Freewill?

[Harlin]

Why did you turn?

Hello,

Because I realised that a life outside of God leading is not a peaceful happy one. I have tried both and prefer to lead a life where God is in control and not my selfish self.

God also saved me from tremendous injuries or perhaps death when I was involved in an accident, His loving protection of me even while I was living a life of disobedience showed me His incredible love and longsuffering. I love Him, because He first loved me.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[ChasClean]

Because I realised that a life outside of God leading is not a peaceful happy one

.

Where did this realization come from?

I have tried both and prefer to lead a life where God is in control and not my selfish self.

Where did this preference come from?

God also saved me from tremendous injuries or perhaps death when I was involved in an accident, His loving protection of me even while I was living a life of disobedience showed me His incredible love and longsuffering. I love Him, because He first loved me.

Yes. We are all disobedient. How was He able to show you? Why can't He show others?
Ephesians 2: 1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

We were spiritually dead. Dead. Dead people don’t make choices.


2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.


We were objects of wrath. Why aren’t we objects of wrath anymore?


4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.


Because of God. Not our right choice. God. He made us alive, when we were spiritually dead. Spiritually Dead people can in no way assist God Spiritually.


6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,


God did the raising. Our assistance or cooperation is a joke. How can the dead cooperate?


7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.


There are ages coming. Ages in which He will continue to show His unbelievable grace and kindness.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—


Nothing is of yourself. Not Even Your Faith. It is your faith only because it was first the Faith of Jesus Christ and He decided to give it to you. Just like your very breath, it could be taken away at any instant.

9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

If you wouldn't limit His salvation power to this one little age, then light would begin to shine brighter than ever on how powerful, magnificent and victorious He is.

 

[elman]

Actually, we learn obedience through suffering!

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loves he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives.
Heb 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chastens not?
Heb 12:8 But if you be without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then are you illegitimate children, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh who corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Notice that it was Jesus's obedience that makes us righteous not our own!

So according to Paul Adam and Eve couldn't have been obedient, because they hadn't leaned it yet!

I agree we cannot be perfetly obedient and our rightousness is from grace, not earned, but I do not agree obediance does not matter and we are not capable to being obediant to some extent. God makes up the difference-that is the grace and the forgiveness. If we are unable to be obediant or unable to sin then we have nothing to be forgiven for. I don't see Paul saying Adam and Eve did not chose to disobey God.

 

[elman]

So it does come back to freewill and choice not being the same thing!

Why are they not the same thing? We exercise our freewill by chosing to love our neighbor.

 

[elman]

This one?

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

That does not say we kill our own soul with our own sin.


It just saying if that the soul that sinneth shall die.

And Jesus explains how the soul that sinneth is to die.

He that findeth his life/soul shall lose it: and he that loseth his life/soul for my sake shall find it.

Ok you believe we sin and God kills our soul because we sin. I believe we kill our own soul with our own sin. The bottom line is the same. we sin and we die spiritually. Paul said it this way, the wages of sin is death. And we turn to righteousness and God recreates us spiritually and we live again. The point is we chose to sin and that is why we die and we do not die because of our father's choice to sin, but because of our own choice.

 

[elman]

=Pneuma3;30401735]How many times do I have to repeat what Paul said.


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Why not try to understand what he said rather than just repeat it? Paul did not say God was to blame for our sin. Paul said we are responsible for our sin.

I’m not the one who misunderstands Paul Elman, Paul plainly says it is no longer I that sinneth but sin that dwelleth in me.

Then why did Paul say faith without love is meaningless? Why did Paul say the only thing that matters is faith working itself out in love? You believe it is not us that sins, but God that sins? If not, who do you believe is the sinner? We have a basic disagreement over the nature of God. I see God as haveing free will but always chosing to be loving and you seem to see God as having free will and sometimes chosing to be evil but you think we do not have free will so we were created as robots. Do I have it right? Why to you think God created you if you do not have the ability to love or not love?

Obviously the I is in reference to himself.

As to God not creating man with the law of sin in His members read.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

You did not respond to what I said.
So you are making God responsible for our sin.

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It is no longer I that sinneth but sin that dwelleth in me.


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Whatever this means, sin is something that I do that kills my soul and for which the consequences is spiritual death.

Stay under the judgment of the law then brother.
And ever time you sin against your will you will be in judgment of that law.

No I chose to stay under the grace and forgiveness of a good and loving God, not an evil one that is responsible for my sin.

Quote:

Paul is saying that he is not responsible for his sin but points out to us that there is a law of sin in our members that is responsible for the sins we commit.

Gobbelgook-I am not responsible but my member are. Are my members me or someone else?

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Where did this law come from? God? Is God therefore responsbilbe for the sin in your members? Are you your members? Who is our members?

Yep God created man with the law of sin in His members, For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

We are in disagreement about God being evil. Why did God create us?


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Is it possible you have allowed your members to be controled by the law of sin?

Well if Paul’s members were controlled by the law of sin, what do you think?

I think we are responsible for allowing our members to be controlled by sin, and not God.


Quote:

Paul refused to blame himself for missing the mark (sinning) brother because he knew all about the old man nature in all of us.

And Paul told us to kill that old man of sin.

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I think it was the Phillipians that Paul encourage to live up to what they had attained and to others he said put on the mind of Christ. Can we live up to what we attained? Can we put on the mind of Christ? If we do is it Christ forcing us to live up to what we attained or is it Christ forcing us to up on the mind of Christ? Does Paul contradict himself and if not what does he mean by telling us our faith is worthless if we do not love?

The problem you are having Elman is you think you live by your faith and it is your faith that causes you to love. But it is not our faith that we live by but the faith of Jesus Christ.

The problem I am having is understanding why I should worship an evil God who created me without the ability to love. God created me with the ability to love. That is the reason He created me in order to have someone to love and someone who can respond to His love. He did not create robots.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Choice does not equal freewill.

When we use our freewill [limited as it may be] we are making a choice.

However there are many times in life where we are forced to make choices [these are not free] and in at least some of these cases we are forced to choose between two options where neither option is suitable. If we were free to choose as we please we would choose a choice not presented but we can not because we are forced into the limited choices available.

The point is that many of our choices are forced upon us and many of them are dependant on forces beyond ourselves in neither case can they be considered free.

 

[Pneuma3]

I agree that the first man, or the man of flesh and blood will be totally destroyed, as the grave will certainly take care of that. There is scripture to support this. But what we don't have is scripture to support that there is a new man existing in ALL that is going to be left in place of the old. If the 'new man' was never there to start with, what then?

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Now I know you are going to say this is only speaking of those who have already excepted God as their saviour. But the scriptures are pretty plain that this took place before anyone believed in Him.
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

All were made nigh by the blood of Christ while they were yet without Christ and God in the world.

You seem to think grace is only given to those that believe, but the scripture states by faith are ye saved though faith ( not our faith, but though the faith of Jesus Christ) that’s why it says and not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD. Not of works, least any man should boast.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If the 'new man' was never there to start with, what then?

That’s what the fire and brimstone is for Evergreen.
The fire is God and the brimstone is His breath of life and they are given to those under the judgment of the second death.



As to the beast that perishes we have already covered it, and you said you did not want to speak further on it. So I will only reply, For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[martymonster]

Ok you believe we sin and God kills our soul because we sin. I believe we kill our own soul with our own sin. The bottom line is the same. we sin and we die spiritually. Paul said it this way, the wages of sin is death. And we turn to righteousness and God recreates us spiritually and we live again. The point is we chose to sin and that is why we die and we do not die because of our father's choice to sin, but because of our own choice.

I don't care what you believe,

Show me the scripture!

 

[martymonster]

Ok you believe we sin and God kills our soul because we sin. I believe we kill our own soul with our own sin. The bottom line is the same. we sin and we die spiritually. Paul said it this way, the wages of sin is death. And we turn to righteousness and God recreates us spiritually and we live again. The point is we chose to sin and that is why we die and we do not die because of our father's choice to sin, but because of our own choice.

1) The word soul is not some eternal disembodied spirit, it is you mind and it is inseparable from you body, if the body dies the soul dies to!

2) There are so many examples of God killing people (their souls) in the bible my suggestion for you is to go read it!

 

[elman]

Choice does not equal freewill.

When we use our freewill [limited as it may be] we are making a choice.

However there are many times in life where we are forced to make choices [these are not free] and in at least some of these cases we are forced to choose between two options where neither option is suitable. If we were free to choose as we please we would choose a choice not presented but we can not because we are forced into the limited choices available.

The point is that many of our choices are forced upon us and many of them are dependant on forces beyond ourselves in neither case can they be considered free.

Yes our freewill is limited. Yes we cannot chose whatever we want to chose. We get to chose within the context of our limitations as humans and as mortals in this physical world. The sense in which our choice is an expression of our free will is when we chose to love others and when we chose to not love others. And yes even then we cannot chose to replace lost arms with natural new arms and in that sense yes we do not have that choice, but there are always others way to love that we can chose to do.

 

[elman]

I don't care what you believe,

Show me the scripture!

I have shown you the scripture. Ezekiel 18 and I think it is in Romans that Paul says the wages of sin is death.

 

[elman]

=martymonster;30600366]1) The word soul is not some eternal disembodied spirit, it is you mind and it is inseparable from you body, if the body dies the soul dies to!

Show me the scripture and then tell me why it disagrees with Ezekiel 18. Soul is us, our spiritual existence. If we are loving we will live not die, in other words when our body dies as all physical bodies will, we will continue to live spiritually, but if we are wicked we shall die. Ezekiel 18.

2) There are so many examples of God killing people (their souls) in the bible my suggestion for you is to go read it!

I suggest you read and try to understand it. If you understand it in such a way that God is not good, you need to try again.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Yes our freewill is limited. Yes we cannot chose whatever we want to chose. We get to chose within the context of our limitations as humans and as mortals in this physical world. The sense in which our choice is an expression of our free will is when we chose to love others and when we chose to not love others. And yes even then we cannot chose to replace lost arms with natural new arms and in that sense yes we do not have that choice, but there are always others way to love that we can chose to do.

I do not disagree on the points that we can choose to love others but I do not see this as being enough to say that we have freewill.

For example we can be thrust into situtations where in order to be loving to one we may have to be unloving toward someone else at the same time. Sometimes we may be forced to lie or steal or even kill in order to be loving to others.

I just do not see freewill in this senario. What I do see is that we are able to make a choice but those choices are seldom free and almost always carry some type of consequences often forcing us into other situtations where we must choose yet again. Not that there is anything wrong with being in these situtations, they help us learn and grow but they are far from free.

 

[martymonster]

I have shown you the scripture. Ezekiel 18 and I think it is in Romans that Paul says the wages of sin is death.

So your entire theology is based on two fragments of scripture?

 

[martymonster]

Show me the scripture and then tell me why it disagrees with Ezekiel 18. Soul is us, our spiritual existence. If we are loving we will live not die, in other words when our body dies as all physical bodies will, we will continue to live spiritually, but if we are wicked we shall die. Ezekiel 18.

I suggest you read and try to understand it. If you understand it in such a way that God is not good, you need to try again.

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit, both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart."

How do explain that then?

 

[Pneuma3]

Quote:
I’m not the one who misunderstands Paul Elman, Paul plainly says it is no longer I that sinneth but sin that dwelleth in me.

Then why did Paul say faith without love is meaningless?

Well I don’t know of any scripture that states faith without love is meaningless.

The closes one I could find is this.

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

But will answer your question anyway.

Because your faith is meaningless, we do not live and love because of our faith but because of the faith of Jesus Christ. Like Paul said you can have all the faith you want but if you do not have LOVE your faith is nothing.

Why did Paul say the only thing that matters is faith working itself out in love? You believe it is not us that sins, but God that sins?

Nonsense Elman, point out where I said anything like God is the one that sins.

If not, who do you believe is the sinner?

We are, but not by choice as Paul explains Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Let me ask you this brother, when you sin do you do so willfully? Or do you sin against you own will?

We have a basic disagreement over the nature of God. I see God as haveing free will but always chosing to be loving and you seem to see God as having free will and sometimes chosing to be evil but you think we do not have free will so we were created as robots. Do I have it right?

No you have it backwards, it is I that believes God has free will and you are the one who places limits on His will.

It is Gods will that none should perish, and yet you say Gods will is limited because of our will.

You are saying our free will is greater then Gods will which is the only will which is totally free.

Why to you think God created you if you do not have the ability to love or not love?

To be made into His image so that I would know HOW TO LOVE.

You seem to think man knows how to love with God and yet God is love.

Quote:
Obviously the I is in reference to himself.

As to God not creating man with the law of sin in His members read.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

You did not respond to what I said.
So you are making God responsible for our sin.

I did answer it and will repeat the answer.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
What you believe is that you subjected your own self in unbelief and vanity.
When did we become God to be able to do such a thing.


Quote:
Stay under the judgment of the law then brother.
And ever time you sin against your will you will be in judgment of that law.

No I chose to stay under the grace and forgiveness of a good and loving God, not an evil one that is responsible for my sin.

Without knowing evil how are you ever going to be made in the image and likeness of God who knows both good and evil?

What you are saying ( though you are saying it though ignorance) is that you willfully sin.
Thus placing yourself under the judgment of the law and His sacrifice becomes nil and void.
Are you sure you want to go down that road.


Quote:
Quote:
Paul is saying that he is not responsible for his sin but points out to us that there is a law of sin in our members that is responsible for the sins we commit.

Gobbelgook-I am not responsible but my member are. Are my members me or someone else?

It is not our members that sin, but the law of sin in our members that does, big difference.





Quote:
Yep God created man with the law of sin in His members, For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

We are in disagreement about God being evil. Why did God create us?

Where do you keep coming up with such nonsense?
I have never stated anything about God being evil. This is now the second time in this post you have misrepresented what I have said. Either come up with the quote where I have said any such nonsense or quite making such stupid statements about what I believe.
God created us to be made in His image and likeness, God knows the difference between good and evil, so unless we to come to understand the difference between good and evil how can we ever be made in His image and likeness.
Here in layman terms is the difference between good and evil.
God is good, we are evil.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.



Quote:
Well if Paul’s members were controlled by the law of sin, what do you think?

I think we are responsible for allowing our members to be controlled by sin, and not God.

Well you can think what you want, but it was God who subjected the creation to vanity not willingly. What was in the earth first the light or the darkness?



Quote:
Quote:
Paul refused to blame himself for missing the mark (sinning) brother because he knew all about the old man nature in all of us.

And Paul told us to kill that old man of sin.

Agreed, but why? Because the old man of sin keeps one in bondage, even against ones will.




Quote:
The problem you are having Elman is you think you live by your faith and it is your faith that causes you to love. But it is not our faith that we live by but the faith of Jesus Christ.

The problem I am having is understanding why I should worship an evil God who created me without the ability to love. God created me with the ability to love. That is the reason He created me in order to have someone to love and someone who can respond to His love. He did not create robots.

Elman, no one has yet ever said that we are robots, except you.

Man has a will, so this does not make him a robot, we agree on this right?

Where we disagree is that you say mans will is free even though he is in bondage to the law of sin in his members.

A law must be obeyed until a greater law comes into effect.

Take a balloon and let is go, what happens? It falls to the ground.
Why? Because the law of gravity
Now take the same balloon and fill it with helium, what happens? It rises.
Why? Because a greater law has come into effect.

Now apply that same law to man and what do you get?
The law of sin will always cause man to fall.
But put Christ in man and man rises.
Why? Because the law of sin is superceded by the law of liberty in Christ.
In Adam all die, in Christ all are made alive.

 

[elman]

I do not disagree on the points that we can choose to love others but I do not see this as being enough to say that we have freewill.

For example we can be thrust into situtations where in order to be loving to one we may have to be unloving toward someone else at the same time. Sometimes we may be forced to lie or steal or even kill in order to be loving to others.

I just do not see freewill in this senario. What I do see is that we are able to make a choice but those choices are seldom free and almost always carry some type of consequences often forcing us into other situtations where we must choose yet again. Not that there is anything wrong with being in these situtations, they help us learn and grow but they are far from free.

I doubt that anyone arguing for free will is saying we have unlimited power to do anything we want. I know that has never been my position when I said we have free will. The situations you describe still leave us with the ability to be loving by choice. It is simply necessary that we be wise in order to truly be loving and that means we have to make choices in the context of our limitations and abilites. Therefore when I define free will it is never the ability to do anything we want. It is the ability to be loving or not loving within the context of our limitations as human beings. Sin is not loving when I am able to love, not failure to love when I had no opportunity to love.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I understand and I am not saying it really means the freedom to do anything we want either.

It does mean to be able to do the things we do freely, meaning no pressure to do a certian thing and no threats of penalty for not doing a certian thing. When pressure is applied and threats of punishment levied the choices are no longer free but come at a price.

 

[elman]

So your entire theology is based on two fragments of scripture?

No but are you saying these fragments are not from God?