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From what did Jesus save us?

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verismo

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This is directed to those who are not OSAS believers. Not that they are not welcome, but their answer to this question could be already assumed.

In a Theology that is not OSAS, say Catholic, or various Protestant denominations, where a Christian can go to Hell for committing sin, what did Jesus save you from?

In other words:

If we can still commit a sin, and it is imputed to us as sin: He did not save us from sin.

If we can still be sent to Hell for having committed that sin: He saved us from neither that sin, or Hell as a punishment for sin.

So, what did He do for us, other than open Heaven as a possibility?
 

depthdeception

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verismo said:
In a Theology that is not OSAS, say Catholic, or various Protestant denominations, where a Christian can go to Hell for committing sin, what did Jesus save you from?

Sin is no more than separating oneself from God. The Atonement offered in Christ frees us from the power of sin so that we need not continue in our self-destructive separation tactics. In Christ, we are able to freely relate ourselves to God and overcome the sinful nature which seeks to separate itself (and its bearer) from God.

If we can still commit a sin, and it is imputed to us as sin: He did not save us from sin.

We are saved from the power of sin. IN Christ, we are no longer slaves to the sinful nature, but are heirs in Christ to the promise of eternal life. As we are human and willed creatures, we can at any time reject this promise and willfully separate ourselves from God. However, this need not happen after regeneration.

So, what did He do for us, other than open Heaven as a possibility?

What did Christ do? More than we could do ourselves, which is to break the power of the sinful nature which wars in the hearts of all humans. In Christ, we as humans can now freely relate and unite ourselves to God without fear in full freedom from sin.
 
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apocatastasis

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hi depthdeception...

What did Christ do? More than we could do ourselves, which is to break the power of the sinful nature which wars in the hearts of all humans.

When we do in fact yield to the sinful nature, do we then have to reconnect to Christ in order to break the power of sin?
 
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depthdeception

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apocatastasis said:
When we do in fact yield to the sinful nature, do we then have to reconnect to Christ in order to break the power of sin?

If you mean, do we need to get "saved" all over again, no. Reconnect, yes. Our relationship with Christ is similar to a marriage relationship. Just because I do something wrong to my wife does not mean that our marriage is ruined. Our relationship is strained, to be sure, but I do not have to "remarry" her all over again. Rather, I go to her, asking for forgiveness, that the rift I have created through my sin against her might be mended. Now obviously, if I continue to purposefully do the things that I know will hurt her and cause her pain, I unnessarily strain the relationship. If I continue on long enough, there is a definite potential that I will drive her away and cause a permanent separation. However, if I daily examine myself and seek to do the things that please my wife and express my genuine love for her in all I do, say, and think, our relationship will be sound, regardless of my occassional stupidities.

I think the same thing is true of our relationship with Christ.
 
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notinvain

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Christ saved us from a condemned lifesyle, one which is in and out of sin. Paul made it clear that living such a lifestlye is putred and when someone is in Christ and is being led by Christ, he no longer has to live that old lifestyle.

When people preach that sin is to be expected in the life of a Christian (outside of God's perfecting our Character) they are shorting God's ability to keep us holy and free from the sinful acts of the sinful nature.

That is what Christ came here to do, to save us from the control of the sinful nature and to allow us to overcome temptation so that we may stand firm and know that in Christ we can live as righteous men waiting for the gift of eternal life.
 
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A

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verismo said:
This is directed to those who are not OSAS believers. Not that they are not welcome, but their answer to this question could be already assumed.

In a Theology that is not OSAS, say Catholic, or various Protestant denominations, where a Christian can go to Hell for committing sin, what did Jesus save you from?

In other words:

If we can still commit a sin, and it is imputed to us as sin: He did not save us from sin.

If we can still be sent to Hell for having committed that sin: He saved us from neither that sin, or Hell as a punishment for sin.

So, what did He do for us, other than open Heaven as a possibility?


John 12, 47 is clear.
If one is a real christian then he is at least one of John 12, 47.
These christians cannot be to hell........
If one is not christian then he commits a sin so that he goes to hell.

Really Jesus has come because of to expiate Adam sin and I think
that John 2, 4 means this.


:angel: :angel:
 
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Knee V

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He saved us from the curse of sin. "The wages of sin is death". And to quote the liturgy of St John Chrysostom, "O Christ our God, trampling down death by death".

Also note that part of Adam's curse was that the ground would yield thorns and thistles. And note what Christ wore on his head as he was beaten and killed: a crown of thorns.

All the curse that resulted from sin, Christ took upon Himself.
 
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Hedgehog

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I guess you could say one of the things he saved us from is darkness and He shed the light.
Hebrews had misinterpreted the law, believing it to be followed carnally instead of spiritually.... had believed they were chosen simply by race.... Jesus shed the light that it was faithful people who were the chosen and that the law is spiritual, not earthly.
We now can see God's truth.
 
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Ben johnson

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Jesus is the "propitiation for sin". For the SAVED, and for the REST of the whole world. 1Jn2:2 That we-saved CAN sin (possibility), screams the fact that God is RESISTIBLE. Our difference is on the DEGREE of resistibility.

Before sinning, one has the choice --- to sin, or by His power to resist sin. It clearly is not God's will for us to sin --- He is faithful and provides a way to RESIST sinning. 1Cor10:13 After sinning --- the same choice still persists: to sin a SECOND time, or to REPENT (and strive, by drawing closer to Him, not-to-sin).

It is "CONTINUAL SIN" that does us in; for "continual sin" is by definition "unrepentance", and "repentance" is by definition "abiding in Him".
If we can still commit a sin, and it is imputed to us as sin: He did not save us from sin.
It is not imputed to us as sin, if we are "IN CHRIST".

Which is, identically, "repentant, forgiven, not walking-in-sin".

If we can still be sent to Hell for having committed that sin: He saved us from neither that sin, or Hell as a punishment for sin.
Would you agree that without repentance there is not forgiveness of sins? Presuming that you do --- at least, as far as BEFORE we're saved --- what is it about "salvation" that would CHANGE that concept?

If before salvation unrepentance prevents forgiveness of our sins, then what makes you think that unrepentance AFTER salvation would not equally prevent forgiveness of sins? Look at this:

"If WE continue sinning willfully after having received KNOWLEDGE ('epignosis' saved-knowledge) of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire which consumes the adversaries." Heb10:26

If WE, the SAVED. This is precisely what I said, isn't it? The idea of "occasionally sinning, but abiding in Christ AND in repentance" --- as opposed to "returning to continual sin".

And in case someone might propose, "but one who sins CONTINUALLY was never truly saved in the first place!" --- kindly explain what is happening in verse 29; here is one who tramples Jesus, scorns the blood, and insults the Spirit --- but he WAS SANCTIFIED!!!

Know any way for the "unsaved", to EVER have been "sanctified"?

I certainly don't...
 
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Free Gracer

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Hi Ben,

You have a leg up on the Reformed interpretation of the warning passages, as you see that they are to those who are saved, not those who are merely professors.

Not that you advocate this, but if anyone says there are only two possibilities here, they present a false dilemma. In my opinion, it is neither/nor here.

Yes, those in view are presently regenerate.

What is going on in this passage? What is the warning for?

Let me quote a Prof. from DTS, who taught New Testament and Greek for 27 years:

Heb 10:28-29:

------------
Under the Old Covenant, if an Israelite spurned the Mosaic Law and at least "two or three witnesses" verified his actions, he was put to death. This being true, the author then argued from the lesser to the greater. If defiance of an inferior covenant could bring such retributionm what about defiance of the New Covenant which, as he had made clear, is far superior? The answer can only be that the punishment would be substantially greater in such a case.

In order to sho what this is so, the writer then placed defection form the faith in the harshest possible light. An apostate form the New Covenant "has trampled the Son of God underfoot" and "has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant" (c.f. "blood of the eternal covenant," 13:20) "that sanctified him".

The authors whole point lies in the seriousness of the act. To treat the blood of the covenant (which actually sanctifies believers) as though it were an "unholy" (koinon, "common") thing and to renounce its efficacy (this is what they were doing in relation to retreating to the old covenant), is to commit a sin so heinous as to dwarf the fatal infractions of the Old Covenant. To this, an apostate adds the offense of insulting "the Spirit of grace" who originally wooed him to faith in Christ. This kind of spiritual rebellion clearly calls for a much worse punisment than the capital penalty that was inflicted under the Mosaic setup.

But again the writer was not thinking of hell. Many forms of divine retribution can fall on a human life which are worse than immediate death. In fact, Jeremiah made just such a complaint about the punishment inflicted on Jerusalem (Lam. 4:6, 9). One might think also of King Saul, whose last days were burdened with such mental and emotional turmoil that death itself was a kind of release.

10:30-31

No one should regard sucha warning as an idle threat. God Himself has claimed the right to take vengeance and to "JUDGE HIS PEOPLE"! In saying this, the author quoted twice from Deuteronomy (32:35-36), a chapter whcih most VIVIDLY evokes the picture of God's people suffering His retributive judgements (cf. esp. Deut. 32:19-27). Those familiar with this text, as well as other descriptions of God's wrath against "HIS PEOPLE" agree: it is a freadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

-------------

It is indeed a false dilemma to suppose that this verse is of those who are mere professors or those who go to hell.

A third option goes well with the context and the rest of Scripture:

1) At the moment of punctilliar faith in Christ for the purposeful reception of eternal life, one is eternally secure. (This is the message of Christ: you shall never hunger, thirst, perish, etc)

2) In sanctification, obedience is not optional. God will discipline "His people" severely for their apostasies, unfaithfulness, etc. He will TEMPORALLY disicpline them, and eternally will show His displeasure with them by their loss or priveledge, role, rewards, and the greatest of honor and glory in the kingdom.

"When we are unfaithful, God remains faithful, He cannot disown Himself"

God is faithful to make good on His promises to the ones in whom He has given etenral life: He promises that they shall never hunger, never thirst, and never perish. He promises that they shall not come into condemnation in hell, and that no one can pluch them out of His hand. These promises God is faithful to!

Antonio
 
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Ben johnson

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FreeGracer said:
But again the writer was not thinking of hell. Many forms of divine retribution can fall on a human life which are worse than immediate death. In fact, Jeremiah made just such a complaint about the punishment inflicted on Jerusalem (Lam. 4:6, 9). One might think also of King Saul, whose last days were burdened with such mental and emotional turmoil that death itself was a kind of release.
I disagree --- in stating "no longer sacrifice for sins", the Cross is removed from the "continuing-sinner's perspective". And there is salvation in no other way.

Further, "certain expectation of judgment and fury of fire that CONSUMES the adversary", cannot mean anything but Gehenna (firey Hell).
2) In sanctification, obedience is not optional.
Nicely stated! Heb5:9
God will discipline "His people" severely for their apostasies, unfaithfulness, etc. He will TEMPORALLY discipline them, and eternally will show His displeasure with them by their loss or priveledge, role, rewards, and the greatest of honor and glory in the kingdom.
Let's examine the idea of "lose REWARDS but not salvation ITSELF".

In Heb12, "If is for discipline that you endure; God disciplines you as sons. But if you are WITHOUT discipline (refuse Him), then you are illegitimate and NOT SONS!

"When we are unfaithful, God remains faithful, He cannot disown Himself"
The context of this passage, which is 2Tim2:11-13, plainly presents two opposing positions:

1. If we died with Him (Rm6:1-4), we shall live with Him; Endure in Him, reign with Him.
2. If we DENY Him He will deny US (and we shall NOT live nor reign with Him!)
2b. If we are FAITHLESS, yet He remains faithful --- even though we PERISH!

There is no such thing as "faithless-saved", there is no "denied-before-God-SAVED". There is only "died-with-Him and live-with-Him". Christianity is sorta like being pregnant --- one cannot be "a LITTLE pregnant", or "SORT of pregnant". So too, one is SAVED (died with Christ, and raised with Him), or lost.
God is faithful to make good on His promises to the ones in whom He has given eternal life: He promises that they shall never hunger, never thirst, and never perish. He promises that they shall not come into condemnation in hell, and that no one can pluck them out of His hand. These promises God is faithful to!
Notice that all of these carry the condition of, "IN CHRIST". Which is, "BELIEF", And "ABIDING".

Look at this: "I am the true vine; any branch IN ME that does not bear fruit, He takes away. Abide in Me, and I (will abide) in you. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in Him, bears much fruit; apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does NOT abide in Me, he is cast off as a branch ...dries and is thrown into the fire." Jn15

The ability to forfeit salvation, recognizes the true nature OF salvation; it is "Christ in you", and "you in Christ". Paul charges us to "EXAMINE ourselves to see if we are (still) IN Christ". 2Cor13:5. If not, we are "adokimos-unapproved" (rejected).

...then Paul uses the SAME WORD in regards to himself: "I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest, after I have preached to others, I MYSELF should be adokimos-unapproved". 1Cor9:27
 
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Free Gracer

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A Punishment Worse Than Death

Hebrews 10:26-31

by Bob Wilkin

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, 'Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,' says the Lord. And again, 'The Lord will judge His people.' It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."



This passage is one of the strongest warning passages in Scripture. It is filled with ominous terms like fearful (twice), judgment, judge, fiery indignation, devouring the adversaries, vengeance, and worse punishment.

Some People (often called Arminians) feel that this passage is threatening Christians with loss of salvation. Others (often called Calvinists) feel that professing, but not genuine, believers are being threatened with hell, proving that they were never saved in the first place. However, neither of these views harmonizes with the context or with the rest of the NT, as will now be shown. Eternal Condemnation Is Not in View



There are two proofs that eternal condemnation is not being threatened here: Genuine Believers Are In View And They Can't Experience Eternal Condemnation

The Book of Hebrews in general is addressed to genuine believers. See, for example, 3:1, "Therefore, holy brethren partakers of the heavenly calling. . ." See also 6:4-6.



The larger context of chapter 10 also strongly asserts that genuine believers are being addressed. In vv 1-18 the author speaks of the forgiveness of sins. In vv 19-20 he calls the readers "brethren," people who have "boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus" and who have Jesus Christ as their High Priest.

The immediate context of this passage says that those being addressed have already been sanctified (v 29)! Only believers have been sanctified (cf. 10:10, 14). In addition, they are called "His people" (v 30)--something only true of believers.

Many passages assert that believers are eternally secure. See, for example, John 3:18; 4:14; 5:24; 6:47; 10:28-29; Rom 8:38-39. See also Hebrews 10:14, 17-18. Thus once we establish that genuine believers are in view, we can be sure that hell is not under discussion. No Words for Hell Mentioned

There is no reference here to "the lake of fire," "Gehenna," "hell," "unquenchable fire," "eternal torment," or any terms commonly associated with eternal condemnation. Take a moment and reread the passage and you will see what I mean.



Some might wonder about "fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries" (v27) and "worse punishment" (v29). The latter expression is discussed below. The former merely refers to God's zeal in judging those who oppose Him (which can certainly include believers). We might translate the phrase in question, "the fire of zeal which will devour the adversaries." Fire is a common biblical metaphor for temporal judgment. Only when the context clearly specifies eternal burning does fire in Scripture refer to hell. There is no such indication here. Temporal Judgment Is Being Threatened



There are two lines of evidence which show that temporal judgment is in view: Genuine Believers in View

As shown above, genuine believers are in view and believers cannot experience eternal condemnation. Thus, whatever the judgment is, it must either refer to the Judgment Seat of Christ, which this passage clearly does not, or to some judgment here and now.

Many Temporal Judgments Are Worse Than Death

Verse 29 speaks of a punishment worse than the death penalty which was given under the Law of Moses (v 28). There are many temporal judgments worse than immediate death. Lingering emotional, spiritual, and physical pain (which may well culminate in premature death) can be much worse than immediate death.



The point of comparison is with temporal, not eternal, judgment. Even believers were subject to the death penalty under the Law of Moses. For example, but for God's grace, David would have been stoned for committing adultery with Bathsheeba and for having her husband killed (2 Sam 12:13). If the thing used for comparison is temporal in nature, we would expect that the punishment to which it is compared would be as well. Don't Defect

This passage does not deal with moral failure. Rather it deals with doctrinal defection and its terrible temporal consequences. Those who apostatize, who willfully turn their back on Christ and deny the atoning power of His blood, will experience punishment worse than death.



Doctrinal defection is something which terrifies me. I take great care to guard against it. May we all remember the words of the author of the Book of Hebrews concerning apostasy:

  • "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
 
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