Freewill?

[elman]

I understand and I am not saying it really means the freedom to do anything we want either.

It does mean to be able to do the things we do freely, meaning no pressure to do a certian thing and no threats of penalty for not doing a certian thing. When pressure is applied and threats of punishment levied the choices are no longer free but come at a price.

I don't think we make any choices without influences of all kinds from many different directions. There are always consequences to our choices and we never escape that.

 

[elman]

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit, both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart."

How do explain that then?

The defintion is not from God, not scripture, and Heb 4:12 does not disagree with Ezekiel 18.

 

[ChasClean]

The sense in which our choice is an expression of our free will is when we chose to love others and when we chose to not love others.

Do you really believe that? Do you really think we are on any type of a level playing field when it comes to the ability to chose to love?

A child born in the tenth generation of child abusers. Sexually, physically, and spiritually abused all of his childhood. Compared to a child born in a loving, real Christian home, taught to serve others all of his childhood.

Now, are they on a level playing field? Do they, in any way, have the same capacity to chose to love?

Of course there are a very few exceptions to almost any rule. There are those few who have come from hellacious circumstances and over come. That’s why they are called exceptions. Those few exceptions don’t change the truth that our personhood (including the ability to love) is almost completely formed by our original genetic make up (over which we had no choice) and our first few years of life (over which we had no choice).

Let’s get over it. Our eternal destiny is in no way based upon obtaining a certain level of righteousness or the ability to make the right choices. It is based solely on the work of Jesus.

 

[elman]

Quote:

I’m not the one who misunderstands Paul Elman, Paul plainly says it is no longer I that sinneth but sin that dwelleth in me.

Is sin something I do or God does or is it a separate being and entity from me and God?

Quote:
Then why did Paul say faith without love is meaningless?

Well I don’t know of any scripture that states faith without love is meaningless.

1 Cor 13
The closes one I could find is this.

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

That is the one.

But will answer your question anyway.

Because your faith is meaningless, we do not live and love because of our faith but because of the faith of Jesus Christ. Like Paul said you can have all the faith you want but if you do not have LOVE your faith is nothing.

That is what it says. James says it this way, faith without works is dead. John says without love you are not a child of God who is love.



Quote:
Why did Paul say the only thing that matters is faith working itself out in love? You believe it is not us that sins, but God that sins?

Nonsense Elman, point out where I said anything like God is the one that sins.

Well you said it was not us. Who is it then?




Quote:
If not, who do you believe is the sinner?

We are, but not by choice as Paul explains Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

So we are the sinner but we have no choice, so how did we get to be the sinner? Did God create us as a sinner?

Let me ask you this brother, when you sin do you do so willfully? Or do you sin against you own will?

I chose to sin or it is not sin. It is against the will of God. God is not the one doing the sinning.
Quote:

We have a basic disagreement over the nature of God. I see God as haveing free will but always chosing to be loving and you seem to see God as having free will and sometimes chosing to be evil but you think we do not have free will so we were created as robots. Do I have it right?

No you have it backwards, it is I that believes God has free will and you are the one who places limits on His will.

I don't say God is unable to create being with the ability to love. You do.

It is Gods will that none should perish, and yet you say Gods will is limited because of our will.

I say God gives us the ability to chose to do things agains His will. That is sin. God never makes us do things against His will. That makes no sense.

You are saying our free will is greater then Gods will which is the only will which is totally free.

I am saying the source of our ability to love is from God so it is not greater than God's will but it is a grant of power from God than allows me to be a prodical son if I chose to be one.

Quote:
Why to you think God created you if you do not have the ability to love or not love?

To be made into His image so that I would know HOW TO LOVE.

What is the point in knowing how to love if you are unable to love? We all know how to love. Jesus taught us that in the parable of the Good Samritan. That is what makes us different from the other creations

You seem to think man knows how to love with God and yet God is love.

God being loving does not limit His ability create beings who are also loving and that is what He did.

Quote:
Obviously the I is in reference to himself.

As to God not creating man with the law of sin in His members read.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,


Quote:
You did not respond to what I said.
So you are making God responsible for our sin.

I did answer it and will repeat the answer.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So you believe God is responsible for our sin.

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
What you believe is that you subjected your own self in unbelief and vanity.
When did we become God to be able to do such a thing.

We did not be come God, but like God we were created with the ability to love and the knowledge of what it means to love and that is how we were created in the image of God. Our being evil is not in the image of God because God is not evil.

Quote:
Stay under the judgment of the law then brother.
And ever time you sin against your will you will be in judgment of that law.


Quote:
No I chose to stay under the grace and forgiveness of a good and loving God, not an evil one that is responsible for my sin.

Without knowing evil how are you ever going to be made in the image and likeness of God who knows both good and evil?

We do not what it is to be unloving and we all chose that which is evil.

What you are saying ( though you are saying it though ignorance) is that you willfully sin.

There is no sin if it is not willful. If God forces me to act in a certain way as in a robot. That is not the robots sin if it is unloving but God's.

Thus placing yourself under the judgment of the law and His sacrifice becomes nil and void.

The sacrifice was not for me doing things I had no control over and was not responsible for. The sacrifice was for the unloving action I chose to do.

Are you sure you want to go down that road.

There is not choice if God is to be good and loving and not evil.

Quote:

Paul is saying that he is not responsible for his sin but points out to us that there is a law of sin in our members that is responsible for the sins we commit.

You never seem to respond to who the members are if they are not me.


Quote:
Gobbelgook-I am not responsible but my member are. Are my members me or someone else?

It is not our members that sin, but the law of sin in our members that does, big difference.

How did the law of sin get there?




Quote:

Yep God created man with the law of sin in His members, For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

So you return to the theam of an evil God.

Quote:
We are in disagreement about God being evil. Why did God create us?

Where do you keep coming up with such nonsense?
I have never stated anything about God being evil.

That is exactly what you just said above. God put the law of sin in my members and I am not able to sin, it is my members that sin, because God put the law of sin in them.

This is now the second time in this post you have misrepresented what I have said.

No and I have not misrepresented what you said the first time either.

Either come up with the quote where I have said any such nonsense or quite making such stupid statements about what I believe.

Read what you just said to me above. Looking at what you said, who is responsbile for my sinning? Your answer was the law of sin in my members. Who put the law of sin in my members? You said God.

God created us to be made in His image and likeness, God knows the difference between good and evil, so unless we to come to understand the difference between good and evil how can we ever be made in His image and likeness.

We can't and we do know the difference. Good is being loving and evil is being unloving.

Here in layman terms is the difference between good and evil.
God is good, we are evil.

Only if we have the ability to sin or not sin. Not if God controls our sinning and not sinning.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

As I said this about weather disasters and disasters from war. It is not about you and I chosing to be loving or unloving. If it is this about you and I chosing to be loving or unloving it is not from God because God is good and God is loving.



Quote:
Well if Paul’s members were controlled by the law of sin, what do you think?


Quote:
I think we are responsible for allowing our members to be controlled by sin, and not God.



Well you can think what you want, but it was God who subjected the creation to vanity not willingly. What was in the earth first the light or the darkness?



Quote:
Quote:
Paul refused to blame himself for missing the mark (sinning) brother because he knew all about the old man nature in all of us.


Quote:
And Paul told us to kill that old man of sin.

Agreed, but why? Because the old man of sin keeps one in bondage, even against ones will.

If I am able to kill it, I am not in bondage to the extent you suggest.



Quote:
The problem you are having Elman is you think you live by your faith and it is your faith that causes you to love. But it is not our faith that we live by but the faith of Jesus Christ.


Quote:
The problem I am having is understanding why I should worship an evil God who created me without the ability to love. God created me with the ability to love. That is the reason He created me in order to have someone to love and someone who can respond to His love. He did not create robots.

Elman, no one has yet ever said that we are robots, except you.

If I have no choice and must do as God has programed me how do you describe that if it is not a robot?

Man has a will, so this does not make him a robot, we agree on this right?

Yes

Where we disagree is that you say mans will is free even though he is in bondage to the law of sin in his members.

If our will is not free to chose to love or not love, in what way does our will exist?

A law must be obeyed until a greater law comes into effect.

Take a balloon and let is go, what happens? It falls to the ground.
Why? Because the law of gravity
Now take the same balloon and fill it with helium, what happens? It rises.
Why? Because a greater law has come into effect.

Now apply that same law to man and what do you get?
The law of sin will always cause man to fall.
But put Christ in man and man rises.
Why? Because the law of sin is superceded by the law of liberty in Christ.
In Adam all die, in Christ all are made alive.

Finish the verse. In Adam all die because all sin and fall short of the glory of God. But those who turn to Christ and Righetousness whall live and not die. In Christ all who love are made alive because they are forgiven for their failure to love as God loves and created them to love. The wicked however are not in Christ and are not therefore made alive.

 

[martymonster]

The defintion is not from God, not scripture, and Heb 4:12 does not disagree with Ezekiel 18.

The top example was only to point out the meaning of the word, but to say that it is not from God only makes you opinion of scripture null and void as it was men who translated the verses that you a using (tying to use) to prove your point!

As for the bottom reference, it's taken straight from Hebrews, and it proves that the soul and the spirit are not the same thing and does disprove Eze to mean what you think it means!

another way of stating that verse is merely to say, the person who sins they shall die!

if you continue to argue that it's not now is purely stubbornness!

 

[Soul Searcher]

I think there is a lot of confusion about what soul actually means. In the begining of the bible we can clearly see that soul refers to a creature. At times it is used in tha same way as spirit or as the figurative usage of heart would be used.

However when it is said that the soul who sins will die this seems to be talking about the person and not the spirit of the person, basically what is happening is the spirit leaves that person/soul and when that happens the body dies and is no longer a living soul as the spirit is what gives life to the body and makes it a living soul.

The OT also tells us that when this happens the spirit returns to God who gave it. There does not seem to be any exception as to wether it was the spirit of a good man or a wicked man, believer or non man or beast they all share one breath/spirit and that spirit comes from and returns to God upon physical death.

 

[martymonster]

I think the issue of what the bible calls the "spirit" warrants further investigation, as it could make or break a doctrine!

Soul definitely only refers to the heart and mind of a person!

 

[martymonster]

No but are you saying these fragments are not from God?

At which point did I ever say that about any scripture?

Never ever in a million years will you hear that from Me!

Your interpretation of Scripture is not from God, that much I'm sure of!

Your interpretation of scripture is totally carnal, and to be carnally minded is death.

Even Jesus's words are death in you hands!

 

[Soul Searcher]

I think the issue of what the bible calls the "spirit" warrants further investigation, as it could make or break a doctrine!

Soul definitely only refers to the heart and mind of a person!

Here is what BDB and Thayer have to say about the words that seem to be most often translated as soul and spirit.

Soul
nephesh
BDB Definition:
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions
1g) activity of mind
1g1) dubious
1h) activity of the will
1h1) dubious
1i) activity of the character
1i1) dubious

Spirit
rûach
BDB Definition:
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
1a) breath
1b) wind
1b1) of heaven
1b2) quarter (of wind), side
1b3) breath of air
1b4) air, gas
1b5) vain, empty thing
1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
1c2) courage
1c3) temper, anger
1c4) impatience, patience
1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
1c7) prophetic spirit
1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God’s spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1e1) desire
1e2) sorrow, trouble
1f) spirit
1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts
1f2) rarely of the will
1f3) as seat especially of moral character
1g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1g1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
1g2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
1g3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
1g4) as endowing men with various gifts
1g5) as energy of life
1g6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory
1g7) never referred to as a depersonalized force


In the Greek the spirit and the soul overlap

Soul
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
Thayer Definition:
1) breath
1a) the breath of life
1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
1a1a) of animals
1a1b) of men
1b) life
1c) that in which there is life
1c1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

Spirit
pneuma
Thayer Definition:
1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the \\Holy\\ Spirit)
1b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of \\Truth\\)
1c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
3c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
5a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
5b) breath of nostrils or mouth

 

[martymonster]

Here is what BDB and Thayer have to say about the words that seem to be most often translated as soul and spirit.

Soul
nephesh
BDB Definition:
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions
1g) activity of mind
1g1) dubious
1h) activity of the will
1h1) dubious
1i) activity of the character
1i1) dubious

Spirit
rûach
BDB Definition:
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
1a) breath
1b) wind
1b1) of heaven
1b2) quarter (of wind), side
1b3) breath of air
1b4) air, gas
1b5) vain, empty thing
1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
1c2) courage
1c3) temper, anger
1c4) impatience, patience
1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
1c7) prophetic spirit
1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God’s spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1e1) desire
1e2) sorrow, trouble
1f) spirit
1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts
1f2) rarely of the will
1f3) as seat especially of moral character
1g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1g1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
1g2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
1g3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
1g4) as endowing men with various gifts
1g5) as energy of life
1g6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory
1g7) never referred to as a depersonalized force


In the Greek the spirit and the soul overlap

Soul
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
Thayer Definition:
1) breath
1a) the breath of life
1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
1a1a) of animals
1a1b) of men
1b) life
1c) that in which there is life
1c1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

Spirit
pneuma
Thayer Definition:
1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the \\Holy\\ Spirit)
1b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of \\Truth\\)
1c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
3c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
5a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
5b) breath of nostrils or mouth

My favorite thing about that is how one of the definitions for nephesh is that it actually means "Mortal"

It really makes an incredible mockery of the phrase,

"Immortal Soul"

 

[Soul Searcher]

My favorite thing about that is how one of the definitions for nephesh is that it actually means "Mortal"

It really makes an incredible mockery of the phrase,

"Immortal Soul"

Yep.. It seems there is a lot more Greek and Roman influence in traditional beliefs than most would like to admit.

 

[hairettic]

I always learn so much when I hang out down here!

 

[Benoni]

That is because we are always seeking; we are asking and we are knocking. We may have our views and opinions but we know God's Word is a present truth; not a stagnant cesspool.

2 Peter 1:12
Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

Present truth or along side the truth; as God reveals a truth or revelation you move with it. Like the manna in the wilderness; every day God’s people must gather and eat today’s manna; yesterdays manna became rotten and it stunk.

 

[Soul Searcher]

The Essene Gospel

8. As ye keep the holy Law of Love, which I have given unto you, so shall the Truth be revealed more and more unto you, and the Spirit of Truth which cometh from above shall guide you, albeit through many wanderings, into all Truth, even as the fiery cloud guided the children of Israel through the wilderness.

9. Be faithful to the light ye have, till a higher light is given to you. Seek more light, and ye shall have abundantly; rest not, till ye find.

10. God giveth you all Truth, as a ladder with many steps, for the salvation and perfection of the soul, and the truth which seemeth to day, ye will abandon for the higher truth of the morrow. Press ye unto Perfection.

 

[Pneuma3]

Quote:
We are, but not by choice as Paul explains Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

So we are the sinner but we have no choice, so how did we get to be the sinner? Did God create us as a sinner?

God created us with the law of sin in our members a carnal minded natural man. That should tell you something. You would have the spiritual first then the natural which we both know goes against scripture.
Quote:
Let me ask you this brother, when you sin do you do so willfully? Or do you sin against you own will?

I chose to sin or it is not sin. It is against the will of God. God is not the one doing the sinning.

Let’s get something straight first here brother, I believe man has a will and by that will makes a choice, what I deny is that it is a free will choice, a choice without any constraints.
Now you say you chose to sin against Gods will. Because you use your will to choose sin over what God said there is no more sacrifice for your sin, therefore you come under the judgment of the law.
But like Paul said he sinned against his will, because the law of sin in his members brought him into CAPTIVITY he never came under the judgment of the law but continued to walk in a state of grace.
Also unregenerated man does not have a choice only a child of God is given a choice.
The problem with most is that they believe all men have a choice whether unregenerated or a child of God. They believe the unregenerated man can make a choice to be saved or not to be saved, but salvation is the providence of Gods alone.
An unregenerated man is one who is dead, and we know that those who are dead have no choice. Yet what you’re saying is the dead must make a choice. This goes against all reason, go to any funeral and ask the dead there if they want to live, can they make a choice and live?



Quote:
No you have it backwards, it is I that believes God has free will and you are the one who places limits on His will.

I don't say God is unable to create being with the ability to love. You do.

Never said any such thing, you keep adding words of your own understanding to what I say.
Let me do the same thing and maybe you’ll get the picture.
You believe God is going to annihilate or eternally torment man.
Now you would not want me to say you said God is a monster worse then Hitler. Get the picture?
So stop saying I said something I never said.
So as to man having the ability to love, yes I believe man has the ability to love.
Two words are translated love in the Greek, they are phileo and agape.
phileo means to have ardent affection and feeling.
Agape is Gods love, for God is agape/love.
Unregenerated man cannot have agape/love, only the child of God can have agape/love.
The only love unregenerated man knows anything about is phileo/love, for without Christ in their life they cannot know agape/love because God is agape/love.
So unregenerated man cannot know or have agape/love, and they cannot get agape/love by the power of their will or choice, for again the dead can make no choice one way or the other.
What it boils down to brother is you seem to believe the dead have free will to make a choice, and yet we both know the dead can do nothing.

Quote:
It is Gods will that none should perish, and yet you say Gods will is limited because of our will.

I say God gives us the ability to chose to do things agains His will. That is sin. God never makes us do things against His will. That makes no sense.

Yes God give the ability to His children to make a choice, but those who are yet dead in trespasses and sin have no ability to make any such choice.

Quote:
You are saying our free will is greater then Gods will which is the only will which is totally free.

I am saying the source of our ability to love is from God so it is not greater than God's will but it is a grant of power from God than allows me to be a prodical son if I chose to be one.

Again I do not have an argument against a child of God making a choice, one way or the other, my argument is against it being a free choice without constraints and that the ability to make a choice is given to the dead.



Quote:
You seem to think man knows how to love with God and yet God is love.

God being loving does not limit His ability create beings who are also loving and that is what He did.

No, that is what He is doing.





Quote:
I did answer it and will repeat the answer.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So you believe God is responsible for our sin.

No, not in the way you are meaning it.
And by the way the scripture does say God hath concluded them all in unbelief.
Is not unbelief sin?
Draw your own conclusions, as I have already discussed this more then once on this board, so if you want to see what I am speaking of read Bernie’s and my discussion on it in systematic universalism started by Bernie.




Quote:
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
What you believe is that you subjected your own self in unbelief and vanity.
When did we become God to be able to do such a thing.

We did not be come God, but like God we were created with the ability to love and the knowledge of what it means to love and that is how we were created in the image of God. Our being evil is not in the image of God because God is not evil.

That right our being evil is not the image and likeness of God, that again should tell you something. It should tell you that we need to be changed, if we already bear His image and likeness like so many teach we would have no need whatsoever to change. But again you can see this in Bernie’s and my discussion.



Quote:
What you are saying ( though you are saying it though ignorance) is that you willfully sin.

There is no sin if it is not willful. If God forces me to act in a certain way as in a robot. That is not the robots sin if it is unloving but God's.

Nonesense, Paul explains he was brought into CAPTIVITY by the law of sin in his members and could not do what he wanted to do.


Quote:
Thus placing yourself under the judgment of the law and His sacrifice becomes nil and void.

The sacrifice was not for me doing things I had no control over and was not responsible for. The sacrifice was for the unloving action I chose to do.

Nonesense His sacrifice was to do away with sin, and what do you suppose is the cause of sin? Hint the law of sin in our members.



Quote:
Quote:
Paul is saying that he is not responsible for his sin but points out to us that there is a law of sin in our members that is responsible for the sins we commit.

You never seem to respond to who the members are if they are not me.

That because the members are not what’s in question, what’s in question is the law of sin, in our members.


Quote:
Quote:
Yep God created man with the law of sin in His members, For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

So you return to the theam of an evil God.

Nonesense, is it evil of God to take that which is evil and make it in His image and likeness?
Do not the scriptures tell us God created evil?
Does this make God evil in your eyes?

Quote:
Where do you keep coming up with such nonsense?
I have never stated anything about God being evil.

That is exactly what you just said above. God put the law of sin in my members and I am not able to sin, it is my members that sin, because God put the law of sin in them.

When you understand God plan for all mankind Elman, you will understand why God created evil.
And stop saying I said God was evil, just because God created evil does not make Him evil.

Quote:
This is now the second time in this post you have misrepresented what I have said.

No and I have not misrepresented what you said the first time either.

So you say, well like I said you said God was a monster worse the Hitler.
Now did you really say God was a monster worse then Hitler or am I reading something into what you actually said?
Quote:
Either come up with the quote where I have said any such nonsense or quite making such stupid statements about what I believe.

Read what you just said to me above. Looking at what you said, who is responsbile for my sinning? Your answer was the law of sin in my members. Who put the law of sin in my members? You said God.

You said God was going to eternally torment or annihilate man, can we not see that you believe God is a monster worse then Hitler.

Give you head a shake brother, just because you do not understand what I am saying don’t infer I said something I did not say.

That’s inflammatory and as far as I know is against the rules of this board. So either come up with where I said God is evil or SHUT UP.

 

[Pneuma3]

Quote:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

As I said this about weather disasters and disasters from war. It is not about you and I chosing to be loving or unloving. If it is this about you and I chosing to be loving or unloving it is not from God because God is good and God is loving.

Nonsense, Evil
7451 ra` { rah}

from 7489; TWOT - 2191a,2191c

AV - evil 442, wickedness 59, wicked 25, mischief 21, hurt 20, bad 13, trouble 10, sore 9, affliction 6, ill 5, adversity 4, favoured 3, harm 3, naught 3, noisome 2, grievous 2, sad 2, misc 34; 663

GK - 8273 { [r'
} & 8274 { [r'
adj
1) bad, evil
1a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
1b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
1c) evil, displeasing
1d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
1e) bad (of value)
1f) worse than, worst (comparison)
1g) sad, unhappy
1h) evil (hurtful)
1i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
1j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1j1) in general, of persons, of thoughts
1j2) deeds, actions
n m
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
2a) evil, distress, adversity
2b) evil, injury, wrong
2c) evil (ethical)
n f
3) evil, misery, distress, injury
3a) evil, misery, distress
3b) evil, injury, wrong
3c) evil (ethical)[1]





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Agreed, but why? Because the old man of sin keeps one in bondage, even against ones will.

If I am able to kill it, I am not in bondage to the extent you suggest.

That’s the problem Elman you are not able to kill it, it is the law of liberty found only in Christ that does away with the law of sin in man.
You keep wanting to build the house though your own labor, but the scriptures state unless God builds the house you labor in vain. Stop putting your hand to the ark for that is the way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof are the ways of death. (coming again under the judgment of the law which is a ministration of death).


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A law must be obeyed until a greater law comes into effect.

Take a balloon and let is go, what happens? It falls to the ground.
Why? Because the law of gravity
Now take the same balloon and fill it with helium, what happens? It rises.
Why? Because a greater law has come into effect.

Now apply that same law to man and what do you get?
The law of sin will always cause man to fall.
But put Christ in man and man rises.
Why? Because the law of sin is superceded by the law of liberty in Christ.
In Adam all die, in Christ all are made alive.

Finish the verse. In Adam all die because all sin and fall short of the glory of God. But those who turn to Christ and Righetousness whall live and not die. In Christ all who love are made alive because they are forgiven for their failure to love as God loves and created them to love. The wicked however are not in Christ and are not therefore made alive.

While therein lies a problem then brother, either Jesus Christ is the saviour of the whole world like the scriptures proclaim or He is only the potential saviour of the whole world.
Make your choice, I already know He is the saviour of all.

[1]Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

 

[hairettic]

 

[Pneuma3]

I owe you an apology.

Does not matter if I took offence to what you wrote or not.

I over stepped in response and am sorry.

Hope your the forgiving type.

God bless.

 

[martymonster]

I owe you an apology.

Does not matter if I took offence to what you wrote or not.

I over stepped in response and am sorry.

Hope your the forgiving type.

God bless.

I did not see you over step anything Penuma3!

 

[ChasClean]

Elman,

Could you respond to post #298? Thanks