Freemasonry is compatible with Christianity?

[Rev Wayne]

The intimidating rites like the rope around the neck and a blade to the chest while blindfolded conditions rising masons to submit to their power as slaves of the agenda...OR ELSE.

You’re free to believe what you wish, but I’d suggest you don’t try to make this claim when Masons are around, unless you really enjoy being laughed at. This has to be the most preposterous understanding of Masonic symbolism I’ve seen. The three degrees are symbolic of the three stages of a man’s life: infancy and childhood, the working and productive years, and old age. The blindfold is symbolic of our condition upon entering this world, in complete ignorance, dependent upon someone else for one’s care. The rope is symbolic of the training of the will, and upon taking one’s obligation, the rope is removed because the candidate is now “bound by a stronger tie,” that is, by the giving of one’s word, and learning to be true to one’s word. The “blade” to one’s chest is simply an inducement to conscience, there is a later place where the candidate says, “As this instrument was a torture to my flesh, so may the memory of it be to my mind and conscience should I reveal the secrets of Masonry.” But I can tell you from experience, it was not a “blade,” it was not even as Masonry describes it, a “sharp instrument,” it was rather dull-feeling, and was hardly even pressed against me hard enough to even feel what it was. For all I could tell, it could as easily have been someone’s finger.

And the “OR ELSE” is so hilarious I won’t even bother to comment. Somebody with a flair for the dramatic must sit around and dream these things up. They sure don’t resemble anything in Masonry at all.

The oaths are very enforced with extreme prejudice, as in the old case of Captain Morgan. He violated his oath and was abducted, never to be seen again.

Okay, tell us what happened to him? Not that the answer would tell us anything, because no one knows, just as no one truly knows or has ever proven that he was abducted in the first place. As prone to fabrications and hoaxes as antimasons seem to be, it could very easily have been a staged disappearance to sell the book he had just written.

To the antimason, it is “proof” because of his slant on the obligations. If a Mason counters that there has never been any evidence even once that the described penalty has ever been carried out, then the antimason will come back with, “That’s just another indication of Masonic secrecy.” The whole argument is circular: “The penalty “proves” it is evil; the secrecy further “proves” it; the lack of evidence “proves” the secrecy and therefore “proves” it is evil.

In the Morgan case, it’s easy to see how little credibility was given to those making the accusations, since after the antimasons created their own political party as a result, the nation overwhelmingly elected a Mason into the office—which of course, leads the antimasons to proclaim that this is simply more “proof” of just how deep the well is.

In the end, it doesn’t matter what anyone tells a diehard accusationist, they will only chew it up and spit it out as more grist for the mill.

But over 1000 citizens per day go permanently missing

“Proving” what? That Masons abduct and/or murder 1000 people per day? That’s pretty good stuff. And the cephasministry people have apparently discovered what has been happening to them, they all wind up working underground in alien forced labor camps, in league with Masons. (<snicker>)

That explanation is not surprising, really, because it stands to reason that it would take stupid and unverifiable explanations to explain stupid and unverifiable accusations.

death certificates can be falsified, and "accidents" staged.

Accusations can be falsified as well—or in most cases, as with antimason imaginations, they can be of such a nature they are unverifiable to begin with—which is most preferable to them, being as it is, the most convenient.

I'm actively enough in the fight to get such threats, and I know which people plan to be there, participating, of those I know. God has protected me enough to know that God is real, and against freemasonry. I can assure you, the top masons have been astounded at God protecting me; so have I.

Yeah, you’re a real legend in your own mind. Nobody’s going to do any harm to you, you’re much more valuable to Masonry as it now stands. You have become the epitome on this forum, the poster boy, of all that is unbelievable about antimasonry. Why would we tamper with that? As for this personal intrigue, I find it implausible since you have posted your diatribe for all this time, and only NOW, after having your P2 Mafia accusation revealed for what it is, you resort to accusations of having been personally threatened.

No, I can’t believe, as heated as you have become in those arguments, that you would persist in them as long as you have without once giving any indications of any of what you now claim.

Since I seem to be the only one who has given you any reason to continue, perhaps it’s time to simply withdraw and let this monologue of yours die on the vine.

I've been threatened with being made a "shrine" myself, for masons to laugh at as they watch me die.

The only Masons who are laughing at you are, as I am, laughing at seeing the lengths to which anyone would go to self-destruct.

 

[Rev Wayne]

You expect me to reveal masonic oaths when Wayne refuses to post the wording of the low level oath he took? OK; http://www.cuttingedge.org/NEWS/n1264.cfm

Ah, yes, the cuttingedge people, that wonderful paragon of truth and virtue. You post these links so easily, but do you really READ the stuff they're pandering? For instance:
Bible scholars firmly believe that the Giants, the Aliens, and the Nephilim were going to return at the End of the Age as strongly as they existed in the "Days of Noah". They have returned, and they foretell the coming of Antichrist.
Jesus warned in Mathew 24 that "For as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the son of man be". This video features Cutting Edge staff teacher and lecturer, Mac Dominick, who takes us through a Biblical study of Genesis chapter 6 and other books of the Bible to explain just what was happening in the days of Noah and how Angels married Human women and had Children by them, known as Nephilim.
This Cutting Edge video will take you through the Bible and show why we believe that this has now happened again. Watch and learn why the Nephilim are back! What are demons, aliens and UFOs and what do they have to do with the days of Noah and the Nephilim spoken of in Genesis that were on the "Earth in those days and thereafter"?
The time is now "thereafter"!

(From a plug on the cuttingedge website for a video, “The Nephilim Walk Among Us Again: UFOs and Aliens Endtimes Deception”)
http://www.cuttingedge.org/on_sale.cfm

Wow, first you post links to a site promoting stories trying to link Masons with alien abductions of children, forced child labor, and eventually devouring them;

and NOW you post links to a site promoting
ideas that UFOs have brought Nephilim demons and aliens to our planet!

How long before the cuttingedge people will take their cue from the cephasministry people and realize the ultimate source of this nefarious plot is none other than those demonizing MASONS?????

 

[John1and1]

Rev Wayne, why do you say Billy Graham is not a freemason, when i myself have seen his name on the roll of a lodge in louisiana? Is this the party line now? Deny Graham?

 

[AndrewCS]

Ah, yes, the cuttingedge people, that wonderful paragon of truth and virtue. You post these links so easily, but do you really READ the stuff they're pandering?

I really sense that there is a heated argument going on here.

Anger and confusion is not of God nor is it Godly.

Please can I ask a question:-

Rev, are you actually a pastor? If not can you please explain your position .

Thank you & God Bless

 

[AndrewCS]

It's quite simple really.

God does not do things in secret,

Any society that operates in smoke & mirror fashion is NOT operating in Godly principals.

Knowledge is power - is how secret societies operate and the need to take “oaths” and make pact with man is NOT how God tell us to live.

Isn’t most Masonic purpose about wealth and power ?

That is the OPPOSITE of GOD


God Bless

 

[Rev Wayne]

Rev Wayne, why do you say Billy Graham is not a freemason, when i myself have seen his name on the roll of a lodge in louisiana?

Then you are a Mason, I presume?

Actually, I seriously doubt your claim. But if you would be so kind as to post the name of the Lodge, the number, and provide me with a contact number so I can verify the information, I'm certainly willing to do the research.

But others have already researched this, and what they report tells me that you have probably been reading too many conspiratorial websites. The false claim about Louisiana has been circulating longer than my ceiling fan, but what can you expect when so many accusers have so many targets they wish to vilify? As if the false accusations about Masons were not bad enough, there are people who are so jealous of the recognizable name of Billy Graham that in order to vilify his name, they try to connect him with something they figure he will automatically be vilified for. Actually, I would be honored to find that the distinguished Dr. Graham truly was a Mason, but there is too much evidence to indicate the contrary. But of course, there are certain circumstantial things that people have pointed to as "evidence" that he is. Masonicinfo has done their homework on this one:

Reverend Billy Graham - Sometimes referred to as 'America's Minister', Rev. Graham is frequently identified as a Mason by religious intolerants whose ideology is different from his. They feel, apparently, that connecting him with Freemasonry will smear his outstanding abilities and his life-long commitment to his faith. In the earliest days of the world wide web (we seem to recall it was about 1994), a listing of famous Freemasons appeared on the web site of the Grand Lodge of Louisiana, USA. Dr. Graham's name appeared on the list in error based on an assumption by the person who prepared it. (No, it isn't a conspiracy to hide anything! In fact, it's likely that the information may have come from the book by former Mason Jim Shaw who lied that he had received the 33rd Degree of the Scottish Rite with Rev. Graham in attendance. Since Shaw never received that honor, clearly there is nothing to his claim. Read about it here!)Since then, though, unsubstantiated claims have flown about on the internet and one of the most frequent questions we receive dealing with specific individuals concerns Dr. Graham. The simple fact - as substantiated by his organization - is that he is FAR too involved with his ministry to devote time to any other organization. Like other recognizable leaders who are not Masons, Dr. Graham has from time to time been present at Masonic or Masonic-family events. There is a picture sometimes found on the web of him attending a DeMolay public installation of officers. Over his lifetime, Dr. Graham has attended thousands of meetings of groups. To state that Rev. Graham held Masonic membership simply based on his attendance was an assumption by that webmaster of the most absurd proportions. Regretfully, most of those who insist that Rev. Graham is a Mason are those who want to smear both him and the fraternity.
Mason Jeff Armstrong in Illinois has also noted that when Dr. Graham was a student at Wheaton College in Wheaton, Illinois, he rented the Masonic Hall for his weekly sermons. This could have easily caused many to assume that he was somehow connected with Freemasonry not realizing that many Masonic Halls in the US are available for rental purposes (although some jurisdictions prohibit it).
And there are still a couple of dozen rants left over on the web from religious intolerants who want to name every prominent religious leader as a Mason as if this were somehow a terrible thing. For the record, neither Oral Roberts, Jerry Falwell, or Kenneth Copeland are Masons either. You'll note that NONE of the material making these claims can cite where these men were supposedly members but instead rely on absurd claims that they're "secret" members. No such thing, folks. In fact, you'll note that the claims regarding Copeland all have similar wording. Why? They all came from the fantasy of a single anti-Masonic website created by conspiracy-obsessed Mark Flynn. It definitely proves the old saw that a lie can travel around the world while the truth is still putting on its socks!

Like I said, if you have direct evidence otherwise and are not just repeating the ANTIMASON PARTY LINE, by all means, provide me specific information about lodge and number and I will look into it. But forgive me if I'm skeptical, the Louisiana thing was never a matter of having his name on a lodge roll.

And I was serious about my first question, are you a Mason? If you are not, then please drop any claims of having seen a roll of lodge membership, that would not be lawful information for you at all unless you are a Mason.

 

[AndrewCS]

“But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly. And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.”—Matthew 6:3-6

1
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3
But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4
That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.


In context this is referring to charitable deeds. Personnaly I do not feel you have used in context of “secret societies” and doing “things” secretly.

“Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.”—Matthew 13:33-35

Same thing, in the chapter and in context it reads that JESUS said that he spoke in parables so that He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


1
The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2
And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3
And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4
And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5
Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
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And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
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And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17
For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18
Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20
But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
24
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27
So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28
He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
31
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32
Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
33
Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
34
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
36
Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37
He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
44
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.


Hidden here is presented in PAST TENSE.

In context it raeds that Jesus SPOKE parables as in those days to be educated was only for the rich, therfore HE spoke in simple terms that the GOOD NEWS MAY BE UNDERSTOOD FOR ALL

 

[Rev Wayne]

The main premise presented to which I replied was:

God does not do things in secret,

The tense does not matter, the fact still stands that, yes, God does things in secret. He kept things secret "from the foundation of the world" till at least the time Jesus walked the earth, a pretty considerable length of time to be operating in secret. And unless you can tell me when Jesus is going to return, as in date and time, then I have to assume He is STILL doing things in secret.

 

[AndrewCS]

“But they did not understand this saying, and it was hidden from them so that they did not perceive it; and they were afraid to ask Him about this saying.”—Luke 9:45

Once again: If we read the scriptures IN CONTEXT it is VERY clear that JESUS commanded the disciples to go forth & preach the gospel – NOT TO HIDE IT.


1
Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
2
And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
3
And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.
4
And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart.
5
And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
6
And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.
7
Now Herod the tetrarch heard of all that was done by him: and he was perplexed, because that it was said of some, that John was risen from the dead;
8
And of some, that Elias had appeared; and of others, that one of the old prophets was risen again.
9
And Herod said, John have I beheaded: but who is this, of whom I hear such things? And he desired to see him.
10
And the apostles, when they were returned, told him all that they had done. And he took them, and went aside privately into a desert place belonging to the city called Bethsaida.
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And the people, when they knew it, followed him: and he received them, and spake unto them of the kingdom of God, and healed them that had need of healing.
12
And when the day began to wear away, then came the twelve, and said unto him, Send the multitude away, that they may go into the towns and country round about, and lodge, and get victuals: for we are here in a desert place.
13
But he said unto them, Give ye them to eat. And they said, We have no more but five loaves and two fishes; except we should go and buy meat for all this people.
14
For they were about five thousand men. And he said to his disciples, Make them sit down by fifties in a company.
15
And they did so, and made them all sit down.
16
Then he took the five loaves and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed them, and brake, and gave to the disciples to set before the multitude.
17
And they did eat, and were all filled: and there was taken up of fragments that remained to them twelve baskets.
18
And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?
19
They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again.
20
He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.
21
And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;
22
Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
25
For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
26
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
27
But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
28
And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29
And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30
And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31
Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32
But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33
And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34
While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35
And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
36
And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.
37
And it came to pass, that on the next day, when they were come down from the hill, much people met him.
38
And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child.
39
And, lo, a spirit taketh him, and he suddenly crieth out; and it teareth him that he foameth again, and bruising him hardly departeth from him.
40
And I besought thy disciples to cast him out; and they could not.
41
And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither.
42
And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father.
43
And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples,
44
Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.
45
But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.
46
Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.
47
And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,
48
And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.
49
And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

 

[AndrewCS]

“But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken.”—Luke 18:34

Once again: If we read the scriptures IN CONTEXT it is VERY clear that JESUS commanded the disciples to go forth & preach the gospel – NOT TO HIDE IT.

32
For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33
And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34
And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.


THe topic here ( in context) is that they ( the disciples) did not understand what Jesus was talking about as He was speaking of his future, the crocifiction and his resurrection.

The disciples could not understand and this was the master plan that HAD TO happen to give us all FREEDOM IN CHRIST. Mot just for some – it is for all of us that LOVE CHRIST.

Woo Hoo

He HAS RISEN

 

[AndrewCS]

“But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,”—1 Corinthians 2:7

Once again: If we read the scriptures IN CONTEXT it is VERY clear that JESUS commanded the disciples to go forth & preach the gospel – NOT TO HIDE IT.

1
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3
And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[AndrewCS]

“Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.”—1 Corinthians 4:1

Once again: If we read the scriptures IN CONTEXT it is VERY clear that JESUS commanded the disciples to go forth & preach the gospel – NOT TO HIDE IT.

1
Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2
Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
6
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
7
For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
8
Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
9
For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
10
We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
11
Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
12
And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13
Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
14
I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

 

[AndrewCS]

The main premise presented to which I replied was:

The tense does not matter, the fact still stands that, yes, God does things in secret. He kept things secret "from the foundation of the world" till at least the time Jesus walked the earth, a pretty considerable length of time to be operating in secret. And unless you can tell me when Jesus is going to return, as in date and time, then I have to assume He is STILL doing things in secret.

Rev,

Here you are referring to Jesus returning – yes?

But the earlier references (in context) were referring to EVERYONE having the opportunity to hear & understand the gospel. Not a “chosen” few.

So it we retain the context overall and define where and what you are referring to in context it has the original meaning.

That is why I have posted the scriptures that sit within the story; they are related to the overall meaning of the place where they are written. So I use the term – in context or you could say – in their rightful place.

If we pull out scriptures from the bible and string them together as we feel fitting we could re-structure them to have unlimited meanings. In their original place they retain their original meaning.

God Bless you

 

[Rev Wayne]

Once again: If we read the scriptures IN CONTEXT it is VERY clear that JESUS commanded the disciples to go forth & preach the gospel &#8211; NOT TO HIDE IT.

Which of course has nothing to do with my point. The fact that it is a "mystery" and that it is called "hidden wisdom" indicate that God has in some way concealed it, when and at what point it was revealed, or what the intent with it is as you NOW angle it, have nothing to do with my point. You said "God does not do anything in secret," which is a statement without time reference and without any specific limitation to what Jesus wanted the disciples to do with the Gospel. It JUST says that "God does not do anything in secret." All that is required to refute the statement is to show that God indeed has, at any point in the past, ever done anything in secret. "Hidden wisdom" is not revealed, therefore for it to be "hidden" certainly indicates it is kept secret in some way. The fact that has hidden wisdom at some point, then, clearly proves that at some point God HAS done things in secret, therefore the point AS STATED ORIGINALLY is refuted.

As for your full citation of the chapter on "stewards of the mysteries," you still have not addressed what I stated. The very fact that there are "MYSTERIES of God" is the clearest indication that there are things God has not revealed, hence they remain known only by Him, thus He keeps them secret--which of course was my point.


My only point in my reply was to reject the claim that "God does not do things in secret." From my original response to this:

Apparently the claim that "God does not do things in secret" cannot be maintained. He has been doing things in secret "since the foundation of the world."

And when you consider that the primary function of Freemasonry beyond its fraternal relationships is its charitable endeavors, then I'd say that of all charitable organizations that could be named, they probably come the closest to follow Jesus' instructions on how to go about conducting charities: "do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, that your charitable deed may be in secret."

Anyone can figure out when I put in quotes "God does not do things in secret" as the point to which I was responding, that this was the point to which I was responding.

I singled out the conducting of charitable giving, because it is truly the only Masonic secret left, all the rituals and the signs and tokens have been revealed all over the internet. Certainly there is a government requirement to which Masons must adhere, requiring a careful reporting of these matters. But it's not done with any trumpets blaring, nor any fanfare. Many times accusers come after Masonry with accusations concerning those charities, and occasionally a Mason will speak up in defense, and then because he has dared to reply, the accuser will then characterize it as "bragging," or will cast further aspersions at it to vilify it in any way they can.

But the fact is, the giving, and the decisisons about the giving are done exactly as Jesus said they should be, behind closed doors. And that was the only point I made about it.

Sheesh! Can't you find anything interesting to do?

 

[Rev Wayne]

Here you are referring to Jesus returning &#8211; yes?

But the earlier references (in context) were referring to EVERYONE having the opportunity to hear & understand the gospel. Not a &#8220;chosen&#8221; few.

So it we retain the context overall and define where and what you are referring to in context it has the original meaning.

That is why I have posted the scriptures that sit within the story; they are related to the overall meaning of the place where they are written. So I use the term &#8211; in context or you could say &#8211; in their rightful place.

If we pull out scriptures from the bible and string them together as we feel fitting we could re-structure them to have unlimited meanings. In their original place they retain their original meaning.

If you understand what you just said, you're doing better than probably anyone else here.

I have been perfectly clear. God has done things in secret at many times and in many ways--or hadn't you heard that God works in mysterious ways?

Job speaks often of God's "secret counsels."

These things all establish the simple point I made, and which your obfuscation has not muddied:

"God does not do anything in secret" is a false premise. The verses I have cited show many times over that God does indeed do things in secret, and continues to do so--or can't you come up with that date of Jesus' return yet?

What's the matter, God won't tell you?

 

[Rev Wayne]

&#8220;But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken

THe topic here ( in context) is that they ( the disciples) did not understand what Jesus was talking about as He was speaking of his future, the crocifiction and his resurrection.

Yes, THANK YOU! That's right, they DID NOT UNDERSTAND it---and the CONTEXT clearly gives the reason they did not:

this saying was hidden from them!

Gee, I wonder who HID it? Can you say "GOD?"

And I can tell you who revealed it to them AFTER the resurrection, and Pentecost. I can give you a hint: God, through the Holy Spirit, of whom Jesus had already said:

The Holy Spirit, the Comforter, when He has come, will TEACH YOU ALL THINGS.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Rev, are you actually a pastor?

Yes. Fully ordained in 1998.

If not can you please explain your position .

What position would that be?

 

[JamesJD]

Here's a link about Leo Zagami, former member of the Masonic Executive Committee of Monte Carlo, and 33rd° freemason with the P2 Lodge. He's defying death by breaking his oaths, and exposing the horrific plans for the world, which made him defect. http://www.illuminaticonfessions.webfriend.it/
If the link doesn't work, google his name.

Wayne will insist that's not really freemasonry, only an exact copy of it; born of THEN accepted prominent freemason Mazzini. Wayne is strictly front steps freemasonry, saying the P2 son of freemasonry is irrelevant; but P2 is a back door to 33rd°, often faster because mafia people don't need the conditioning as to dangers of violating the oaths via rites of the steps up.

Albion tries to say 33rd° altogether is irrelevant, because not all masons are 33rd°, though the oaths serve the 33rd° agenda. They insist on irrefutable evidence of anyones' involvement with freemasonry, knowing that membership rolls are strictly confidential by masonic law. Therefore, the writings of Crowley and LaVey and Mazzini and Pike are the only evidence there can be, besides things like the masonic award plaque displayed by Hells Angels pres Barger in the tv documentary.

Hiding behind secrecy isn't being above board, on the level. The relation of P2 to front steps freemasonry at the beginning is indisputable. Demanding proof while hiding the facts is the strategy of defenders of freemasonry. Wayne won't even post the words to his oath in full. What's he hiding from us that we cannot be told without violating his oath?

Questionable history, questionable memberships, questionable rulership, questionable oaths, questionable agenda, questionable loyalties. All kept secret as possible, but sometimes exposed by Captain William Morgan, or Leo Zagami, or me. My experience is with P2 lodge mafia people, who don't consider themselves as masonic outcasts, except perhaps as a formality for public relations purposes.

Only deceivers need hide behind secrecy.

 

[AndrewCS]

Rev Wayne,

I need to ask you a very straightforward question.

Do you believe that Freemasonry is acceptable and aligns itself with the word of God ?

I ask that, as you have been ordained and have accountability to God to teach people like me the real truth. I present myself to you as a teachable brother of Christ.

God bless you Rev

 

[George the 3rd]

Rev Wayne,

I need to ask you a very straightforward question.

Do you believe that Freemasonry is acceptable and aligns itself with the word of God ?

I ask that, as you have been ordained and have accountability to God to teach people like me the real truth. I present myself to you as a teachable brother of Christ.

God bless you Rev

I will not pretend to speak for Rev. Wayne or even suggest that he would agree with what I am about to say, but I hope you will accept this as a sincere response to your request.

Freemasonry, is, as it has been stated numerous times in the various threads, a system that assists men in their efforts to improve their moral, social and intellectual talents. As it is NOT a religion, it makes no attempt to interfere with a man's religion or change his perception of the Almighty.
What it does assume, as manifested in it's requirement in a belief in a supreme being, that morality springs from the Laws of God, that social virtues are made more understandable and easier to develop when all of Mankind are seen as Creatures created by God, the Father and that finally, it is assumed that our God given intellect will be employed in every inquiry and investigation.
Rev. Wayne, either as an Ordained Minister of the Gospel or merely a man, could instruct, council and guide you in your inquiry. But ultimately, I'm believe he, as do I and I feel Freemasonry for that matter, would hope that you would employ your God given intellect to determine that question rather than blindly accept what someone else tells you. After all, the use of a blindfold (hoodwink) in Masonic symbolism only has meaning if it is ultimately removed!

George