Freedom from Sin: Overcoming the Wet Paint Principle (the complete version)

[justbyfaith]

So we are in agreement that the letter of the Old Testament law reflects the moral requirement of holiness that is in the heart of God.

 

[justbyfaith]

Also, were you going to answer what I said about 2:21 of the document? I asked you to do that first; and if you don't answer it, all you say that may seem to contradict what I say may have a reconciliation in the scriptures, if we are both coming from a biblical perspective. And I know that I am coming from such a perspective.

 

[justbyfaith]

@Jason0047, Proverbs 16:25 is the word of the Lord to you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Romans 3:23 says, For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

So I guess you are saying all will perish? I agree...the exception to the rule being the rapture of the church...the blood of Christ brings forgiveness so we will not perih eternally.

No. Sin brings spiritual death to God's people just like it did in the Garden of Eden. When Paul says as many that have sinned without the Law shall persih without the Law, he is referencing the word "law" as meaning the 613 Laws given to Israel. In other words, Paul is saying that those before the Written Law had sinned based on a different kind of set or rules (i.e. rules that were written upon the heart of man or his conscience - See Romans 2:14-15). Paul was not speaking against Law in general but circumcision salvationism. For in Romans 3:1, Paul says what advantage is there in cirumcision? In Galatians 5:2, Paul says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Circumcision is a part of the Old Law and it is not a part of the commands given to us in the New Testament (or New Covenant).

Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 is not in reference to a believer's present walk with God. It is only in reference to their past life or the lives of those who reject God. How so? Well, Romans 3:11 says that there is none that seek after God and none that have knowledge. Meaning, if you want Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 to be about the believer in their present walk with God, then you also have to take Romans 3:11 to be in reference to the believer's walk with God, too. Meaning, you must believe that believers who have accepted Christ do not seek after God and do not have any knowledge of the things of God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, were you going to answer what I said about 2:21 of the document? I asked you to do that first; and if you don't answer it, all you say that may seem to contradict what I say may have a reconciliation in the scriptures, if we are both coming from a biblical perspective. And I know that I am coming from such a perspective.

My time is limited and I do have a life outside of the forums. I will get to your posts when I see fit and not in when you say. I want to address the whole of your OP because you made a big deal out me and another person in not replying to the whole thing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Still, we all need something to catch us if we fall.

Deuteronomy 33:27 says, The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee, and shall say, Destroy them.

The examples I have shown prove that sin is separation from God. The remedy of spiritual death is not as you suggest; But the remedy of spiritual death is confessing and forsaking sin (See Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, Matthew 12:41, Jonah 3:6-10).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Jason0047, Proverbs 16:25 is the word of the Lord to you.

In reference to your belief this would not be true. Why? Because your belief does not line up with the context of Proverbs 16:25. Let's look at the context and see if it fits your belief that says that we can break God's laws and still be saved.

3 "Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.
4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil."
(Proverbs 16:3-6).

Versee 6 says the fear of the LORD, men depart from evil. In your belief, there is no reason to fear God because you said you can break God's laws and still be saved. Departing from evil is also optional in this life. If one fails to do so, they are still saved in your book.

Verse 3 says commit your works unto the Lord, and your thoughts will be established. But you are saying that one's works can be sinful and it will still be okay.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1:1-2:14 of the document contain what I identify as the truth spoken of in 2:15. Therefore, instead of picking apart singular truths one by one, you should try to deal with the concept of 1:1-2:14 as a whole if you really want to try and destroy the truth. 1:1-2:14 should be taken as one giant paragraph wherein every verse does not stand alone but is to be taken in its context, and the whole paragraph as an entire statement, as though it were all one verse.

I fail to see how the whole of argument proves that you are right (vs. looking at your mini arguments or points). If one link in your chain is broken then the whole chain is not whole and it is broken. I will deal with your post as I see fit and not as you say. If what you say is correct, it would stand up to any kind of scrutiny whether it be in detail or as a whole. Saying that I should deal with your post as a whole is to paint too broad a brush stroke so as to obsure the truth of God's Word. What exactly are you saying? Can you sum up it with three verses? Anyways, it doesn't matter, I will address the whole of your post piece by piece when I have the time (and not when you say). I have a life outside of the forums and I can be very busy sometimes.

In any event, may God's love shine upon you today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, we all know that the law is a schoolmaster to bring men to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25). How can it accomplish this purpose if it "is no more"?

Paul was talking to the Galatian church and how they have been compelled to be circumcised.

"But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised" (Galatians 2:3).

Circumcision is NOT a part of the commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers. Circumcision was a command that was a part of the Old Testament. Paul is making a point by saying that the Old Law was like a school master that can bring Galatians unto to Christ. Paul was talking to Galatians and he was not really thinking of us in his letter here. For why would Paul condemn the Law in general if he and other followers of Christ were to give us even more laws or commands from God? If the point was not to be under Law, then we would see no more commands or laws given to us in the New Testament. But that is not what Paul and or other followers of Christ taught. Yes, one can say that a person (being an unbeliever) who breaks God's laws can be led to Christ by faith as a result. But the reality is that Paul was still talking about the Old Law to Galatians and not all law in general to believers today. For he was talking to Galatians and he mentioned "circumcision" as a part of the context in Galatians 2.

 

[justbyfaith]

No. Sin brings spiritual death to God's people just like it did in the Garden of Eden. When Paul says as many that have sinned without the Law shall persih without the Law, he is referencing the word "law" as meaning the 613 Laws given to Israel. In other words, Paul is saying that those before the Written Law had sinned based on a different kind of set or rules (i.e. rules that were written upon the heart of man or his conscience - See Romans 2:14-15). Paul was not speaking against Law in general but circumcision salvationism. For in Romans 3:1, Paul says what advantage is there in cirumcision? In Galatians 5:2, Paul says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Circumcision is a part of the Old Law and it is not a part of the commands given to us in the New Testament (or New Covenant).

Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 is not in reference to a believer's present walk with God. It is only in reference to their past life or the lives of those who reject God. How so? Well, Romans 3:11 says that there is none that seek after God and none that have knowledge. Meaning, if you want Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 to be about the believer in their present walk with God, then you also have to take Romans 3:11 to be in reference to the believer's walk with God, too. Meaning, you must believe that believers who have accepted Christ do not seek after God and do not have any knowledge of the things of God.

My point was, all WHO HAVE SINNED apart from law shall also perish without law. All have sinned...therefore all will perish. If you HAVE SINNED(past tense) you will perish...period. Of course the blood of Jesus brings forgiveness...and yet we do not obtain the blood of Jesus by doing good works (see Romans 4:4). God will not owe salvation to anyone...He offers it as a free gift.

 

[justbyfaith]

Also, circumcision is not of the law but of the patriarchs, a fact which you seem to be willfully ignorant of.

 

[justbyfaith]

Paul was talking to the Galatian church and how they have been compelled to be circumcised.

"But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised" (Galatians 2:3).

Circumcision is NOT a part of the commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers. Circumcision was a command that was a part of the Old Testament. Paul is making a point by saying that the Old Law was like a school master that can bring Galatians unto to Christ. Paul was talking to Galatians and he was not really thinking of us in his letter here. For why would Paul condemn the Law in general if he and other followers of Christ were to give us even more laws or commands from God? If the point was not to be under Law, then we would see no more commands or laws given to us in the New Testament. But that is not what Paul and or other followers of Christ taught. Yes, one can say that a person (being an unbeliever) who breaks God's laws can be led to Christ by faith as a result. But the reality is that Paul was still talking about the Old Law to Galatians and not all law in general to believers today. For he was talking to Galatians and he mentioned "circumcision" as a part of the context in Galatians 2.

We are under the law (see 1:2-7, 1:17-28, 2:15-20, 2:24, 36, 3:1-23, 26, of the document, but we are also not under the law (Romans 6:14, document 1:1,3-5, 3:24-25,and more). We are under the law to Christ in that it is written in my heart and governs me from the inside; we are not under the law but under grace in that it no longer condemns me from the outside (follow my line of thinking by reading Galatians 5:18).

 

[justbyfaith]

I fail to see how the whole of argument proves that you are right (vs. looking at your mini arguments or points). If one link in your chain is broken then the whole chain is not whole and it is broken. I will deal with your post as I see fit and not as you say. If what you say is correct, it would stand up to any kind of scrutiny whether it be in detail or as a whole. Saying that I should deal with your post as a whole is to paint too broad a brush stroke so as to obsure the truth of God's Word. What exactly are you saying? Can you sum up it with three verses? Anyways, it doesn't matter, I will address the whole of your post piece by piece when I have the time (and not when you say). I have a life outside of the forums and I can be very busy sometimes.

In any event, may God's love shine upon you today.

Just be sure to understand every singular verse in light of the context of the whole. Your argument so far is to say that the whole document is unrighteous because a few verses SEEM unrighteous to you. I contend that the whole of the document is righteous. If Romans 4:5 were not in the established word of God, you would also attempt to tear it apart because it seems unrighteous to you. Judge not according to th appearance, but judge righteous judgment. Also, brothers and sisters in Christ have an attitude of submission to each other (see Ephesians 5:21). So either you are saying I'm not a brother or you are being disobedient and therefore you are an imperfect sinner. Which one is it?

 

[justbyfaith]

In reference to your belief this would not be true. Why? Because your belief does not line up with the context of Proverbs 16:25. Let's look at the context and see if it fits your belief that says that we can break God's laws and still be saved.

3 "Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.
4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil."
(Proverbs 16:3-6).

Versee 6 says the fear of the LORD, men depart from evil. In your belief, there is no reason to fear God because you said you can break God's laws and still be saved. Departing from evil is also optional in this life. If one fails to do so, they are still saved in your book.

Verse 3 says commit your works unto the Lord, and your thoughts will be established. But you are saying that one's works can be sinful and it will still be okay.

You have missed the reality of what I am saying in the document. It should be clear that if anyone relishes a heart of disobedience, they are not saved and those verses (1:1-5) of the document don't apply to them (see document 2:23-24 as

 

[justbyfaith]

The examples I have shown prove that sin is separation from God. The remedy of spiritual death is not as you suggest; But the remedy of spiritual death is confessing and forsaking sin (See Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, Matthew 12:41, Jonah 3:6-10).

A person is not redeemed from spiritual death by forsaking and confessing sin alone. The blood of Jesus is the key ingredient. You can turn over every new leaf but if you don't put your faith in the finished work of the Cross it will avail you nothing. It is repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

My time is limited and I do have a life outside of the forums. I will get to your posts when I see fit and not in when you say. I want to address the whole of your OP because you made a big deal out me and another person in not replying to the whole thing.

What other person?

 

[justbyfaith]

Also, for the most part you seem to not be answering with scripture but with your own teaching about scripture; and to be frank with you, your teaching lacks balance. I'm not worried about too many people believing you over me because if they did they would be subjecting themselves to the condemnation trips of the devil (see Revelation 12:10-11). I thank God that the blood of Jesus covers over all my sin! (see Romans 4:1-8).

 

[justbyfaith]

To be saved, you must admit that you are a sinner (1 John 1:8) see also Philippians 3:21, Romans 7:18.

 

[justbyfaith]

(continued from #154): You jumped the gun. Proverbs 18:13 says, "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." And btw, Proverbs 16:25 does indeed apply to you.

 

[justbyfaith]

Just so you know, 2:36 interprets 2:24.