Freewill in Romans 1

Sola1517

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By the looks of it Romans chapter 1 teaches that humans have freewill.

How did I come to that conclusion you might ask?

Well, after God reveals himself to the peoples of the earth through General Revelation and they reject the limited revelation about God they are all of a sudden allowed to do whatever sin they want to. God in essence takes his hands off man's will or choice. It implies freewill.
 

JM

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By the looks of it Romans chapter 1 teaches that humans have freewill.

How did I come to that conclusion you might ask?

Well, after God reveals himself to the peoples of the earth through General Revelation and they reject the limited revelation about God they are all of a sudden allowed to do whatever sin they want to. God in essence takes his hands off man's will or choice. It implies freewill.

Sinners choose sin because they are sinners, there is no compulsion from God, they freely choose sin. Freewill exists but is marred by the fallen nature of man.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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twin1954

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By the looks of it Romans chapter 1 teaches that humans have freewill.

How did I come to that conclusion you might ask?

Well, after God reveals himself to the peoples of the earth through General Revelation and they reject the limited revelation about God they are all of a sudden allowed to do whatever sin they want to. God in essence takes his hands off man's will or choice. It implies freewill.
It implies nothing of the kind. It simply states facts without any reference to whether man has a free will or not.

What it does clearly teach is that man's will is corrupt and his nature evil. What it teaches is that when man is given up to his corrupt will he will fall lower and lower into the abominable wretchedness of his sinful nature. It shows how man naturally hates God.

The greatest monument to the will of man and its depth of depravity is the Lord Jesus Christ on a cruel Roman cross. That is exactly what man will do with God when given the freedom to do so.
 
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Sola1517

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It implies nothing of the kind. It simply states facts without any reference to whether man has a free will or not.

What it does clearly teach is that man's will is corrupt and his nature evil. What it teaches is that when man is given up to his corrupt will he will fall lower and lower into the abominable wretchedness of his sinful nature. It shows how man naturally hates God.
It says much more than that. Those people made a choice to not worship God. If God wanted to have 100% sovereignty then why does it say "since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, [then] God gave them up"? (Romans 1:28) It seems to me that Man's choice caused God to react in a certain way.
 
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TaylorSexton

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Who are you responding to? And what is it that you are not following?

I am not following the argument or conclusion from the original post. Sorry for the confusion. I should have quoted it.
 
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TaylorSexton

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It says much more than that. Those people made a choice to not worship God. If God wanted to have 100% sovereignty then why does it say "since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, [then] God gave them up"? (Romans 1:28) It seems to me that Man's choice caused God to react in a certain way.

What person who holds to Reformed theology denies that man's sin causes God to react?
 
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twin1954

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It says much more than that. Those people made a choice to not worship God. If God wanted to have 100% sovereignty then why does it say "since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, [then] God gave them up"? (Romans 1:28) It seems to me that Man's choice caused God to react in a certain way.
If God reacts to what men do then He is little more than a man Himself. He must be always changing His understanding and responds to men. That would make man control God instead of the other way around.
 
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TaylorSexton

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If God reacts to what men do then He is little more than a man Himself.

First of all, congrats on your 3,000th post.

Secondly, I don't think it's saying exactly that to assert that God reacts to things, at least from our perspective. That is not to say that he reacts because he is surprised or frustrated. Rather, it is simply God's immutable decree playing out in finite time. In a very real sense, for example, we sin, and God punishes. But, that is just me being nit picky. Don't worry; I am one of the staunchest Calvinists you will ever meet—on all five points.

In the end, I still don't follow the OP.
 
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twin1954

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First of all, congrats on your 3,000th post.

Secondly, I don't think it's saying exactly that to assert that God reacts to things, at least from our perspective. That is not to say that he reacts because he is surprised or frustrated. Rather, it is simply God's immutable decree playing out in finite time. In a very real sense, for example, we sin, and God punishes. But, that is just me being nit picky. Don't worry; I am one of the staunchest Calvinists you will ever meet—on all five points.

In the end, I still don't follow the OP.
From our perspective He doesn't react but simply brings to pass His purpose in all things. Also God never punishes His people for has already punished them in Christ.

And thank you for your congratulations. I didn't even realize I had made 3,000 posts.
 
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TaylorSexton

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God never punishes His people for has already punished them in Christ.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was just making a general comment by using the pronoun "us," not saying "us" as believers but "us" as human beings in general.
 
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twin1954

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Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was just making a general comment by using the pronoun "us," not saying "us" as believers but "us" as human beings in general.
I guess I am conditioned by the common idea in "Christianity" that God still punishes believers if they commit sin. I took no offense but just wanted to make things clear. :oldthumbsup::oldthumbsup:
 
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Sola1517

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What person who holds to Reformed theology denies that man's sin causes God to react?
If God plans for people to sin then it isn't truly a reaction, it's a game.
If God reacts to what men do then He is little more than a man Himself.
(Deuteronomy 11:26-28) If we do not truly have a choice to make in serving either God or ourselves then it's like deism because God is simply letting his plan play out. On top of that we can't truly say that we desire God if we have no choice in the matter.
He must be always changing His understanding and responds to men. That would make man control God instead of the other way around.
God is not in control because he wills everything, but because he is omnipotent and foreknowing.
 
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TaylorSexton

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If God plans for people to sin then it isn't truly a reaction, it's a game.

You didn't answer my question. You merely offered your own (mis)understanding of Reformed theology.

(Deuteronomy 11:26-28) If we do not truly have a choice to make in serving either God or ourselves then it's like deism because God is simply letting his plan play out. On top of that we can't truly say that we desire God if we have no choice in the matter.

What does this Scripture passage have to do with free will? We have freedom to choose, but not a free will. Choice and will are not the same thing. You are equating them here, which is a category error. The Bible says everywhere that we have a choice, but categorically denies that we have a free will. A free will after the Fall and before glorification are unknown to Scripture. Can you prove otherwise?

God is not in control because he wills everything, but because he is omnipotent and foreknowing.

Scripture? Logic?
 
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Sola1517

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You didn't answer my question. You merely offered your own (mis)understanding of Reformed theology.
Sorry, didn't read. People at my church do. Now I have a question, what do you think I mean by react?
We have freedom to choose, but not a free will. Choice and will are not the same thing. You are equating them here, which is a category error.
What's the difference?
A free will after the Fall and before glorification are unknown to Scripture. Can you prove otherwise?
Matthew 7:13-14, why does Jesus say "enter" if we are unable to?
James 4:8, How can a person "come near to God" if they are unable to?
John 3:20-21, Jesus is speaking about conversion in verse 21. So if a person "comes to the light" then that shows they can move in the direction of Christ. It's freewill.
Scripture? Logic?
Give me a Scripture that contradicts it.
 
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com7fy8

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One thing > in Romans 1 > part of why God gave the people up was because they were not "thankful" < Romans 1:21.

James 4:8, How can a person "come near to God" if they are unable to?
First . . . if a person's heart is "deceitful" and "desperately wicked" > Jeremiah 17:9 > then how can that heart be able to desire and seek God?

This leaves only one possibility that I am aware of > God speaks His word, then He does what His word means . . . like how He spoke for creation to take place, then He Himself did the creating which He meant by His word.

Plus, if we are not God, how can we be smart enough and wise enough to know what He means by His word? God is already perfect, with perfect ability to understand His word; we are not.

Isaiah 55:11 guarantees that God's word will do all which God pleases . . . which God Himself means and desires . . . so better than we humans are capable of understanding. So, it is good to feed on His word, trusting God to do with us all He means :) Ones have such failure because of trying to make themselves will and do what they suppose God means, but > Philippians 2:13.

Romans 9:21

2 Corinthians 3:5, 2 Corinthians 12:9
 
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TaylorSexton

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Sorry, didn't read. People at my church do. Now I have a question, what do you think I mean by react?

I don't know. Why don't you define and defend your position instead of asking questions/averting?

What's the difference?

The will is a faculty within every human being. Choice is an acting upon the will. Everyone has absolute freedom of choice, meaning nothing hinders them from making a willing choice, but no choice can be made outside the influence of the will. Read some literature on this. Start with Edwards' Freedom of the Will. These are basic distinctions that are necessary if one expects to have valuable conversation in these matters.

Matthew 7:13-14, why does Jesus say "enter" if we are unable to?
James 4:8, How can a person "come near to God" if they are unable to?
John 3:20-21, Jesus is speaking about conversion in verse 21. So if a person "comes to the light" then that shows they can move in the direction of Christ. It's freewill.

Commands do not imply the ability to keep those commands. That is an Arminian assumption that has been obliterated by both theologian and Scripture time and time again. Simply pointing to commands and saying, "Look! Free will!" is not an argument, much less a true one. Commands imply and require freedom of choice, but not free will (see above). Rather, Scripture says that "The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God." That is talking about the will, which in turn prevents choice in the direction of the good. It is plain as the sun is bright.

Give me a Scripture that contradicts it.

Sure. I am absolutely prepared to back up my statements with Scripture and logic, since that is what theology is supposed to be, rather than making unsupported claims and then throwing the burden of proof upon others. I will play your game, though.

Scripture: God "works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will" (Eph. 1:11). That's just one example; I can give you several more if that statement from the Holy Spirit isn't enough.

Logic: If God is omniscient and omnipotent, yet did not will (ordain) everything that comes to pass, then something or someone else—something or someone greater than God—did. If God's control only comes through his foreknowledge (which, by the way, does not mean what you think it means biblically; I would suggest you doing a word study on that), then God is not in control of anything, but merely the great, albeit very wise, reactor in the sky. If God's foreknows without willing, then there was clearly a time when God did not foreknow, suggesting that he had to learn, a horrid blasphemy even to suggest. Rather, God through the Scripture declares, "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times what is still to come" (Is. 46:10b). Now, this sounds like mere foreknowledge, but look at the next statement for clarification about what he means. "My purpose (i.e., will) will stand, and I will do all that I please." He does not will because he foreknows, but foreknows because he wills. It is the only scheme that makes logical and biblical sense.
 
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TaylorSexton

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Give me a Scripture that contradicts it.

Furthermore, this response is the equivalent of replying to an atheist who asks, "Prove that there is a God," by saying, "Prove that there isn't." This is somewhat childish. It is not a response, but rather intellectual laziness. If you are going to make statements, back them up with either logic or Scripture. That is how theology works, friend.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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By the looks of it Romans chapter 1 teaches that humans have freewill.

How did I come to that conclusion you might ask?

Well, after God reveals himself to the peoples of the earth through General Revelation and they reject the limited revelation about God they are all of a sudden allowed to do whatever sin they want to. God in essence takes his hands off man's will or choice. It implies freewill.

You have helped prove a point which you didn't intend to prove. . .
 
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