Free Will

[enoch son]

If we have free will then please explian the following vers.
1. Eph. 4-6 "one God and Father of ALL who is OVER ALL and through ALL and IN ALL."
2. 1 Cor. 15-28 " And when all things are subject to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be ALL IN ALL".
3. Phll. 2-10 "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,"
4. Rom. 14-11 "for it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God."
I do not see free will here?

 

[victoryword]

Read in context, none of those passages are in dispute against free will. There are way too many areas of the Bible that allude to the will being free so a few passages that are taken out of their setting cannot refute it.

Here are a few Bible passages that make a solid case for free will: Gen. 4:7; Deut. 11:26-28; 30:19; Joshua 24:15, 22; Isa. 66:3; Jer. 3:22; Matt. 11:28; 19:17; 23:37; John 5:40; 7:17; Acts 17:30-31; 26:20; Rom. 2:14-15 (NCV); 6:16-17; Heb. 7:25; James 4:5-8; Rev. 3:20 and many others.

 

[Theophilus7]

If we have free will then please explian the following vers.
1. Eph. 4-6 "one God and Father of ALL who is OVER ALL and through ALL and IN ALL."
2. 1 Cor. 15-28 " And when all things are subject to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be ALL IN ALL".
3. Phll. 2-10 "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,"
4. Rom. 14-11 "for it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God."
I do not see free will here?

I do not see any difficulty here. You can look at it two ways:

(1) There is coming a time when all of creation will acknowledge that God is the Almighty. But even though the sinner is confronted with this fact, compelled to acknowledge God's existence, forced to admit His divine rights, He continues to choose rebellion in His heart... even though there are no more reasons left to hide behind. The mind of man will be laid naked before the throne of God. It will bow. Sinners will praise Him. Evil men will acknowledge Him for who He is. And yet when every last shred of their defenses has been blown away, when every last argument is refuted, when light has flooded the darkness and the most rabid atheist is left without a fig leaf for covering, shivering and on his knees before the feet of Jehovah, he will still refuse to yield what little power of self-determination remains to Him, because sin is ultimately irrational (it only uses reason as a subterfuge). The Bible does not compel us to believe the sinners will, in their hearts, submit their wills to God's will.

(2) You also need to take into account the possibility of a cessation of free will for those who continue to refuse the love of God. If you do your research carefully, you will find that when people continue to harden themselves, God will eventually "finish them off" (like Pharoah), hardening them beyond salvation. When the clay does not cooperate with the Potter's hands, He turns it into an ignoble vessel. He makes it into an object to contain His wrath. Read Romans 11 carefully in conjunction with Jeremiah. When people blaspheme the Holy Spirit, His power to convict them of sin is withdrawn, and there is no possibility of repentance as a consequence. When people choose to delude themselves, God sends them a powerful delusion. In the end, when the clay will not willingly cooperate with the potter, He forces it into an ignoble vessel into which the terrible river of His wrath will pour and overflow for eternity.

Oh God! Thank you for Christ in me!

 

[enoch son]

Victoryword; I see no free will statements in the new test. vers. starting in acts only repent. jugdement. And everything by God's will Rom. 2-14-15 and so on.
Theophilus7; Your point one, is only someones idea of what will happean Ch. vers. please. On the other side they could fall to there knees because of the love. As for your second point God harden pharoah heart not pharoah to show God glory.
Thank for your anwers but i'm still not sold. I'm thinking it's more like choice. But God knew before the foundation of the world. We are a chosen people aren't we?

 

[Ben_Hur]

Is it possible that only Adam had free will and that the calvanists are right about us not having it?

(I'm not a calvanist....I don't think.....)

 

[LynneClomina]

Is it possible that only Adam had free will and that the calvanists are right about us not having it?

yup. before we are saved we are slaves to sin and satan, after we are saved God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure....

before we are saved, we belong to the enemy...
after we are saved, we belong to God...

where is there are we "free"?

 

[enoch son]

Ben Hur: Adam had a stack deck. The tree and the serpent WERE A PLANT.
Lynne; We do became a slave to RIGHTEOUSNESS don't we.
As for the vers. I qouted please read the vers. around them by all means. Most interesting. I had someone tell me the knees bow because it's the end. And I ask, of what eternity? It would seem to me it would be just starting.

 

[PatrickM]

Victoryword; I see no free will statements in the new test. vers. starting in acts only repent. jugdement. And everything by God's will Rom. 2-14-15 and so on.

Hello, enoch son! You've *chosen* some very interesting points . Could Acts 7:51 be a free will statement? "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit" They must be free to resist the HS, else this is a vain verse.

I'm thinking it's more like choice. But God knew before the foundation of the world. We are a chosen people aren't we?

For a choice to be valid one must be free to go either A or B, else it is not truly a choice.

God did know before the foundation of the earth, but what did He know. And knowing something is entirely different than being the cause of something. I can watch, from a distance, my son skating, and by the way he is leaning, I can know he's about to fall, but I am not the cause of his fall, am I?

 

[enoch son]

Jesus said there father was the devil didn't He? They were acting in there nature. Remeber there is a haz over their eyes place there by God. Stephen is just to cool he's one of my favorites. He was loaded for bear that day.

 

[Theophilus7]

Theophilus7; Your point one, is only someones idea of what will happean Ch. vers. please. On the other side they could fall to there knees because of the love. As for your second point God harden pharoah heart not pharoah to show God glory.

If you read my post more carefully, you would have noticed that I pointed you to Romans and Jeremiah for reference. However, I am happy to give you some more specific directions:

Regarding Pharaoh, you are mistaken. The Bible clearly states that he hardened his own heart in Ex. 8:15; 8:32; 9:34. It is in chapter 10:1 that the Bible tells us that God hardened his heart this time. This illustrates the principle very well. People begin by hardening their own hearts, and there comes a point when God finishes them off, forming them into a vessel of His own design to bear His wrath. They will serve His purpose in this way, even if they were unwilling to serve Him as an act of free will. This means God gets all the glory in the end. What a God you serve, enoch son - one who is big enough to grant free will and still get all the glory!

The same principle is demonstrated in 2Thessalonians, where God sends a "powerful delusion" to those who did not believe the truth. Observe that the sending of the delusion is subsequent to their prior rejection of the truth (2Th. 2:11). They choose to persist in ignorance and folly, and God finishes them off, plunging them into deception.

Again, the same principle is alluded to in Jeremiah. The clay refused to run in the potter's hands (18:4), so he reworked it into "another vessel" instead - a vessel for wrath and judgement.

It is this principle that Paul is speaking about in Romans which Calvinists take out of context. Because Israel hardened themselves, because they wouldn't run in the potter's hands, the Potter hardened them Himself and reworked them into "another vessel". No one will have the right to say to him, "why did you make me thus?", because God as Creator had the right to do this to those who would not cooperate. If we will not be used willingly for God's purposes, God will still make use of us just the same, and throw us in the fire when He is finished with us. Not a pleasant prospect.

So you see the clay is given its chance to freely cooperate - to flow in the Potter's hands and willingly submit to His designs. And when it refuses to do this, God will force it into a different shape. People can and do resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51), but there comes a point where sin will not be allowed to hold the universe to ransom and thwart God's purposes. He will use us just the same, with or without our cooperation.

When we interpret the Bible holistically, we usually find that difficult passages resolve themselves, enoch son. It is better to build our theology upon the whole counsel of God. What I have tried to share with you has, I think, successfully incorporated Arminian and Calvinistic emphases without contradiction or scripture twisting.

Hope this helps.

 

[enoch son]

Theophilus; Let's talk about vessels.
2 Timothy 2-19-21 " Nevertheless the foundatioion of God standeth sure, having this seal. The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are NOT ONLY VESSELS OF GOLD AND OF SILVER, BUT ALSO OF WOOD AND EARTH; AND SOME FOR HONOR, AND SOME FOR DISHONOUR.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour , sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."
vs.19 we see a- Foundation is already know and sealed
vs 20 we see -Vessels of both honor and dishonour. By what you have written the dishonour are repotted or throw out. Not so they are both in the house.
vs 21 we see -It is written that the good works were prepared from the foundation of the earth that we should walk in them.
God aready knows the vessels.
As for firer, is it what we have been taught? Remeber the burning bush did not burn up. Our God is a consuming fire. (heb. 12-29).
1 Cor. 3-12-15 "Now if any man builds upon this foundation gold, silver,percious stones,wood hay,stubble;
13 Everymans work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by firer; and the fire shall try EVERY MAN'S work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall recieve a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss; BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED: YET SO AS BY FIRE."
It seems to me that the firer is in control. And what control do we have over a potter's wheel? It is the potter hand's that are in control. Also note that a pot is put into the firer after it is done.

 

[Theophilus7]

I am beginning to think you have an axe to grind, enoch son . You haven't really engaged with my post or my exegesis.

With regards to your response, perhaps you could restate your post more clearly and explain exactly what you mean. I began a response, but was unsure whether you were really implying what I thought you were. I'd rather not waste time on a straw man. If you could pad you post out with some more detail, I shall try to find the time to respond to it. Oh - and could you try to present it a little better. It wasn't easy to read.

Bye for now.

 

[enoch son]

Frist I have no axe to grind. I just see that your posts have nothing to do with free will? The bottom line is the potter is in control. This doctrine of free is not in the book. I have sit and heard it for year's and took it at face value. But I can blow holes in it without even trying. I'm after God's face. I'm going to remove anything that stop's me from getting there. Sense I have not gotting to the point of the high calling I have made up my mind that the foundation is wrong. So Let's look at the foundation and free will is a good starting point. If this doctrine is wrong then alot of doctrine we fall. I believe that God is a greater love then I ever thought. If there is a line between free will and choice or whatever one calls it I want to know. THIS THEAD IS NOT FOR THE WEAK. I'M AFTER MEAT!

 

[enoch son]

I'm still looking the answer to ALL IN ALL. What does it mean?

 

[PatrickM]

I'm after God's face. I'm going to remove anything that stop's me from getting there.

Sounds like choices to me. Again, and I assume your not "of the devil", yet you want to excercise choice, free will, whatever, to do this. Do you mean, once we are regenerated, then we have free will? True free will to even turn away from God, if we choose?

If this doctrine is wrong then alot of doctrine we fall. I believe that God is a greater love then I ever thought. If there is a line between free will and choice or whatever one calls it I want to know.

Do you REALLY want to know? I sense you are not truly open to being wrong here. I know you say "prove it to me", but it's kinda like you're saying there is nothing you've heard, or will ever hear, to change your mind. Almost a deceptive challenge, is it not?

I'm just confused over your statement re: God's love. To make us robots, captive to which ever side we fall on (Satan's or God's), is hard to swallow as an act of love. Like holding a person prisoner, and demanding they love you, at gunpoint?

THIS THEAD IS NOT FOR THE WEAK. I'M AFTER MEAT!

Don't forget, 1Cor13, you can have all the answers, but if YOU don't have love, it is all for naught.

 

[Trish1947]

Enoch Son quoted

:

If this doctrine is wrong then alot of doctrine we fall. I believe that God is a greater love then I ever thought. If there is a line between free will and choice or whatever one calls it I want to know.

Why?

 

[enoch son]

Pat M. I have find the word I'm looking for INSTINCT. It is not free will. But the instinct of the spirit to get back to the creator. Does a salmon have a choice or free will? Does not the nature of a thing drive it to get home? 1 Peter 1-23.
As for the love. I only know of one being that knew the fullness of that love and He die for us all. Thats the love I'm after it is the nature we have been born into. If the doctrine I have been taught is wrong then how can one follow a path that does not lead to it (love)? Or how can one come into the fullness of the Godhead or divine nature if it is not a giving thing by grace? Not by will or deed. Is not the death of free will the begianing of life in the spirit are we not gladly slaves? Does not the word call us salves? I believe that it is a state of being beyond man fallen understanding. These are just thoughts that are release by you asking question. Thank you.
Trish 1947. Something is stoping the great awaken of the chruch. Could it be what we think we know? I will take it out ripe it up and see if it will stand up. Something in my spirit is telling me to push on. Could it be flesh? Could it be the words to deep to utter? I do not know. But my spirit knows and it long for something more. I must stop now I hope this makes sense.

 

[PatrickM]

Pat M. I have find the word I'm looking for INSTINCT. It is not free will. But the instinct of the spirit to get back to the creator. Does a salmon have a choice or free will? Does not the nature of a thing drive it to get home? 1 Peter 1-23.

Using the animal world as an example is incorrect. They have no spirit, and no sin, and according to Scripture were not the ones given the choice to eat or not eat of the tree of life.

As for the love. I only know of one being that knew the fullness of that love and He die for us all. Thats the love I'm after it is the nature we have been born into. If the doctrine I have been taught is wrong then how can one follow a path that does not lead to it (love)?

Again, by choice. Why is it so unbelievable that God gives us the choice to choose Him or not? It does not diminish His power, if He voluntarily, under no outside compulsion, chose to make us thus?

Or how can one come into the fullness of the Godhead or divine nature if it is not a giving thing by grace? Not by will or deed.

Indeed, if this is so, how can there be any different beliefs? Why aren't we forced, by implanted intuition, to do anything else but come into the fullness?

Is not the death of free will the begianing of life in the spirit are we not gladly slaves? Does not the word call us salves?

How can I gladly do anything, if I am forced to do it? Indeed, the word does call us slaves, but the word is bond-servant, one who voluntarily chooses to be a slave to his/her master.

Trish 1947. Something is stoping the great awaken of the chruch. Could it be what we think we know? I will take it out ripe it up and see if it will stand up.

How can this be, if our free will is dead? How can we stop the will of God, if it is not within our being to do otherwise?

Something in my spirit is telling me to push on. Could it be flesh? Could it be the words to deep to utter? I do not know. But my spirit knows and it long for something more. I must stop now I hope this makes sense.

The moving in your spirit by the Holy Spirit is correct, and you have chosen to yield your member to such moving.

 

[enoch son]

So it's chosen instinct vs free will. Paul said doesn't nature itself tell you it wrong. So in your opinion Jesus has not saved all men.

 

[Trish1947]

enoch sonSo it's chosen instinct vs free will. Paul said doesn't nature itself tell you it wrong. So in your opinion Jesus has not saved all men.

It is truly stated the Jesus is the savior of all men, but especially those that believe.

But it also says, that 3000 we're added to the church that day, as many as the Lord shall call.

The Bible also says that it is in every man to know that there is God.


Is it not understandable that if He calls you, you have the choice to accept or not to accept. Here is free will.

But not all are called, so now are we back to predestination by God. He already knows the ones that He calls and will accept.

So Jesus is the savior of all men, and if He called none, It would not nullify Jesus as the savior of all men, if He chose not to call anyone. But makes him the savior of all men, by what He did.

Yes, man has free will, but what it boils down to, he already knows what your will is. Your basic "instinct" or will, was that you wanted to know God. So He called you.

DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE? Sounds like I'm babbleing.