerusalem half a day before the seventh day in Jerusalem, from evening to evening, compared to them having kept for 40 years the seventh day with Manna from morning to morning near Jerusalem, which was correct in Eden but not near Jerusalem. Now the facts are highlighted again in the book of Hebrews after David, as it was taught to Israel before David during the 40 years in the desert. The passage says that keeping the seventh day of the week from morning to morning for 40 years does not enter God's day of rest near Jerusalem, that they later entered half a day before the seventh day of the week in Jerusalem from evening to evening. This passage is not talking about the new day of rest invented by humans on Sunday instead of the Sabbath, but the original day of rest established on the seventh day of creation that was not correctly received by Joshua because Israel "didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God", blinding them to how God had prevented them from entering His rest during the 40 years in the desert with Manna by having them keep the true seventh day of the week that does not enter the Sabbath near Jerusalem. Now we have a second chance through Paul in the book of Hebrews to receive the true day of rest on the seventh day of creation, entered in Jerusalem a half day before the seventh day of the week. The Sabbath was taught to Judaism as not being the same as the seventh day of the week during the 40 years in the desert near Jerusalem. We are asked by Paul in the new covenant to listen to the facts again, to correct the error where Joshua assumed the Sabbath, that falls in Jerusalem a half day before the seventh day, was thought wrongly to be the seventh day of the week, when the Sabbath in Jerusalem falls half a day earlier than the seventh day of the week in Jerusalem. The Sabbath is fixed in the time zone of creation in Eden and entered together by everyone worldwide and not as it is done currently, where it is Sabbath for some and a regular day for others on the other side of the world.

God’s promise of entering his rest (on the Sabbath) still stands (as taught for 40 years in the desert not to be the same as the seventh day of the week in Jerusalem), so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it (by failing to correct the error in Judaism since Joshua). For this good news—that God has prepared this rest (on the Sabbath)—has been announced to us (by Paul in the book of Hebrews) just as it was to them (having been taught for 40 years in the desert that the Sabbath is not the same as the seventh day of the week near Jerusalem). But it did them (like Joshua) no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God (which blinded them to the fact that the Sabbath in Jerusalem is not the same as the seventh day of the week in Jerusalem). For only we who believe (Paul's second chance to correct the Sabbath in the book of Hebrews) can enter his rest (on the true Sabbath worldwide fixed in the time zone of creation in Eden and not just a human tradition in Judaism correct in Jerusalem but nowhere else). As for the others (who perished for 40 years in the desert), God said, “In my anger I took an oath (preventing the removal of the punishment for 40 years even if God forgave them): ‘They will never enter my place of rest (on the Sabbath),’” even though this rest (on the Sabbath) has been ready since he made the world (having been established on the first week of creation in Eden). We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work” (establishing the Sabbath in Eden). But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest” (by "oath" God prevented them with Manna from entering the right Sabbath near Jerusalem). So God’s rest (on the Sabbath) is there for people to enter (when corrected from human error since Joshua), but those who first heard this good news (who died for 40 years in the desert) failed to enter because they disobeyed God (being punished with manna for 40 years to prevent them from entering the correct Sabbath near Jerusalem). So God set another time for entering his rest (on the Sabbath), and that time is today (through Paul's second chance to correct the Sabbath in the book of Hebrews). God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” (when you listen to the facts of the true seventh day of the week from morning to morning found in Genesis and in the story of Manna) Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest (on the Sabbath), God would not have spoken about another day (which is a half a day earlier than the seventh day of the week in Jerusalem) of rest (on the Sabbath) still to come. (when Judaism's human tradition that the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week in Jerusalem is corrected from human error recognizing that it falls in Jerusalem a half day before the seventh day of the week). So there is a special rest (where the Sabbath is not the same as the seventh day of the week) still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest (on the Sabbath) have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. (giving us a fixed Sabbath in the time zone of creation in Eden) So let us do our best to enter that rest (on the Sabbath). But if we disobey God (keeping the human tradition in Judaism), as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (because the Sabbath is foundational in the new covenant in giving certainty over many other truths in the Bible that prepare us for Jesus' soon return) (Hebrews 4:1-11 NLT overlaid with commentary)​
Except Paul is teaching that both circumcision and the Sabbath along with the dietary laws according to the Mosaic law were but mere shadows of what was to come. That’s why he said
Shadow to reality means it continues better than it was before and does not mean it goes away because you want the Sabbath to go away.
“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day”
Colossians 2:16 NASB1995
It means that you are not to let Judaism judge you on the reality Jesus brought to the shadows. For example circumcision now being done by Jesus and no longer done by humans.
Observing the Sabbath doesn’t define a Christian.
Paul tells us "we will fall" without the Sabbath made "holy" on the seventh day of creation!

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:1-11 NLT)​
Furthermore God never commanded anyone to worship on the Sabbath they were commanded to cease from works, not to worship.
The Sabbath meets our need to rest in God by worshiping Him who created the heavens and the earth on His "holy" day, providing us with everything we need when He made us a home on this planet. Our worship is a reminder that God meets our needs. We are reminded of the one who made the heavens and the earth by resting on the day He made "holy" to celebrate His providing us a home on this planet we call the earth.

One Sabbath day as Jesus was walking through some grainfields, his disciples began breaking off heads of grain to eat. But the Pharisees said to Jesus, “Look, why are they breaking the law by harvesting grain on the Sabbath?” Jesus said to them, “Haven’t you ever read in the Scriptures what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He went into the house of God (during the days when Abiathar was high priest) and broke the law by eating the sacred loaves of bread that only the priests are allowed to eat. He also gave some to his companions.” Then Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made to meet the needs of people, and not people to meet the requirements of the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord, even over the Sabbath!” (Mark 2:23-28 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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guevaraj

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We follow Jesus's example, but we don't do everything he did.
Brother, happy Sabbath, starting this Friday June 2, 2023 at 12:40 pm EDT! According to the following passage not only can we do "the same works" but "even greater works" than Jesus did.

“I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father. You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, so that the Son can bring glory to the Father. Yes, ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it! (John 14:12-14 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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guevaraj

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The Son of God has come and has given us understanding.... 1 John 5:20
Brother, happy Sabbath, starting this Friday June 2, 2023 at 12:40 pm EDT! Jesus has given us understanding through Paul, but most of us have not understood Paul's message because our sinful human nature wants the opposite of Paul's message. The word "Spirit" used in the following passage is Jesus in the flesh, as the best example of obeying the Ten Commandments for us to follow, rather than Judaism's tradition of not obeying "all" of the Ten Commandments. Paul tells us the word "Spirit" is Jesus and not the Holy Spirit by saying in the passage: "the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image". People use the word "Spirit" in this passage to refer to the Holy Spirit instead of Jesus, because they want to do away with the Ten Commandments when that is not Paul's message but what our sinful human nature wants. Paul's true message wants us to obey "all" the Ten Commandments by having us follow Jesus' example in the flesh instead of Judaism's tradition of not obeying "all" the Ten Commandments when they replaced the Ten Commandments with human "law". For example, Judaism is cursed because instead of obeying God by learning to use His name properly, Judaism replaced God's Third Commandment with their own human "law" to not utter God's name at all, thus disobeying to learn to use God's name properly. The "Spirit" Paul tells us we are to follow, instead of Judaism's human tradition of not obeying "all" the Ten Commandments, is Jesus' example in the flesh of obeying "all" the Ten Commandments. Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow, in the new Eleventh Commandment, is more complete than the Ten commandments written in letters on stone, where Jesus obeyed "all" the Ten Commandments for us to follow His example when Judaism did not obey "all" of the Ten Commandments.

We are confident of all this because of our great trust in God through Christ (as the true example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow). It is not that we think we are qualified to do anything on our own (excusing our disobedience as coming from the Holy Spirit). Our qualification comes from God (sending us Jesus as the true example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow). He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant (Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow). This is a covenant not of written laws (Ten Commandments), but of the Spirit (this use of the word "Spirit" is Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow and not the Holy Spirit used as an excuse to do away with the Ten Commandments when Jesus, as our example obeyed them). The old written covenant ends in death (sabotaged by Judaism to not remove sin); but under the new covenant, the Spirit (Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow) gives life. The old way (God's "order" by prophets like Moses), with laws etched in stone (Ten Commandments), led to death (Sabotaged by Judaism to not remove sin), though it began with such glory (leading to righteousness) that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God (leading to righteousness), even though the brightness was already fading away (Judaism's unwillingness to obey "all" the Ten Commandments). Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory (Eleven Commandments) under the new way (Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow), now that the Holy Spirit (not the Holy Spirit but Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow) gives life? If the old way (written laws etched in stone), which brings condemnation (Judaism not fully obeying "all" the Ten Commandments), was glorious (leading to righteousness), how much more glorious (leading to righteousness) is the new way (Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow), which makes us right with God (removes sin)! In fact, that first glory (which led to righteousness) was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory (leading to righteousness) of the new way (Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow). So if the old way (written laws etched in stone), which has been replaced, was glorious (led to righteousness), how much more glorious (leading to righteousness) is the new (Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow), which remains forever! Since this new way (of following the example of Jesus, rather than written instructions on stone) gives us such confidence, we can be very bold (obeying all the Ten Commandments, learning to use God's name properly). We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory (which led to righteousness), even though it was destined to fade away (Judaism's unwillingness to obey all the Ten Commandments). But the people’s minds were hardened (to not obey all the Ten Commandments), and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth (of replacing God's Commandments with their own human law). And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ (as the example in the flesh to follow). Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand (they failed to obey all of God's Ten Commandments). But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. For the Lord is the Spirit (Jesus is the Spirit who obeys the Ten Commandments best as our example to follow and Paul is not referring to the Holy Spirit as an excuse to disobey the Ten Commandments), and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (from sin and not from God's Ten Commandments). So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord (leading to righteousness). And the Lord—who is the Spirit (Jesus is the "Spirit" Paul is telling us to follow and not the Holy Spirit, whose job is to tell us things through prophets and remind us of Jesus' example of life of righteousness in the flesh to follow)—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image. (2 Corinthians 3:4-18 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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guevaraj

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You are expecting us to believe that God will judge us according to the laws we have made and not according to His laws?
Brother, happy Sabbath, starting this Friday June 2, 2023 at 12:40 pm EDT! This passage is definitive evidence that what Paul is referring to with his use of the word "law" alone is the law of Judaism in general with its added human law that humans can agree to without knowing God's word through the Prophets like Moses. For example, humans know that defamation is damaging to the reputation of a person, but they defame the name of God by misusing His name through cursing all the time. What the passage says is that those who do not have God's "order" through the prophets like Moses will be judged by their own human law expressed in Judaism. God's law is more perfect than ours, but ours which is also found in Judaism is good enough to damn or set us free when we follow what we "instinctively" know in our "own conscience and thoughts" when we do not have God's "order" through the prophets like Moses.

“My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the LORD. “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9 NLT)​

Our human law, also found in Judaism, is what Paul means by the word "instinctively" and the phrase: "their own conscience and thoughts"! Not all of the law of Judaism, which also has God's "order" through the prophets like Moses, but the overlap between human law added to Judaism and human law which is instinctively known and found in our governments. To illustrate, let's say we have two circles. The one on the left represents all of the laws of Judaism with its added human law. The one on the right represents human law found in our governments. Those who do not have God's "order" through the prophets are judged by the human law in the section that is overlapping between the two circles representing the added human law of Judaism and the human law instinctively known and found in our governments. The translators assumed the law of God when Paul speaks of the "law" of Judaism in general, including what humans instinctively know that was added to the law of Judaism that Gentiles can agree to, even if they do not have God's "order" through the prophets like Moses.

When the Gentiles sin (by breaking their own instinctively known human law), they will be destroyed, even though they never had the law (of Judaism). And the Jews, who do have the law (of Judaism), will be judged by that law (of Judaism) when they fail to obey it. For merely listening to the law (of Judaism) doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law (of Judaism) that makes us right in his sight. Even Gentiles, who do not have the law (of Judaism), show that they know the law (of Judaism) when they instinctively obey it (enforced by our governments), even without having heard it. (because instinctively known human law was added to the law of Judaism) They demonstrate that the law (of Judaism) is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life (whether they did what they knew to be right or not). (Romans 2:12-16 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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expos4ever

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This passage is definitive evidence that what Paul is referring to with his use of the word "law" alone is the law of Judaism in general with its added human law that humans can agree to without knowing God's word through the Prophets like Moses.
I can pretty much guarantee that (a) no reputable scholar of any stripe, perhaps even an Adventist scholar, holds this strange interpretation of what Paul means by "law" in Romans 2; (b) no other Adventists in this forum will agree with you on this.

Here is part of the chapter:

here will be tribulation and distress [g]for every soul of mankind who does evil, [h]for the Jew first and also [i]for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.12 For all who have sinned [j]without the Law will also perish [k]without the Law, and all who have sinned [l]under the Law will be judged [m]by the Law;

Paul is exploring the Jew-Gentile distinction here. And what marks out the Jew as different from the Gentile? Obviously the Law of Moses! Hence Paul says something in verse 12 about the Gentiles (they are the ones "without the Law") and then says something about Jews (they are the ones that are "under" the Law).

For whatever purposes, you are superimposing the belief that the "law" here does not refer to the Law of Moses, but instead refers to a man-made "law of Judaism".

And yet there is no reason to believe such a thing and plenty of reasons to believe that "Law" here in these verses denotes the Law of Moses.
For example, humans know that defamation is damaging to the reputation of a person, but they defame the name of God by misusing His name through cursing all the time. What the passage says is that those who do not have God's "order" through the prophets like Moses will be judged by their own human law expressed in Judaism.
What does "their own human law expressed in Judaism" even mean? Are you simply assuming that this mysterious "law of Judaism" applies to all humanity? What evidence do you have for this belief?

If you are saying that all humans, even those who are not under the Law of Moses, have an inner sense of what's right and wrong, then I would agree with you. But that does not justify your taking texts which clearly are talking about the Law of Moses and rewriting them so that they are now talking about this inner moral sense that all humans arguably possess.

Now there is one reference to "law" in Romans 2 that is clearly not a reference to the Law of Moses. And it comes here:

For when Gentiles who do not have [q]the Law [r]instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having [s]the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Here, Paul says that Gentiles, who are not under the Law of Moses, have a mysterious access to the principles that underlie the law via their consciences. Fine, I have just affirmed that, indeed, all humans know right from wrong through their consciences. But that does not justify your strange moves of rewriting Pauline references to "the Law" throughout the New Testament - when it is otherwise clear from context that these are indeed references to the Law of Moses - so that they become references to this "law of Judaism".
 
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Leaf473

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Paul didn't set us free from any law, he didn't have the authority.
Hi freeinhim3, nice to meet you :heart:

That's true :) It's kind of like Who wrote the book of Romans? You could say that Paul wrote it, or you could say that God wrote it, or you could say that Paul was the human agent through whom God's message was given.

Have a good one!
 
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freeinhim3

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Hi freeinhim3, nice to meet you :heart:

That's true :) It's kind of like Who wrote the book of Romans? You could say that Paul wrote it, or you could say that God wrote it, or you could say that Paul was the human agent through whom God's message was given.

Have a good one!
Or you could say Tertius wrote it! (Rom16:22) I like your statement Paul was the human agent through whom God's message was given. Thank you for the warm welcome. God bless
 
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Giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation; Col 1:12-15
These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” And He opened their understanding...Luke 24:43-45
Whoever has the Son has life; 1 John 5:12
The Son of God has come and has given us understanding.... 1 John 5:20
Brother, happy Sabbath, starting this Friday June 2, 2023 at 12:40 pm EDT! Jesus has given us understanding through Paul, but most of us have not understood Paul's message because our sinful human nature wants the opposite of Paul's message. ...

Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand (they failed to obey all of God's Ten Commandments). But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. For the Lord is the Spirit (Jesus is the Spirit )

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
I hear you, sinful humans stumbled seeking justification by the works of the law. Rom 3:20
For if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain. Gal 2:21
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. Gal 2:15
Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture: “Behold, I lay in Zion a chief cornerstone, elect, precious;
and he that believes in Him will never be disappointed." 1 Peter 2:4-6
 
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