Islam Freedom of speech

[Godistruth1]

No, not everything in the Bible is a parable, of course. But when something is specifically introduced as being one, it looks very dishonest when you present it as though it is a literal command. I don't know if you just find individual verses out of context and then claim that they mean whatever you want them to mean, but that's not how to honestly engage with the text.

Care to comment what does God intend when he orders killing innocent babies and women and keep few virgins as his share of war? What will God do with virgins?

 

[Godistruth1]

Well, watch this and see how small minded they are!

She just told the truth. Same as you talking to atheists they are going to hell and Muslims as well.

 

[Godistruth1]

Those aren’t universal commands for violence, rather it’s the Bible recording a single event and retelling it as a tale.

Does bible not tell you to kill non Christians in general for just being non Christian/Jewish?

 

[Godistruth1]

Your comparing getting banned on a forum to getting beheaded, crucified, lashed or worse. Furthermore you’ve posted thread after thread here without a single threat of getting banned. So your prophet must be defended with death if someone teases him, is he a child that can’t take criticism or what? Jesus saying to murder all those that don’t want him to be king over is a parable, which means that Jesus will punish all those who reject him in the afterlife, it’s not an actual command to murder.

The point was intolerance. Read the comment I replied to

 

[Godistruth1]

Does a dead man (who may not have existed) need to be defended with death? It shows how Muslims are afraid of criticism and shows you can’t handle blasphemy.

Care to comment in below verse from new testament:

Matthew 15:4
For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

Just for cursing the punishment is death? And why don't you implement it when God commands it?

 

[dzheremi]

Care to comment in below verse from new testament:

Matthew 15:4
For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

Just for cursing the punishment is death? And why don't you implement it when God commands it?

You are doing it again -- there is context to this that explains what Jesus is saying and why He is saying it, but you ignore it to try to make it seem like the Gospel is just as violent as the Qur'an, or that it is hypocritical to point out Islamic violence when look at what the Bible says! You haven't shown what the Bible says in the first place, only that you don't know what you're reading because you don't actually read the text in the first place, just pick out verses that you claim show violence.

Here is the context of Matthew 15:4 -- beginning with the first verse of the chapter:

Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread." He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"-- then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "

+++

So you see that Jesus' point is that these Pharisees who are asking about His apostles supposedly transgressing some tiny point of the Jewish law are hypocrites, since the Pharisees themselves are guilty of willfully replacing the law with their tradition with regard to honoring one's mother and father. He is not saying "Yes, let's kill whoever does not honor his father and mother, because that's the law!" -- so once again, just like last time, this is not a commandment being issued -- but rather "Why are you speaking like this against my apostles supposedly in defense of the law when you are hypocrites and do not follow it yourselves, but replace it with other things?"

Again, your mutilation of the scriptures shows a very dishonest way of talking about things. You ought to stop it, because even if you don't like Christianity or Christians or believe in the Bible, the fact that you are attempting to criticize by completely mishandling the source material makes it look like you cannot lodge a legitimate complaint or criticism against others' beliefs without lying in the process, whereas those who criticize the Muslim approach to freedom of speech are doing so based on what Muslims like yourselves say about it, so we do not lie, nor do we have to lie. You are the ones saying "Yes, death for those who 'insult' Muhammad!", whereas Christ is not saying "death for those who do not honor their parents", or any of this other stuff that you are trying to turn this thread into, in a silly and transparent attempt to avoid answering for your own horrible views regarding what others can and cannot say, which do nothing but prove that Muslims cannot function in the world without turning into murderers for the sake of their stupid baby feelings about their equally stupid, equally murderous and intolerant false prophet.

 

[Barney2.0]

Does bible not tell you to kill non Christians in general for just being non Christian/Jewish?

Does it give prescriptive commands you mean, if so then no.

 

[Barney2.0]

The point was intolerance. Read the comment I replied to

Let me ask you the question again, are you seriously comparing getting banned on a forums, to being physically harmed, tortured, or killed?

 

[Barney2.0]

Care to comment in below verse from new testament:

Matthew 15:4
For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

Just for cursing the punishment is death? And why don't you implement it when God commands it?

This is a command from the Old Testament that Jesus was quoting not as a command to his followers, but to show that the Pharisees were hypocrites and didn’t even follow what they claimed to be preaching.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Is Islam opposed to freedom of speech and are the established authorities and media aiding them in stifling free speech in the UK and Europe?

There are a number of reasons to suspect that Muslims do not want a free debate and are actively trying to shut that debate down.

1) EDUCATION: As many as 2 decades ago I was warned not to criticise Islam as an Religious Education Teacher in the British school system for fear of provoking racism against Muslim students. No such similar warnings were given when I produced critical discussion worksheets on Christianity and on Atheism for example. If anything the situation is far worse now than then. The rewriting of history to describe the First Crusade as an act of aggression rather than a response to 400 years of Muslim aggression for example

2) MEDIA: The case of Tommy Robinson recently highlighted in FoxNews is a case in point of suppression of freedom of speech and abuse of the courts. Mr Robinson is neither a racist nor unlike many members of the Labour party an anti-Semite but he is repeatedly accused of hate crimes for criticising Islam and recently spent 2 months in solitary confinements as a result of the machinations of a kangaroo court inside the UK.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/5817330682001/

https://tommyrobinson.online/2018/03/asking-parliament-can-we-talk-about-islam/

Mr Robinson had his Twitter account cancelled for suggesting that Islam supported killing non Muslims. However Hamas and Hezbollah are still free to preach the same message on Twitter!

3) Mohammed Cartoons/Charlie Hebdo: Several years ago the Mohammed cartoons were a perfect example of how Muslims tried to shut down the debate about Islam by threats.

4) SILENCE ON CRIMES: There are innumerable examples of rape, child abuse, wife beating and support for terrorism in the Muslim community that are not being given the weight they deserve in the Muslim world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-15256764
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/telford-and-the-left/
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/britains-heart-of-darkness/

Many suspect that the political elite in Europe have no real clue as to the reality on the ground in working class communities who live with Muslims and interact with them daily. They believe that Islam is a religion of peace because they only interact with the silver tongued high class Muslims. Whether it is fear, dishonesty, antiChristianity, a complicity in money laundering of various corrupt Muslim leaders, the oil economy or whatever that has kept this elite so blind to the faults of Muslims in our midst for so long is a matter of discussion also. It could just be that the same hostilities towards the working class that were present in the BREXIT debate are also present in the class division over how to treat Islam and discuss Islam.

Given the above realities is Islam a religion that permits free discussion or not?

Because of where this is I'm making this one post and walking away. I don't care to debate. These are personal experiences.

I was a moderate Muslim (and I did practice, I was not in name only) in the United States - I am now Christian.

I was opposed to extremism, and I did speak out to some extent.

Is Islam itself opposed to freedom of speech? Yes. There are allowed some difference of opinion within Islam, but the basics are the basics and there is no criticism of it. That mind set carries with people as they come to the west, I'm not sure to what extent that will ever change.

I found opposition within the Muslim community, which is understandable.. but what I didn't understand was opposition from the political left. They are willing to make a Muslim woman their poster child for anything they deem politically expedient but they will degrade her and attempt to silence her as much as any Islamic extremist will.

I've had those who are politically left here in the United States tell me I didn't know anything about Islam when I was critical of Islam... nevermind I was the practising Muslim and they had never once picked up a Qur'an..

They will defend Islam as if their life depended upon it, and they will silence any one who opposes it, even Muslims themselves.

I couldn't understand it, I mean, the left claims to be defenders of all things free, but they are Islamic apologetics here in the West. Throw homosexuals off buildings? Oh that's not every one, how dare we declare there might be something fundamental within Islam itself that would cause the mindset that it would be okay, or wrong to criticize.

it's shocking, but if your a Christian then perhaps you believe there is a spirit over both groups, that no matter what they cannot and will not criticize one another. As Jesus said, a house divided cannot stand.

My conclusion is they are of the same house. Read: Matthew 12:22-28

Me? I moved out ...

But if your looking for all of what's wrong, look at the entire house here in the west. There is an entire agenda.

 

[mindlight]

Its strange how you give dates when your Bible is from dark age century. You are speaking like an atheist. If the book is from God does it matter how old it is? Or you believe Gods wisdom gets outdated as time passes?

Gods character does not change. The dark ages are mainly defined as the gap between the fall of Rome and the rise of medieval Christendom. It was in this interval that Islam arose.

Islam follows a principle of abrogation regarding alcohol for instance which can seem a little fickle. The later verses are meant to abrogate the earlier ones. Drink - dont drink!

A big difference between Islam and Christianity is that there were phases in Gods relationship with man that ultimately led to the fullest revelation of his incarnate presence on earth. Islam is probably most comparable to the Mosaic covenant ,given to the Hebrews, with its focus on laws handed down directly by God from the mountain.

In the fuller revelation that Jesus demonstrated there is a recognition that man cannot perfectly obey Gods law in his own strength. The law serves as a signpost to mans imperfection and he needs Gods mercy above all. However by directly trusting in God revealed in Jesus we have a way of salvation opened up for us to the very throne of God and to that mercy. Gentile cultures have come to God via the route of faith and direct trust in the Jewish messiah and without the need for the ceremony of the Jewish temple worship or the food laws that set Israel apart as a nation.. Thus when civil law has been formed or influenced by Christians it is mainly in response to an understanding of the mercy and respect for our humanity implicit in the incarnate God- man Jesus. Law is an incidental expression of that relationship and of the Gentile cultures in which its formed. It is arguable that law has never perfectly represented that relationship in a gentile culture and it definitely does not do so in the modern West.

In essence our God does not shout at us angrily from a distance. He shared our humanity and context , gave the possibility of mercy and therefore a space for respecting human freedom. Against that background Christian understandings of the value and precise character of civil law can be far more flexible accomodating consideration of context, motivation and circumstance.