Freemason

The point is that Freemasons are using symbolism based on Scripture (which holds the Truth of God) and trying to gain wisdom/insight/knowledge that is metaphysical in nature from it apart from God.

The Holy of Holies, Solomon's Temple, the two pillars, Jacobs ladder, the Tree of Life,
the soul, spirit, God....ALL Biblical things which symbolize things that can be considered supernatural or mysterious in nature.

You have to understand what happened before the flood (and after) with the fallen angels and how they set themselves up as "gods" on earth because of their superior knowledge....the knowledge that they taught to humans which resulted in destruction...the knowledge that the Freemasons are attempting to put together again.

PS: Have you heard that in the "higher" degrees, the "G" stands for "Gnosis" and "Generation" instead of "God" and "Geometry"?



And no, I'm not making anything up...check it out:

From your link:

http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/scripts/watchers.html

"The mysterious "egregors" of later magical tradition are linguistically derived from the Watchers and indicate the continuation of an underground stream of knowledge. "



Now, having said all of that, I don't know everything (nor do I want to unless it comes from God, Himself) but I do know what the Bible says on the subject of what the fallen angels did and taught which led mankind away from God and into worshipping "other" gods...false gods.

I have now posted a fair number of websites that say the Freemasons are seeking knowledge which they suspect originated with the fallen angels.

PS: Yes, you are correct, the curtain that was torn in two was not in Solomon's temple but in the 2nd temple. I believe the set up and purpose of the curtain was the same, however.

HisdaughterJen said:

The point is that Freemasons are using symbolism based on Scripture (which holds the Truth of God) and trying to gain wisdom/insight/knowledge that is metaphysical in nature from it apart from God.

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And we're back to just making things up.

1) Most of the lessons in Freemasonry are derived from the working tools... which are not based on scripture, they're based on their actual operative uses when masons still built everything.

2) The masonic legend of Hiram Abiff is connected to scripture, but it is centered on the historical construction of King Solomon's temple.

3) Freemasonry does not teach metaphysics, but it encourages all masons to continue their education, in both an academic and spiritual sense.

4) Freemasonry does not teach anything about avoiding, dodging, subverting, or unseating god.

HisdaughterJen said:

The Holy of Holies, Solomon's Temple, the two pillars, Jacobs ladder, the Tree of Life,
the soul, spirit, God....ALL Biblical things which symbolize things that can be considered supernatural or mysterious in nature.

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1) You never said what the jacob's ladder connection was.

2) The things you listed are not all biblical, they're not all supernatural, and they're not all "mysterious in nature". Some are factual, some are part of a legend, and some are just metaphorical or philisophical.

HisdaughterJen said:

You have to understand what happened before the flood (and after) with the fallen angels and how they set themselves up as "gods" on earth because of their superior knowledge....the knowledge that they taught to humans which resulted in destruction...the knowledge that the Freemasons are attempting to put together again.

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And what knowledge is that? (Pretending for a moment that I believe in evil tinkerbells OR the flood)

HisdaughterJen said:

PS: Have you heard that in the "higher" degrees, the "G" stands for "Gnosis" and "Generation" instead of "God" and "Geometry"?

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Yeah! It also stands for "gay", "gamer", "gregorian", "goodfellas", "goat", "green", and "Guggenheim".

Get real.

HisdaughterJen said:

And no, I'm not making anything up...check it out:

From your link:

http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/scripts/watchers.html

"The mysterious "egregors" of later magical tradition are linguistically derived from the Watchers and indicate the continuation of an underground stream of knowledge. "

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Too bad the word "mason" isn't even found on that page!

I think you just definitively proved that you simply twist anything you find to suit your own needs.

HisdaughterJen said:

Now, having said all of that, I don't know everything (nor do I want to unless it comes from God, Himself) but I do know what the Bible says on the subject of what the fallen angels did and taught which led mankind away from God and into worshipping "other" gods...false gods.

I have now posted a fair number of websites that say the Freemasons are seeking knowledge which they suspect originated with the fallen angels.

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At best, you posted links to a couple essays a few, individual, masons wrote based on their own research and interests. You have yet to show anything demonstrating that Freemasonry, itself, teaches or specifically encourages those things.

HisdaughterJen said:

PS: Yes, you are correct, the curtain that was torn in two was not in Solomon's temple but in the 2nd temple. I believe the set up and purpose of the curtain was the same, however.

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And that's why you're good at spinning conspiracy theories.

Jester4kicks said:

And we're back to just making things up.

1) Most of the lessons in Freemasonry are derived from the working tools... which are not based on scripture, they're based on their actual operative uses when masons still built everything.

2) The masonic legend of Hiram Abiff is connected to scripture, but it is centered on the historical construction of King Solomon's temple.

3) Freemasonry does not teach metaphysics, but it encourages all masons to continue their education, in both an academic and spiritual sense.

4) Freemasonry does not teach anything about avoiding, dodging, subverting, or unseating god.

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I think maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying that all of these things which are used as symbols in Freemasonry...:

The Holy of Holies, Solomon's Temple, the two pillars, Jacobs ladder, the Tree of Life, the soul, spirit, God

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...are Biblical and have supernatural meaning and purpose, Biblically. The Temple, the Holy of Holies and Jacob's ladder all represent "gateways" or "doorways" to heaven or to God. The Tree of Life represents immortality. The soul, spirit and God are all spiritual in nature.

The USE of these things as symbols in Freemasonry raises questions about purpose and intent. They appear to be taking these things and searching for application in the physical world through metaphysical or esoteric, even occultic means.

Hiram Abiff is not Biblical although there was a King of Tyre (which was an evil place) named Hiram who sent stonemasons and carpenters to build palaces for David and Solomon.

1) You never said what the jacob's ladder connection was.

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Gen 28:11 When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep.
Gen 28:12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.
Gen 28:13 There above it stood the Lord, and he said: “I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying.
Gen 28:14 Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring.
Gen 28:15 I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.”
Gen 28:16 When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, “Surely the Lord is in this place, and I was not aware of it.”
Gen 28:17 He was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God; this is the gate of heaven.”

2) The things you listed are not all biblical, they're not all supernatural, and they're not all "mysterious in nature". Some are factual, some are part of a legend, and some are just metaphorical or philisophical.

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ALL are part of the Bible. ALL have supernatural meaning.

And what knowledge is that? (Pretending for a moment that I believe in evil tinkerbells OR the flood)

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The flood happened, Biblically and historically. God is real. Angels are real. The spiritual world is real.

Yeah! It also stands for "gay", "gamer", "gregorian", "goodfellas", "goat", "green", and "Guggenheim".

Get real.

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Obfuscate

Too bad the word "mason" isn't even found on that page!

I think you just definitively proved that you simply twist anything you find to suit your own needs.

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Again, obfuscate.

YOU are the one who posted that link in explaining the ideas of Freemasonry.

At best, you posted links to a couple essays a few, individual, masons wrote based on their own research and interests. You have yet to show anything demonstrating that Freemasonry, itself, teaches or specifically encourages those things.

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It's all in the symbolism, Jester. Those essays just verify the point.

And that's why you're good at spinning conspiracy theories.

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What? Are you saying that you don't believe that the curtain at the Holy of Holies in the Temples served the same purpose?

The tracing boards have symbolism of "looking behind the curtain into the Holy of Holies" and "ladders and stairways to heaven".
This reveals a desire or interest in seeking the knowledge and wisdom of God but Freemasons are seeking it through alternate means. In other words, they aren't going to God for it. They are turning to the occult.

The tracing boards have a dream-like quality to them. Just as dreams (especially dreams from God) are filled with symbolism, so too are the tracing boards. I can't quite put my finger on it, but they are using the tracing boards to convey a message on more than one level of consciousness.

It is a copy, a false rendition, of the interaction of the spirit, within a man, with the words of the Bible and the Spirit of God. People who are born again will understand what I'm saying in this regard. The Bible is interactive. The tracing boards are an attempt at that as well but through malevolent means.

The Bible says that the devil COPIES what God does. This is a prime example.

HisdaughterJen said:

I think maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying that all of these things which are used as symbols in Freemasonry...:

...are Biblical and have supernatural meaning and purpose, Biblically. The Temple, the Holy of Holies and Jacob's ladder all represent "gateways" or "doorways" to heaven or to God. The Tree of Life represents immortality. The soul, spirit and God are all spiritual in nature.

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Hmmm... fair enough. I'll agree that they have various meanings, but what I'm trying to say is that Freemasonry doesn't attempt to use those things towards those same ends.

Think of it this way: Let's say the ancient egyptians believed that tattooing a certain symbol on their bodies would help them in the afterlife... (not saying this is true, just throwing out a hypothetical). For ease of use, let's say the symbol is the Eye of Ra. Now, if a teenager goes into a tattoo parlor today, and asks for a tattoo of the Eye of Ra, it doesn't necessarily mean he thinks it will help him in the afterlife. He could just like how the symbol looks, or he could be using it to express something important to him.

Do you see the difference? The teenager has ignored the supernatural element and history behind the symbol, and is just using it to express something.

HisdaughterJen said:

The USE of these things as symbols in Freemasonry raises questions about purpose and intent. They appear to be taking these things and searching for application in the physical world through metaphysical or esoteric, even occultic means.

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I still don't see how you're drawing that conclusion. You seem to be automatically assuming that the appearance of a symbol automatically implies its use toward supernatural ends.

HisdaughterJen said:

Hiram Abiff is not Biblical although there was a King of Tyre (which was an evil place) named Hiram who sent stonemasons and carpenters to build palaces for David and Solomon.

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You're thinking of the wrong Hiram, but you're at least close.

From wiki:

• Hiram (KJV spells it Huram), a craftsman of great skill sent from Tyre. 2 Chronicles 2:13-14 relates a formal request from King Solomon of Jerusalem to King Hiram I of Tyre, for workers and for materials to build a new temple; King Hiram responds "And now I have sent a skillful man, endowed with understanding, Huram my master craftsman (the son of a woman of the daughters of Dan, and his father was a man of Tyre), skilled to work in gold and silver, bronze and iron, stone and wood, purple and blue, fine linen and crimson, and to make any engraving and to accomplish any plan which may be given to him, with your skillful men and with the skillful men of my lord David your father."[3]

• In 1 Kings 7:13–14, Hiram is described as the son of a widow from the tribe of Naphtali who was the son of a Tyrian bronze worker, contracted by Solomon to cast the bronze furnishings and ornate decorations for the new temple. From this reference, Freemasons often refer to Hiram (with the added Abiff) as "the widow's son". Hiram lived or at least temporarily worked in clay banks (1 Kings 7:46-47) in the plain of the Jordan between Succoth and Zarthan.

HisdaughterJen said:

Gen 28:11 When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep.
Gen 28:12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.
Gen 28:13 There above it stood the Lord, and he said: “I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying.
Gen 28:14 Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring.
Gen 28:15 I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.”
Gen 28:16 When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, “Surely the Lord is in this place, and I was not aware of it.”
Gen 28:17 He was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God; this is the gate of heaven.”

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Yeah, i get where it comes from biblically... but you never said how you were associating it with Freemasonry.

HisdaughterJen said:

ALL are part of the Bible. ALL have supernatural meaning.

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I still don't agree with that blanketed-statement... although even if we assume you're right, my previous argument from above still applies. Just because something has a meaning, it doesn't mean it is being used toward that meaning.

HisdaughterJen said:

The flood happened, Biblically and historically. God is real. Angels are real. The spiritual world is real.

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Ok, not going to push the issue here.

HisdaughterJen said:

Obfuscate

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No, jest. Just because the words start with the letter "G", it doesn't mean they're secretly used as additional meanings of the letter "G" is masonry.

HisdaughterJen said:

Again, obfuscate.

YOU are the one who posted that link in explaining the ideas of Freemasonry.

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Now who's obuscating? I posted the link to one particular article that discussed a couple of pillars. You then posted a different link to an entirely different article that didn't have anything to do with the masons... and then tried to make it look like it did.

So, thanks for trying... but my point stands that it's just another example of your attempts to twist things toward your own ends.

HisdaughterJen said:

It's all in the symbolism, Jester. Those essays just verify the point.

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If a christian writes an essay that claims, in the course of their own religious studies, that jesus and mohammed were poker buddies that made a bet about who could get the most number of followers.... would that automatically make it true?

Of course not.

It's just an essay expressing one person's opinion. Not everyone will agree with it, and it doesn't automatically mean everyone from that person's organization supports their conclusions or believes the same thing.

HisdaughterJen said:

What? Are you saying that you don't believe that the curtain at the Holy of Holies in the Temples served the same purpose?

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What does that have to do with my point? I was saying that the depiction of the curtain on the symbol wasn't even accurate... and even if it was, not every depiction of the sanctum sanctorum shows a curtain! If the curtain is such an important element, wouldn't you think it would be a prodominate part of every depiction?

HisdaughterJen said:

The tracing boards have symbolism of "looking behind the curtain into the Holy of Holies" and "ladders and stairways to heaven".
This reveals a desire or interest in seeking the knowledge and wisdom of God but Freemasons are seeking it through alternate means. In other words, they aren't going to God for it. They are turning to the occult.

Click to expand...

I already addressed the curtain... but if we're now talking about stairs... the stairs in the tracing board refer to the stairs in King Solomon's temple. It's particularly important in the second degree, where the lecture focuses on the stairs and what they represent (the three degrees of Freemasonry, the 5 senses, and the 7 areas of academia). I've never heard them compared or related to Jacob's ladder.

HisdaughterJen said:

The tracing boards have a dream-like quality to them. Just as dreams (especially dreams from God) are filled with symbolism, so too are the tracing boards. I can't quite put my finger on it, but they are using the tracing boards to convey a message on more than one level of consciousness.

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Of course their filled with symbolism! As I've stated before, they were originally used as visual aides of the lecturers, and they have since become artistic pieces to represent the various lessons and working tools associated with the various degrees.

HisdaughterJen said:

It is a copy, a false rendition, of the interaction of the spirit, within a man, with the words of the Bible and the Spirit of God. People who are born again will understand what I'm saying in this regard. The Bible is interactive. The tracing boards are an attempt at that as well but through malevolent means.

Click to expand...

What "malevolent means"? Once again, your twisting facts.

HisdaughterJen said:

The Bible says that the devil COPIES what God does. This is a prime example.

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So anything that teaches a moral value is the work of the devil? I think Aesop might disagree with you just a bit...

Jester4kicks said:

Hmmm... fair enough. I'll agree that they have various meanings, but what I'm trying to say is that Freemasonry doesn't attempt to use those things towards those same ends.

Think of it this way: Let's say the ancient egyptians believed that tattooing a certain symbol on their bodies would help them in the afterlife... (not saying this is true, just throwing out a hypothetical). For ease of use, let's say the symbol is the Eye of Ra. Now, if a teenager goes into a tattoo parlor today, and asks for a tattoo of the Eye of Ra, it doesn't necessarily mean he thinks it will help him in the afterlife. He could just like how the symbol looks, or he could be using it to express something important to him.

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I don't agree.

People use symbols to convey a meaning. A "skull and crossbones" is associated with death. I don't think the "Eye of Ra" has anything to do with the afterlife, does it? It's a symbol for power...God-like power...isn't it?

Do you see the difference? The teenager has ignored the supernatural element and history behind the symbol, and is just using it to express something.

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What, exactly, does the hypothetical teenager expect to convey with having an "eye of Ra" stamped on his flesh? Symbols are a kind of language...a way to express or convey a meaning.

I still don't see how you're drawing that conclusion. You seem to be automatically assuming that the appearance of a symbol automatically implies its use toward supernatural ends.

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Ok, let me try to be more clear...:

Freemasons could use a multitude of any number of symbols. They choose, as their main symbols, things that have supernatural meaning in the Bible or Biblically.

For example, if they want to use symbols from the Bible, why not use things that don't have supernatural meaning like a donkey or a bush or a multi-colored coat?

Instead, they use things that have supernatural meaning like Jacob's ladder. The meaning is "heaven opening" or "ascending/descending" to heaven or "connection with God".

The "tree of life" means "eternal life" or "immortality".

The Holy of Holies means "God's dwelling on earth" or "connection to God".

The curtain at the Holy of Holies means "separation from God" and has deeper meanings in regards to the flesh.

Using "God", "Heaven", "Spirit", "Soul" in Freemason symbolism ALL points to the supernatural...things that are not of the earth.

I still don't agree with that blanketed-statement... although even if we assume you're right, my previous argument from above still applies. Just because something has a meaning, it doesn't mean it is being used toward that meaning.

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BUT it IS! That's the thing...

God is an omniscient, omnipresent Being with knowledge WAY beyond us.
The soul is part of your inner Being as well as the spirit. Both are supernatural.

Many of the symbols are being used to convey the same meaning that the Bible uses.

No, jest. Just because the words start with the letter "G", it doesn't mean they're secretly used as additional meanings of the letter "G" is masonry.

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But I didn't make that up. You think that it means "God" or "Geometry". Masons of higher degrees SAY that it means "Gnosis" or "Generation".

Now who's obuscating? I posted the link to one particular article that discussed a couple of pillars. You then posted a different link to an entirely different article that didn't have anything to do with the masons... and then tried to make it look like it did.

So, thanks for trying... but my point stands that it's just another example of your attempts to twist things toward your own ends.

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YOU posted the link. Are you saying that the other articles at the link don't count?

If a christian writes an essay that claims, in the course of their own religious studies, that jesus and mohammed were poker buddies that made a bet about who could get the most number of followers.... would that automatically make it true?

Of course not.

It's just an essay expressing one person's opinion. Not everyone will agree with it, and it doesn't automatically mean everyone from that person's organization supports their conclusions or believes the same thing.

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Then why are they advising other members to meditate on the symbols and USE other tools to discover deeper insight?

What does that have to do with my point? I was saying that the depiction of the curtain on the symbol wasn't even accurate... and even if it was, not every depiction of the sanctum sanctorum shows a curtain! If the curtain is such an important element, wouldn't you think it would be a prodominate part of every depiction?

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It's "looking behind the veil/curtain"...it means that YOU (Freemasons) have the ability to KNOW what God knows. If there is no curtain, that means that you have entered or are entering IN!

I already addressed the curtain... but if we're now talking about stairs... the stairs in the tracing board refer to the stairs in King Solomon's temple. It's particularly important in the second degree, where the lecture focuses on the stairs and what they represent (the three degrees of Freemasonry, the 5 senses, and the 7 areas of academia). I've never heard them compared or related to Jacob's ladder.

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I don't recall there ever being any stairs INSIDE the temple, Biblically.
Those tracing boards depict a ladder or a stairway to an opening in heaven. THAT is none other than Jacob's Ladder.

Of course their filled with symbolism! As I've stated before, they were originally used as visual aides of the lecturers, and they have since become artistic pieces to represent the various lessons and working tools associated with the various degrees.

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And it is the symbolism that is worrisome. If you know the Bible and the power of God, you can see the Biblical symbolism in those tracing boards.

What "malevolent means"? Once again, your twisting facts.

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The curtain is either drawn back or not there at all on those tracing boards. WE (humans)are not allowed behind the curtain!!! We are not allowed to SEE God. We are not Holy. It's symbolic of Adam/Eve's eye's being opened...eating forbidden fruit...believing a lie that we can be like God. That's what's malevolent about it.

So anything that teaches a moral value is the work of the devil? I think Aesop might disagree with you just a bit...

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On a conscious level, maybe that is what they say they are teaching you but on a subconscious level, those symbols are teaching you something altogether different!!!!

The essays by those Freemasons on that Freemason site VERIFY this fact.
They insist that Freemasons meditate on the symbols and PRACTICE esoteric, even occultic, things in order to become aware of the meaning of the symbols and their application!

{It's the same as when a Christian focuses on the Word of God. It is like food to our spirits. Things are revealed to us. What the Freemasons are doing is a false version of what God intends in this regard. It is not good.}


Here it is again:

http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.co...e_refused.html

Here is the author’s (32 degree Freemason named Peters) conclusion:

“Whatever the original provenance and impetus of Freemasonry, it seems clear that encoded within the rituals is a profound doctrine of spiritual illumination or Gnosis. With the application of tools such as gematria, isopsophy, temurah and notariqon, a wealth of otherwise hidden wisdom begins to reveal itself. Applying the lamp of focused consciousness on these symbols, the treasure chest opens.

Symbols may be thought of as a living, dynamic centers of energy. By focusing on them and taking them into deep contemplation, this energy is unlocked from within, revealing the Royal Art as a series of signposts in consciousness. By following these signs into meditation, we may eventually come away with a further, profounder understanding of ourselves and our position in the universe.”

Jester, here is a prime example of my last point (which actually PROVES the point)

http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/entered_apprentice_apron.html


This article describes the esoteric meaning of the lambskin apron in Freemasonry.

"As with all symbols of Freemasonry, our emblems are richly variegated, and what may appear as a straight-forward explanation may oftentimes contain deeper layers of meaning and symbolism as one contemplates the symbols. While the surface interpretations of our symbols teach a moral lesson, one may open up to deeper layers of interpretation with contemplation on the symbols, each layer building upon the previous one."


The article then jumps from it's "moral" meaning to...something altogether different!!



"The first layer of instruction within the white leather apron is that of the moral teaching implicit in the Craft degrees. It is clear then that this emblematic device of the Craft represents innocence, honor, and purity of life which is necessary for admission into the "Celestial Lodge". Masonry instructs us that it is a "system of morality veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols". It has further been defined as a "science which is engaged in a search after the Divine truth". (Mackay) Both of these may be seen as indicators of the ethical structure of Masonry. A simple layer of interpretation of the white apron indicates that it's placement at the waist is to purify the sexual instinct of man, which if left unchecked, has more often than not, resulted in errors of thought, word and deed. Thus the purity alluded to with the color and placement of the apron has a practical, ethical instruction."



"We have already seen that white is a symbol of purity. This color also represents the primal Godhead, which in the Kabala is referred to as sephia Kether, "the Crown". The white apron is worn at the position of the svadhisthana chakra, hermetically associated with the planet Mars in it's night house of the astrological sign of Scorpio. This refers to the occult Mars Force, which in Hindu yogas is represented as the coiled serpent of Kundalini which is said to lie dormant at the base of the spine. This mars force, or Kundalini, is the life force, that creative energy which is the very source and manifestation of life, and manifests naturally as the procreative power. On the tree of life, this is referred to as the sephira Yesod, the Foundation. The fact that the apron is white indicates that this force, which is natural, is to be purified and consecrated to the work of spiritual illumination; in short, it is to be dedicated to the work of the Divine, symbolized again by the white color acting as a "shield" at the position of the procreative center. This interpretation is not a call for abstinence, but rather for a disciplined and focused channeling of the procreative urge. This focus has been termed occult chastity, in which the procreative urges are dedicated to illumination, or to Deity."


For even more strange stuff, read on...

"The apron is traditionally made of lambskin, which may be associated with the astrological sign of Aries. Aries is the dayhouse - the illuminated position - of the planet Mars, even as Scorpio is the Night house or unilluminated position. The sign of Aries is associated with the head, and in the Hindu yogas with the sahasara chakra or thousand and one petaled lotus. Kabalistically this again refers to Kether. The lambskin apron thus shows that the serpent power, represented by Mars and residing in the genital region in its natural (or night) state, is to be lifted up towards the Crown (the illuminated or "day" state) by means of purification and consecration, resulting in spiritual regeneration and illumination. It is the work of the initiate to so purify and exalt this primal mars force, raising the kundalini up the spine so that the force enters the cranium, resulting in spritual consciousness. This is the work of regeneration, the Great Work of spiritual attainment. This may be seen as the symbolic creation of the Hexagram, or the Macrocosm."


And the weird conclusion of the matter....:


"It is through application of morality, in addition to the spiritual regeneration and redirection of the Mars force, that one may truly enter into that "Celestial Lodge" above, the majesty of the Divine, which in the Kabala is Kether, the "Crown". Knowledge of the esoteric significance of the apron acts as the initiated Key to unlock this mystery of Spiritual regeneration. It is then up to the individual Mason to so apply the Working Tools of our Craft to his physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual vehicles that the Light of the Celestial Lodge may indeed radiate into the Sanctum Santorum of the Master Mason's heart."





And you thought it was just a charity-loving Fraternal organization.....

HisdaughterJen said:

I don't agree.

People use symbols to convey a meaning. A "skull and crossbones" is associated with death. I don't think the "Eye of Ra" has anything to do with the afterlife, does it? It's a symbol for power...God-like power...isn't it?

What, exactly, does the hypothetical teenager expect to convey with having an "eye of Ra" stamped on his flesh? Symbols are a kind of language...a way to express or convey a meaning.

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Your kids obviously aren't teenagers yet...

Anyway, the Eye of Ra was seen as a symbol of power and indestructability. Some kings actually had it on their tombs as a way of protecting them in the afterlife. For a tattoo, it could symbolize power, strength, immunity, resiliance, or any number of other weird meanings a person wants to ascribe to it.

I'm actually considering getting a tattoo of a Feather of Ma'at. Ma'at was an egytian goddess that symbolized justice. It was said that even the gods were accountable to her. When a person died, their heart would be weighed against one of her feathers to determine if they were worthy of the afterlife.

Aside from the justice element, I like the meaning that, no matter how powerful you are, you still have to play by certain rules. But if I got that tattoo... it wouldn't automatically mean that I would start believing that there was actually some kind of supernatural being with feathers.

HisdaughterJen said:

Ok, let me try to be more clear...:

Freemasons could use a multitude of any number of symbols. They choose, as their main symbols, things that have supernatural meaning in the Bible or Biblically.

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Um... the main symbols of Freemasonry are the Square, the Compass, and the letter G.

HisdaughterJen said:

For example, if they want to use symbols from the Bible, why not use things that don't have supernatural meaning like a donkey or a bush or a multi-colored coat?

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Ok... how much meaning do you think they could get from a donkey, a bush, and a coat?

HisdaughterJen said:

Instead, they use things that have supernatural meaning like Jacob's ladder. The meaning is "heaven opening" or "ascending/descending" to heaven or "connection with God".

The "tree of life" means "eternal life" or "immortality".

The Holy of Holies means "God's dwelling on earth" or "connection to God".

The curtain at the Holy of Holies means "separation from God" and has deeper meanings in regards to the flesh.

Using "God", "Heaven", "Spirit", "Soul" in Freemason symbolism ALL points to the supernatural...things that are not of the earth.

Click to expand...

1) You still haven't established where masons refer to jacob's ladder.

2) You are transposing the concept of the acacia plant and the "tree of life". However, even if we make this leap, Freemasonry doesn't teach that the acacia somehow grants immortality.

3) We've discussed that actual definition of sanctum sanctorum, and it's application in masonry.

4) We've already established that the curtain is not an important part of masonry.

5) Unless you're prepared to say that every religion and philosophy that mentions the soul, god, or heaven is occultic, your point is meaningless.

HisdaughterJen said:

BUT it IS! That's the thing...

God is an omniscient, omnipresent Being with knowledge WAY beyond us.
The soul is part of your inner Being as well as the spirit. Both are supernatural.

Many of the symbols are being used to convey the same meaning that the Bible uses.

Click to expand...

Even for the limited number of symbols in masonry that even come close... what's the suprise here? Symbols generally retain their basic meaning through the years... regardless of their origin.

HisdaughterJen said:

But I didn't make that up. You think that it means "God" or "Geometry". Masons of higher degrees SAY that it means "Gnosis" or "Generation".

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Source?

HisdaughterJen said:

YOU posted the link. Are you saying that the other articles at the link don't count?

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Not if those articles don't pertain to masonry. It would be like linking to wiki, and then pulling up an entirely unrelated wiki page and pointing to it as if it were automatically related.

Just admit it... you twisted the truth toward your own end. In my book, you actually told a lie of omission. Good going.

HisdaughterJen said:

Then why are they advising other members to meditate on the symbols and USE other tools to discover deeper insight?

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Masons are taught to consider the symbols of Freemasonry (mostly the working tools) and think about how they impact their own lives. There is no specific "meditation" encouraged. As for "deeper insight", I'm not even sure what that is supposed to mean. I find "deeper insight" when I think about where I've been in life and where I'm going... it's called basic reflection.

HisdaughterJen said:

It's "looking behind the veil/curtain"...it means that YOU (Freemasons) have the ability to KNOW what God knows. If there is no curtain, that means that you have entered or are entering IN!

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Now you're just making stuff up again. As far as you're concerned, if it's there, it's sinister... and if it's not there, it's still sinister. Good to know you've made up your mind on the issue. It's a pity that you are so willing to assume the worst about other people.

...and people wonder why I find christianity humorous.

HisdaughterJen said:

I don't recall there ever being any stairs INSIDE the temple, Biblically.

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That's because it's just a legend! It's a fairy tale! Get over it.

HisdaughterJen said:

Those tracing boards depict a ladder or a stairway to an opening in heaven. THAT is none other than Jacob's Ladder.

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Yes... because they can't actually be stairs... that would just make too much sense. There must be a darker meaning here somewhere! Wait! There's a crack in the 2nd stair up! The crack must symbolize the devil is waiting on the second step! The crack is 2 inches away from the edge! That must mean the devil is 2 seconds away! There's a rabbit in the crack! Danger! Danger Will Robinson!



Seriously... do you get this paranoid about everything in your life? Or just Freemasonry?

HisdaughterJen said:

And it is the symbolism that is worrisome. If you know the Bible and the power of God, you can see the Biblical symbolism in those tracing boards.

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I know the bible... and I know what your beliefs say about god... and I also know how to think like a rational person... ergo, I know the tracing boards are harmless.

HisdaughterJen said:

On a conscious level, maybe that is what they say they are teaching you but on a subconscious level, those symbols are teaching you something altogether different!!!!

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Here comes the boogie man.

HisdaughterJen said:

The essays by those Freemasons on that Freemason site VERIFY this fact.
They insist that Freemasons meditate on the symbols and PRACTICE esoteric, even occultic, things in order to become aware of the meaning of the symbols and their application!

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Oh! So now they INSIST that Freemasons meditate on the symbols? I thought you said masons are only advised to meditate? See... you can't keep your own story straight.

HisdaughterJen said:

{It's the same as when a Christian focuses on the Word of God. It is like food to our spirits. Things are revealed to us. What the Freemasons are doing is a false version of what God intends in this regard. It is not good.}

Here it is again:

Click to expand...

Here's a little tip... of anything the masons did was even close to what christians do on sundays... I wouldn't have anything to do with it. Take that however you want.

HisdaughterJen said:

Jester, here is a prime example of my last point (which actually PROVES the point)

http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/entered_apprentice_apron.html


This article describes the esoteric meaning of the lambskin apron in Freemasonry.

"As with all symbols of Freemasonry...

And you thought it was just a charity-loving Fraternal organization.....

Click to expand...

And we're back to quoting essays from individual masons with their own individual interpretations. I'm not addressing these any more. I've told you over and over what they are, where they come from, and what they're really worth.

And do you see what you are doing...

In the light of overwhelming proof and evidence, you obfuscate. There is no way that all of these Freemason essays which say the EXACT same thing are "individual interpretations" BECAUSE they say the EXACT same thing!!!!!

I have shown Freemasons of higher degrees who have written EXACTLY the same thing in regard to the symbolism and rituals and you are still saying, in essence, "nuh-uh".

The last essay PROVED that the lower level Freemasons are taught that the symbols mean "moral" things ON THE SURFACE and that meditation on them brings to "Light" all kinds of occultic stuff....astrology, Hinduism, Kabala... you just haven't studied with them long enough to believe that's what they are teaching.

HisdaughterJen said:

And do you see what you are doing...

In the light of overwhelming proof and evidence, you obfuscate. There is no way that all of these Freemason essays which say the EXACT same thing are "individual interpretations" BECAUSE they say the EXACT same thing!!!!!

I have shown Freemasons of higher degrees who have written EXACTLY the same thing in regard to the symbolism and rituals and you are still saying, in essence, "nuh-uh".

The last essay PROVED that the lower level Freemasons are taught that the symbols mean "moral" things ON THE SURFACE and that meditation on them brings to "Light" all kinds of occultic stuff....astrology, Hinduism, Kabala... you just haven't studied with them long enough to believe that's what they are teaching.

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Yeah... it's tough to consistently defend paranoid viewpoints... much easier to just say your opponent is hiding something and walk away.

1) You cited essays from 3-4 masons... from an organization of approximately 5 million members.

2) You never ONCE provided documentation from any Grand Lodge to support any of these rediculous claims.

3) You have ultimately defaulted to the "you're not high enough to know" argument... which, as we have already discussed, is an impossible argument.... either you're not high enough to know better, or you're high enough to know, and therefore cannot be trusted. What funnier is that you use this argument as a way of setting yourself up as a better authority on the subject... and you're not even IN the organization, let alone high enough to know, yourself.

Good job dodging all the issues... hope that paranoia thing works out for you.

Freemasons will never admit what goes on in the upper levels. Even if you video tape one of their meetings of the highest level, they will deny it.

visionary said:

Freemasons will never admit what goes on in the upper levels. Even if you video tape one of their meetings of the highest level, they will deny it.

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Is this more "oogie-boogie", or are you just trying to say nobody will know?

Jester4kicks said:

Yeah... it's tough to consistently defend paranoid viewpoints... much easier to just say your opponent is hiding something and walk away.

1) You cited essays from 3-4 masons... from an organization of approximately 5 million members.

Click to expand...

Are you saying that the symbolism in Freemasonry has different meanings for different people?

2) You never ONCE provided documentation from any Grand Lodge to support any of these rediculous claims.

Click to expand...

I don't understand your argument. The people I quoted who wrote those essays are 32 degree Freemasons. Are you saying that they aren't members of a Grand Lodge? Are you saying that if the info doesn't officially come from a Grand Lodge statement, that it isn't true? If so, that's rediculous because of plausible deniability and admitted desires to keep things as "legends" or passing things on by word of mouth so that there is no evidence. It's all about OBFUSCATING.

If someone accuses the Freemasons of something, their fall-back position is ALWAYS, "there is no evidence to prove this or that" AND THEY WANT IT THAY WAY.

3) You have ultimately defaulted to the "you're not high enough to know" argument... which, as we have already discussed, is an impossible argument.... either you're not high enough to know better, or you're high enough to know, and therefore cannot be trusted. What funnier is that you use this argument as a way of setting yourself up as a better authority on the subject... and you're not even IN the organization, let alone high enough to know, yourself.

Good job dodging all the issues... hope that paranoia thing works out for you.

Click to expand...

I have proven with written evidence from more than one reliable source that there are levels to understanding of the symbolism in Freemasonry.

I have proven with written evidence from more than one reliable source that the surface meaning of the symbols does indeed teach "morality" as you have suggested.

I have proven with written evidence from more than one reliable source that the deeper meaning of the symbols involve the Kabala, the occult, astrology, Hinduism...among other things.

I have proven with written evidence from more than one reliable source that they are seeking hidden knowledge from God which they suspect was passed down to mankind from fallen angels.

Now, you can sit there and deny, confuse, and obfuscate until the cows come home but the information has been provided by way of evidence from the writings of FREEMASONS themselves!

Should I keep going? There's a whole lot more proof at that same site.

HisdaughterJen said:

Are you saying that the symbolism in Freemasonry has different meanings for different people?

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Well aside from the general statement that MANY symbols have different meanings for different people... what I'm saying is that there are the stated meanings the Freemasonry teaches, and then there are the various interpretations and essays that individual masons have written with what THEY THINK about the subject.

HisdaughterJen said:

I don't understand your argument. The people I quoted who wrote those essays are 32 degree Freemasons. Are you saying that they aren't members of a Grand Lodge? Are you saying that if the info doesn't officially come from a Grand Lodge statement, that it isn't true? If so, that's rediculous because of plausible deniability and admitted desires to keep things as "legends" or passing things on by word of mouth so that there is no evidence. It's all about OBFUSCATING.

If someone accuses the Freemasons of something, their fall-back position is ALWAYS, "there is no evidence to prove this or that" AND THEY WANT IT THAY WAY.

Click to expand...

The only bodies that can speak on behalf of Freemasonry itself are the Grand Lodges. Even then, they can only speak on behalf of Freemasonry in their own jurisdictions.

As for how "true" the essays are... I don't particularly care if they are true or not... they're still not the specific teachings of Freemasonry, itself.

As for saying there is no evidence to prove your accusations... that's because your accusations are rediculous. It is generally difficult to prove something when it isn't actually true in the first place.

HisdaughterJen said:

I have proven with written evidence from more than one reliable source that there are levels to understanding of the symbolism in Freemasonry.

Click to expand...

No, you haven't. You cited a couple essays written by individual masons about their own interpretations.

HisdaughterJen said:

I have proven with written evidence from more than one reliable source that the surface meaning of the symbols does indeed teach "morality" as you have suggested.

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Umm... ok, morality... moral lessons... I guess they're close enough...

HisdaughterJen said:

I have proven with written evidence from more than one reliable source that the deeper meaning of the symbols involve the Kabala, the occult, astrology, Hinduism...among other things.

Click to expand...

No, you haven't. You cited a couple essays written by individual masons about their own interpretations.

HisdaughterJen said:

I have proven with written evidence from more than one reliable source that they are seeking hidden knowledge from God which they suspect was passed down to mankind from fallen angels.

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No, you haven't. You cited a couple essays written by individual masons about their own interpretations. Then you spun THOSE interpretations into some weird oogie-boogie garbage.

HisdaughterJen said:

Now, you can sit there and deny, confuse, and obfuscate until the cows come home but the information has been provided by way of evidence from the writings of FREEMASONS themselves!

Should I keep going? There's a whole lot more proof at that same site.

Click to expand...

You can post as many as you like... it doesn't change the fact they are just interpretations by individual masons. Show me some Grand Lodge documentation... then we'll talk.

Jester4kicks said:

Well aside from the general statement that MANY symbols have different meanings for different people... what I'm saying is that there are the stated meanings the Freemasonry teaches, and then there are the various interpretations and essays that individual masons have written with what THEY THINK about the subject.



The only bodies that can speak on behalf of Freemasonry itself are the Grand Lodges. Even then, they can only speak on behalf of Freemasonry in their own jurisdictions.

As for how "true" the essays are... I don't particularly care if they are true or not... they're still not the specific teachings of Freemasonry, itself.

As for saying there is no evidence to prove your accusations... that's because your accusations are rediculous. It is generally difficult to prove something when it isn't actually true in the first place.



No, you haven't. You cited a couple essays written by individual masons about their own interpretations.



Umm... ok, morality... moral lessons... I guess they're close enough...



No, you haven't. You cited a couple essays written by individual masons about their own interpretations.



No, you haven't. You cited a couple essays written by individual masons about their own interpretations. Then you spun THOSE interpretations into some weird oogie-boogie garbage.



You can post as many as you like... it doesn't change the fact they are just interpretations by individual masons. Show me some Grand Lodge documentation... then we'll talk.

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But that's the problem, Jester!

Freemasons don't keep documentation of the meanings of rituals, legends and the symbolism BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION. It is passed along in practice (rituals) and by word of mouth (legends). The only thing that is "written" is the symbolism.

As a Freemason, you would be well aware of these facts. So, your request for evidence from a "grand lodge" is another attempt at obfuscation. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Freemasons rarely confirm or deny anything...they just say "there's no evidence of this or that". There's a reason why they do that (as stated above).

The symbolism speaks VOLUMES about the meaning. Now, I never would've guessed at that deeper meaning of the lambskin apron because I'm not versed in astrology, the Kabala, the occult, and Hinduism like Freemasons are in the higher degrees through Scottish Rite/York Rite, etc.

You are undoubtedly unaware of the deeper meanings because you have not joined the next level of club that teaches degrees 4 through 33. You have admitted that you are a 3rd degree Freemason. You have to join a new club to go higher. The 3rd degree Freemason is the base level for the "higher degree" clubs.


This quote verifies what I have suspected all along:

"Masonry instructs us that it is a "system of morality veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols". It has further been defined as a "science which is engaged in a search after the Divine truth". (Mackay)"
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/entered_apprentice_apron.html




Freemasons and the other orders which allow a Freemason to pursue higher degrees are seeking, not God, but the knowledge of God through alternate means than what God allows.

HisdaughterJen said:

But that's the problem, Jester!

Freemasons don't keep documentation of the meanings of rituals, legends and the symbolism BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION. It is passed along in practice (rituals) and by word of mouth (legends). The only thing that is "written" is the symbolism.

Click to expand...

Yeah... it's real hard to find out about the masons... not like the Grand Lodges have websites or anything...

Oh wait...
Massachusetts: http://www.massfreemasonry.org/index.tpl?SID=121596884011914690&NG_view=19

New York: http://www.nymasons.org/cms/masoniccompact

I'll make it easy! Here's even a Grand Lodge article about magic!
http://www.freemason.com/html/spotlight.php?spotlightID=9

...although I'm not quite sure if invoking lucifer is necessary to perform the cups & balls trick.

HisdaughterJen said:

As a Freemason, you would be well aware of these facts. So, your request for evidence from a "grand lodge" is another attempt at obfuscation. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Freemasons rarely confirm or deny anything...they just say "there's no evidence of this or that". There's a reason why they do that (as stated above).

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Interesting... so you don't believe Freemasons confirm or deny things... but you're willing to believe a few interpretations by a couple individual masons? You're then willing to assume those interpretations apply to all of Freemasonry?

Because if you're willing to believe an entire organization follows the interpretations of a couple guys... I've got some interesting literature from christians for you... would you prefer the rants that support murdering abortion doctors, the ravings of the folks that want to drag homosexuals for miles behind a truck... or should we skip directly to Mein Kampf?

I will say it again, the writings of a couple people do not dictate the beliefs of a multi-million member organization.

HisdaughterJen said:

The symbolism speaks VOLUMES about the meaning. Now, I never would've guessed at that deeper meaning of the lambskin apron because I'm not versed in astrology, the Kabala, the occult, and Hinduism like Freemasons are in the higher degrees through Scottish Rite/York Rite, etc.

You are undoubtedly unaware of the deeper meanings because you have not joined the next level of club that teaches degrees 4 through 33. You have admitted that you are a 3rd degree Freemason. You have to join a new club to go higher. The 3rd degree Freemason is the base level for the "higher degree" clubs.

Click to expand...

I've pointed out why this argument doesn't work. Repeating it over and over again doesn't make it any better.

HisdaughterJen said:

This quote verifies what I have suspected all along:

"Masonry instructs us that it is a "system of morality veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols". It has further been defined as a "science which is engaged in a search after the Divine truth". (Mackay)"
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/entered_apprentice_apron.html

Freemasons and the other orders which allow a Freemason to pursue higher degrees are seeking, not God, but the knowledge of God through alternate means than what God allows.

Click to expand...

Well, a "system of morality veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols" actually is the description that Freemasonry uses. Something wrong with that?

Regardless, here's the funny part about that quotation... the link you provided is for an article... the author of that article QUOTED another person's writing. The only citation he provided was (presumably) the author's last name, Mackkay. We have no way of finding out what context it was used in, how it was explained, or what that author meant by it!

I don't mean to insult them... but the guys that wrote the essays for that site would have gotten eaten alive by ANY college english teacher.

However... if THAT's who you really want to rely on for your authority of information... all the power to ya...

I wonder if any of you might be interested in viewing this thread...

Can a Christian be a Freemason???

Freemasons don't keep documentation of the meanings of rituals, legends and the symbolism BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION. It is passed along in practice (rituals) and by word of mouth (legends). The only thing that is "written" is the symbolism.

Click to expand...

I beg to differ. Just tell me what you want to know, which degree, be it York Rite or Scottish Rite, or just the Blue Degrees, and I will post a link to it so you can see it for yourself. I can even post links to a site showing how to do the grips and signs, and telling you what the “words” are for each degree, which are supposedly the “only secrets left in Masonry.” (Obviously, these are not secrets, either)

You are undoubtedly unaware of the deeper meanings because you have not joined the next level of club that teaches degrees 4 through 33. You have admitted that you are a 3rd degree Freemason. You have to join a new club to go higher. The 3rd degree Freemason is the base level for the "higher degree" clubs.

Click to expand...

Master Mason (3rd degree) is as "high" as degrees go in Masonry. The only "high" thing about the other degrees you mention is the number by which each is designated. In any degrees taken after the 3rd, the move is lateral, not vertical.

I can’t help but notice you actually refer to only one route of higher degrees when you speak of "4 through 33." There are actually two. Scottish Rite is the one with 4 thru 33, but there is also York Rite, which focuses on the New Testament. The “highest" degrees of York Rite have a specific requirement of a profession of Christian faith before one can enter.

"Masonry instructs us that it is a "system of morality veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols". It has further been defined as a "science which is engaged in a search after the Divine truth". (Mackay)

Freemasons and the other orders which allow a Freemason to pursue higher degrees are seeking, not God, but the knowledge of God through alternate means than what God allows.

Click to expand...

“Alternate means?” Where, pray tell, do you get that in what you quoted from Mackey? And since you like quoting Albert Mackey, shouldn’t you be reading ALL of Mackey, so you can report on a few other things he says that further define that search? For instance:

The very spirit of all of our lectures proves conclusively that when they were formulated they were designed to teach pure trinitarian Christianity, and while the Jewish scriptures did forecast the intermediary of a Christos, as all the ancient heathen mysteries did also, yet Jesus Christ as shown and demonstrated in the writings of the New Testament, was not understood by the Jewish writers of the Old Testament, nor by but very few of that faith since. The first three degrees taken in connection with the Holy Royal Arch, as they have always been with our Brethren of England, certainly show pure Christianity, as taught throughout the writings of the New Testament scriptures. (Mackey, History of Freemasonry, p. 1769)

Click to expand...

The symbolism speaks VOLUMES about the meaning. Now, I never would've guessed at that deeper meaning of the lambskin apron because I'm not versed in astrology, the Kabala, the occult, and Hinduism like Freemasons are in the higher degrees through Scottish Rite/York Rite, etc.

Click to expand...

Apparently you read only what you wish to see. At the very beginning of that article, the author clearly stated:

This paper is conjectural and speculative in the truest sense of the words. I am indebted to the various works of Paul Foster Case, Alphonse Louis Constant (Eliphas Levi), and the Indian sage Vivekenanda in particular for the seeds of Light they have implanted.

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"Conjectural and speculative in the truest sense of the words" ought to have been enough for ANYone to understand these are set forth as his opinions and no one else's. Two of the ones he mentions I have never even heard of, and thus have my doubts they are even Masons, the other one I know for sure was not (Eliphas Levi). He would better be described as one of those would-be Masons who belong to the groups described as either fringe Masonry or pseudo-Masonry.

Rev Wayne said:

I beg to differ. Just tell me what you want to know, which degree, be it York Rite or Scottish Rite, or just the Blue Degrees, and I will post a link to it so you can see it for yourself. I can even post links to a site showing how to do the grips and signs, and telling you what the “words” are for each degree, which are supposedly the “only secrets left in Masonry.” (Obviously, these are not secrets, either)



Master Mason (3rd degree) is as "high" as degrees go in Masonry. The only "high" thing about the other degrees you mention is the number by which each is designated. In any degrees taken after the 3rd, the move is lateral, not vertical.

I can’t help but notice you actually refer to only one route of higher degrees when you speak of "4 through 33." There are actually two. Scottish Rite is the one with 4 thru 33, but there is also York Rite, which focuses on the New Testament. The “highest" degrees of York Rite have a specific requirement of a profession of Christian faith before one can enter.



“Alternate means?” Where, pray tell, do you get that in what you quoted from Mackey? And since you like quoting Albert Mackey, shouldn’t you be reading ALL of Mackey, so you can report on a few other things he says that further define that search? For instance:




Apparently you read only what you wish to see. At the very beginning of that article, the author clearly stated:



"Conjectural and speculative in the truest sense of the words" ought to have been enough for ANYone to understand these are set forth as his opinions and no one else's. Two of the ones he mentions I have never even heard of, and thus have my doubts they are even Masons, the other one I know for sure was not (Eliphas Levi). He would better be described as one of those would-be Masons who belong to the groups described as either fringe Masonry or pseudo-Masonry.

Click to expand...

You are a Reverend? Where do you seek knowledge/wisdom of God?
From God or through the Freemasons?

You are a Reverend? Where do you seek knowledge/wisdom of God?
From God or through the Freemasons?

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I was called as a minister nearly 40 years ago. After several years running from the call, Jesus reclaimed my life and let me know the call had not changed. This time I answered the call. That happened over 20 years ago. I went through about ten years of preparation, and am now entering my 13th year of service as a Christian pastor. I joined the lodge only four years ago.

I'm sure you can do the math.