Freewill?

[Pneuma3]

Why is it so hard to see that the first gift of life was as mortals and it ends for the righteous and the unrighteous, no difference and no threat to either. Spiritual life, however is different. we kill our own soul with our own sin and if we do not love others-return to righteousness and remain in wickedness, we will die spirituallly and not live. If we do turn away from wickedness and to righteouseness we will live, because God will gift us with eternal spiritual life. Again no punishment, no threat. The consequences of being wicked is death, not life.

Are you sure about that? (bolded part)

He that findeth his life/soul shall lose it: and he that loseth his life/soul for my sake shall find it.

Seems to me it is the working of the Holy Spirit that kills our soul/life and not sin.

 

[Soul Searcher]

And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice and said, Eli, Eli, lmana shabachthani! which means, My God, my God, for this I was kept!

For some further insight into interpreting the words of Matthew, here is a brief summary of a rather lengthy article by Rev. Wayne Clapp who suggests that either the Greek or the Aramaic could be interpreted in an alternative manner:

There is probably no scripture more misunderstood than Jesus’ cry from the cross, "My God. My God. Why hast thou forsaken me?" Did Jesus Christ really utter these words? Would Jesus have accused his heavenly Father of such an act of desertion? Did God really abandon His only begotten son as he was dying on the cross?

The difficulty with Matthew 26:47 is due to an error in translation. "Forsaken" is the wrong choice for the translation in this verse.
"Eli" means "my God." Lama, or lemana means "why" or "for what purpose" and always introduces a question. It occurs 53 times in the Aramaic-English Interlinear New Testament (#1584) and it is translated "why" 45 times, "what" 5 times, and "for what purpose" 3 times. "Sabachthani" comes from sebaq meaning to leave, forgive, allow, reserve, or spare.
The Greek word translated forsaken,

can mean to leave in the sense of forsaking and abandoning, or to leave in the sense of sparing or allowing to remain. The context determines the meaning.

by Rev Wayne Clapp

​

http://wahiduddin.net/words/forsaken.htm

 

[Soul Searcher]

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani"

This is a quote in Aramaic -- meaning "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me" -- attributed in the New Testament to Jesus as he was crucified. In English translation, these words also comprise the beginning of the Twenty-Second Psalm.
Matthew 27:46 - ηλι ηλι λαμα σαβαχθανι (/eli eli lama sabachthani/, later Aramaic "E-lee e-lee l-maa saa-baach-taa-nee?") Matthew 27:46 (Lamsa translation)- ηλι ηλι λαμανα σαβαχθανι (/eli eli lamana sabachthani/, later Aramaic "E-lee e-lee l-maa-naa saa-baach-taa-nee?") The late Aramaic Bible researcher George Lamsa claimed that the traditional "forsaken" interpretation is a mistake in the Aramaic scribing that was transferred to later transcriptions. Lamsa claimed that "the correct translation from Aramaic should be "Eli, Eli, lemana shabakthani" or "My God, my God, for this [purpose] I was spared!" or "...for such a purpose have you kept me!") According to Lamsa's translation, that rather than a "loss of faith" Christ meant, to say "so this is my destiny."

http://www.thenazareneway.com/why_hast_thou_forsaken_me.htm

 

[elman]

Are you sure about that? (bolded part)

He that findeth his life/soul shall lose it: and he that loseth his life/soul for my sake shall find it.

Seems to me it is the working of the Holy Spirit that kills our soul/life and not sin.

Ezekiel in chapter 18 says what I said. We kill our own soul with our own sin.

 

[martymonster]

Be not overcome with evil but overcome evil with good. Matt 25:31 is the last judgment. It is the white throne judgment and if you have not loved when you get there you do not get life with God. We learn obedience by being obedient.

Actually, we learn obedience through suffering!

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loves he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives.
Heb 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chastens not?
Heb 12:8 But if you be without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then are you illegitimate children, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh who corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Notice that it was Jesus's obedience that makes us righteous not our own!

So according to Paul Adam and Eve couldn't have been obedient, because they hadn't leaned it yet!

 

[Pneuma3]

I believe it to be you who would have God tormenting Job. I understand that God did not interpose when Satan started his destructive work in Job's life, but God only allowed Satan to go so far.

Not only did God allow Satan to work destruction on Job, God took hand in that destruction Himself.
Job 1:16
16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
The fire of God is corrective fire Harlin and God used it in order to correct Job.

Now how could this possibly have been for Job's good?, the Bible says Job was a "perfect and upright" man, one that "feared God and eschewed evil". The story of Job I believe, is in the scriptures for a very good reason, to distinguish between who the destroyer and the protector is. God was proving to Satan, that it was not only because God was protecting Job that he worshipped and feared Him, but that is was much deeper than that, God removed His protection so far, that He would be vindicated when Satan's accusations failed.

Yep Job was an upright man, but he had one fatal flaw, by his own mouth he said
Job 13:15
15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.
Job had his own will before God, (sounds familiar don’t it) but Jobs will was not according to God.
And also in this scripture you will note Job himself attributed these things to God, (Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him). Obviously Job was not talking about trusting Satan.
Quote:
I don’t look at the judgment or Jesus coming the second time as a future event sis, for some this is true but for the overcomer Jesus has already come the second time and the judgment is already past. When He was born in us He came into the flesh a second time and by His presences within judgment is made to the removing of sin in each of us that has been born of God.

Although I agree that there is a judgement going on at the moment (Rev 11:1), I have to say that Biblically speaking the second return of a physical Christ is apparent to me. The parable of the 10 virgins gives heed to this message. There are only 5 virgins ready with oil (the Holy Spirit) in there vessels, when the bride groom (Christ) returns, the other 5 sleep while the bride groom tarries and are unprepared to go out and meet Him when He arrives, they have no oil in their vessels.

Now, if the Holy Spirit is the second return of Christ, according to you (I assume this is what you mean, I could be wrong here), and the oil in the vessels is the Holy Spirit, who is the Bride Groom in that parable?

No that was not my meaning, the Holy Spirit is not Christ, but is that which leads us to Christ. Once Christ is in you His very presence destroys the sins in our life.
Quote:
Yes whom the SON sets free is free indeed, that does not mean we by our own will are set free but that we must rely solely of Jesus Christ.
Our will is simply destroyed because their can only be one head of the body and that head is Jesus Christ

I didn't mean that it was by "our will" that we were set free, or at least that is certainly not what I believe even if somehow that is what is taken from my statement. Christ came to set us free from the bondage of sin, He didn't do that so that we are then compelled to serve Him instead, He came to let the truth be known so that we can make an informed decision.

"Choose you this day whom ye will serve,..........as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord" Josh 24:15

Well if you don’t believe it is your own will that sets us free then I don’t see why we are not in agreement.

Again a choice is not the same thing as free will, a choice always has constraints with it, free will is something that has no constraints.

 

[hairettic]

So it does come back to freewill and choice not being the same thing!

 

[Pneuma3]

Ezekiel in chapter 18 says what I said. We kill our own soul with our own sin.

This one?

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

That does not say we kill our own soul with our own sin.


It just saying if that the soul that sinneth shall die.

And Jesus explains how the soul that sinneth is to die.

He that findeth his life/soul shall lose it: and he that loseth his life/soul for my sake shall find it.

 

[hairettic]

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani"

This is a quote in Aramaic -- meaning "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me" -- attributed in the New Testament to Jesus as he was crucified. In English translation, these words also comprise the beginning of the Twenty-Second Psalm.
Matthew 27:46 - ηλι ηλι λαμα σαβαχθανι (/eli eli lama sabachthani/, later Aramaic "E-lee e-lee l-maa saa-baach-taa-nee?") Matthew 27:46 (Lamsa translation)- ηλι ηλι λαμανα σαβαχθανι (/eli eli lamana sabachthani/, later Aramaic "E-lee e-lee l-maa-naa saa-baach-taa-nee?") The late Aramaic Bible researcher George Lamsa claimed that the traditional "forsaken" interpretation is a mistake in the Aramaic scribing that was transferred to later transcriptions. Lamsa claimed that "the correct translation from Aramaic should be "Eli, Eli, lemana shabakthani" or "My God, my God, for this [purpose] I was spared!" or "...for such a purpose have you kept me!") According to Lamsa's translation, that rather than a "loss of faith" Christ meant, to say "so this is my destiny."

http://www.thenazareneway.com/why_hast_thou_forsaken_me.htm

once again, you challenge my thinking. thanks...I am not able to give soul searcher reputation until I spread some more around!

 

[Pneuma3]

So it does come back to freewill and choice not being the same thing!

so it would seem sis

 

[Pneuma3]

once again, you challenge my thinking. thanks...I am not able to give soul searcher reputation until I spread some more around!

ya that happens to me all the time too, so I just give a or to those posts.

SS to your last post.

 

[hairettic]

'My God, My God, to show this ultimate example has been the purpose of my life!'
from http://wahiduddin.net/words/forsaken.htm

wow

 

[Pneuma3]

=Pneuma3;30401735]How many times do I have to repeat what Paul said.

Why not try to understand what he said rather than just repeat it? Paul did not say God was to blame for our sin. Paul said we are responsible for our sin.

I’m not the one who misunderstands Paul Elman, Paul plainly says it is no longer I that sinneth but sin that dwelleth in me.

Obviously the I is in reference to himself.

As to God not creating man with the law of sin in His members read.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,


Quote:
It is no longer I that sinneth but sin that dwelleth in me.

Whatever this means, sin is something that I do that kills my soul and for which the consequences is spiritual death.

Stay under the judgment of the law then brother.
And ever time you sin against your will you will be in judgment of that law.


Quote:
Paul is saying that he is not responsible for his sin but points out to us that there is a law of sin in our members that is responsible for the sins we commit.

Where did this law come from? God? Is God therefore responsbilbe for the sin in your members? Are you your members? Who is our members?

Yep God created man with the law of sin in His members, For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Is it possible you have allowed your members to be controled by the law of sin?

Well if Paul’s members were controlled by the law of sin, what do you think?



Quote:
Paul refused to blame himself for missing the mark (sinning) brother because he knew all about the old man nature in all of us.

I think it was the Phillipians that Paul encourage to live up to what they had attained and to others he said put on the mind of Christ. Can we live up to what we attained? Can we put on the mind of Christ? If we do is it Christ forcing us to live up to what we attained or is it Christ forcing us to up on the mind of Christ? Does Paul contradict himself and if not what does he mean by telling us our faith is worthless if we do not love?

The problem you are having Elman is you think you live by your faith and it is your faith that causes you to love. But it is not our faith that we live by but the faith of Jesus Christ.

 

[hairettic]

it is no longer I that sinneth but sin that dwelleth in me.

by pnuema

 

[martymonster]

=Pneuma3;30401735]How many times do I have to repeat what Paul said.



I’m not the one who misunderstands Paul Elman, Paul plainly says it is no longer I that sinneth but sin that dwelleth in me.

Obviously the I is in reference to himself.

As to God not creating man with the law of sin in His members read.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,


Quote:
It is no longer I that sinneth but sin that dwelleth in me.



Stay under the judgment of the law then brother.
And ever time you sin against your will you will be in judgment of that law.


Quote:
Paul is saying that he is not responsible for his sin but points out to us that there is a law of sin in our members that is responsible for the sins we commit.



Yep God created man with the law of sin in His members, For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,



Well if Paul’s members were controlled by the law of sin, what do you think?



Quote:
Paul refused to blame himself for missing the mark (sinning) brother because he knew all about the old man nature in all of us.



The problem you are having Elman is you think you live by your faith and it is your faith that causes you to love. But it is not our faith that we live by but the faith of Jesus Christ.

The reason elman doesn't understand is because it doesn't jive with his/her? theology.

if man doesn't have free will to sin or not sin, then God isn't off the hook for being able to kill them!

it's the exact same thing as with ET christians!

 

[Pneuma3]

by pnuema

by Paul

 

[ChasClean]

Sadly, not all will turn.

Why did you turn?

 

[ChasClean]

We are here to do good

We are here to do good?

Man that is hopeless, since there are none who do good. No not one.

Ro 3:12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
Lu 18:19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

You better come up with a clearer understanding of your purpose. And quick.

We are here to get to know God and His ways. To rely on Him. To let Him be strong in our weakness.

We are here to learn we can do nothing without Him. You can't even take your next breath without him, and you think you can be good. You probably think You can help Him along in your salvation by working up the faith.

Humanistic to the core.

 

[hairettic]

 

[Evergreen48]

How many scripture tell us we are to put on Christ, the mind of Christ etc.

Paul stated I no longer live (speaking of his old life) but Christ that liveth in me, yet I live (a whole new Paul).

The only scripture I can think of that states anywhere near to what you have quoted here is Galations 2: 20.


"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

And that is a long way from saying, 'we all are fitted to destruction in the very presence of the Lord.

'The old man with his carnal mind is totally destroyedand so only the new man is left.'
Or, 'the old is gone and the new remains!'


I agree that the first man, or the man of flesh and blood will be totally destroyed, as the grave will certainly take care of that. There is scripture to support this. But what we don't have is scripture to support that there is a new man existing in ALL that is going to be left in place of the old. If the 'new man' was never there to start with, what then?

All of your old man nature is destroyed sis, nothing of the life of the flesh can enter into the kingdom of God.

It is not the presence of God which destroys what you are calling our 'old man nature'. Quite to the contrary it is due to the non-presence of God that this happens.
"Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned. The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree." (Job 24:19-20)

True enough the Psalmist says that where ever he is, God's presense is there also. But does he speak for all in this case, or just for what he knows to be true for himself? Does he say this is this true of everyone?
Psalms 49:6. They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches; 7. None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: 8. (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever: 9. That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption. 10. For he seeth that wise men die, likewise the fool and the brutish person perish, and leave their wealth to others. 11. Their inward thought is, that their houses shall continue for ever, and their dwelling places to all generations; they call their lands after their own names. 12. Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13. This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah. 14. Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15. But God will redeem MY soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. 16. Be not thou afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased; 17. For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him. 18. Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise thee, when thou doest well to thyself. 19. He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light. 20. Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.