Free Will

[WarriorAngel]

How about this? We have free will and God knew, before He created, that we would abuse it, but deemed it worthwhile to create anyway. In this scenario, God is not the author of evil but He determined to bring a greater good, such as the Redemption and all that means for humankind, out of the evil He knew would occur. We're actually radically free to behave as we will, limited only by whatever physical limitations are an inherent part of our creatureliness, so that our freedom consists in the freedom to create our own morality, or bow to God and the laws He's created for us.

Was going to reply - but this was simplified enough.
Good answer.

 

[plainswolf]

But God already has a plan for each and everyone of our lives from birth to death. He made us to choose right and wrong throughout our lives. He made us as sinners.

He did not make us as sinners, but made us - Adam and Eve - with Original Grace. He gave them a command - not to eat the fruit - they chose to do it any ways of their own free will. And because they did this, they fell from original grace by committing Original Sin. Because they did this- all their future offspring are also born with Original Sin - fallen human nature - but not a fallen free will. Sin has terrible consequences, and not just for the ones who commit it. Sin has a ripple effect like a stone thrown into water. It is mankind who chose sin over grace, not God. [/quote]

He could of made us not be sinners if that were his will. However, it was not and we have sinned throughout our lives but not by our own free will but by God's plan for us in creating each and everyone of us. We were bound to sin because that was the choice that God made for us in creating us. Our sins fit into his plan of redemption through his Son, however, not everyone follows this plan of redemption and go through life sinning and not knowing God's plan of redemption. Should these people be held accountable for their sins, the very sins in which their creator created them to commit or should there be a fountain of mercy that extends to all men regardless of what they believe?

I would hope that God's mercy is more pure than anyone else's; and that he would permit the nonbeliever to drink from this font.

I think it may help you to understand is that there are two senses to the Will of God;

1. God's Positive Will - That all mankind love Him, obey Him and arrive in Heaven.
2. God's Permissive Will - mankind sins against Him.

It was not God's positive will that we sin. But God allowed us to sin through His permissive will. Now the plan of redemption comes. God allows bad things to happen for a greater good. We may not be able to comprehend this, but it is the reason God allows evil to happen.




+++

 

[benedictaoo]

But God already has a plan for each and everyone of our lives from birth to death. He made us to choose right and wrong throughout our lives. He made us as sinners. He could of made us not be sinners if that were his will. However, it was not and we have sinned throughout our lives but not by our own free will but by God's plan for us in creating each and everyone of us. We were bound to sin because that was the choice that God made for us in creating us. Our sins fit into his plan of redemption through his Son, however, not everyone follows this plan of redemption and go through life sinning and not knowing God's plan of redemption. Should these people be held accountable for their sins, the very sins in which their creator created them to commit or should there be a fountain of mercy that extends to all men regardless of what they believe?

I would hope that God's mercy is more pure than anyone else's; and that he would permit the nonbeliever to drink from this font.

We are bound to sin and it can feel like we are slaves to it and for many of us, we are slaves to sin but man chooses it because man had free will to let it enter into the world, man still has it now to either follow God or not.

It really is our choice no matter how high that deck is staked against you.

Now some people have the deck staked so high against them their freedom to do what is right is impeded. Sin is such a powerful thing that we are born with but God's grace is even more powerful but as where sin feels easy and natural to fall into, grace, to choose rightly, goes against our grain, so its hard, but not impossible. We need to work at doing what's right where sin just comes naturally.

Adam and Eve choose sin out of fear and ignorance and becuase they were tricked... we choose sin for those same reasons, but on top of that we are weak, weak, weak so it makes our choice that much more difficult.

When it comes to morality (the 7 deadly wounds of sin we were given)- we are just not rational people, that is why its just not that easy to choose what God says not to do.

You would not think twice or have to be convinced to not go out stark naked to the grocery store... your rational when it come to that, but to not eat the entire bakery on a whim just becuase you walked by it and saw it- you need to talk your self off the ledge to not do that... becuase its what you want- what God said we can't have is what we naturally want.

Its what sin did to us and our freedom to chose rightly, it gave to our moral choices some serious almost fatal blows, but not fatal, almost fatal.

So we are weak, irrational and we will sin becuase we are hard wired to but we are still free in there some where and with some education and grace and us accepting that grace in return we can over come... it will be hard as heck, man is made to feel he is bound by his passions and that they run him but there is a power and strength we can find in Christ to over come it.

It sucks but it is what it is... God knows what He provided us before and after the fall was enough for us to choose rightly. Our intelligence He gave us and our rational thought to know right from wrong and to want to choose it so we can have a better way of life but this also comes with Choosing Him and that is a far more trickier thing to do than just staying away from sin.

 

[benedictaoo]

No dark period here.

I am limited in my flesh. I have to eat or I die. I have to drink or I die. I get sick. I grow old. My mind fades. My heart gives out. The air leaves my lungs. So many things could go wrong. The flesh is a wretched and miserable condition and damned are those people that depend upon it.

It's like being wrapped up in fire. But a man must walk through fire to be saved.

but the power to over come lies in Christ showing us the way... Its not as dramatic as you make it.

Its kinda simple, by Adam and Eve not obeying what God said, the world fell. period. That is the whole answer to the secret of the universe.

This is a fallen word and we are fallen ppl living in this fallen world.

Fallen people living in a fallen world- not a good combo.

Personally, our nature was damaged but not destroyed. Exteriorly, the world was also damaged. Natural Disasters, sickness and death entered so wen you take a disordered passions and combine it with a fallen world, look out.

You drink- you get hooked- you get hooked- you drink some more- you drink some more- your liver fails- when it fails- you die and your liver fails becuase sickness and death entered into the world along with the fall of man choosing bad stuff. This is all apart of the consequence of our actions.

On a large scale, its original sin... on a small scale in our own lives, its a mini original sin.

But its sin- sin is what prevents us from feeling free. Grace and God is what has us exercise our freedom and when we choose to do what is right- then we feel free.

 

[Lily_Among_Thorns]

True true.

If i could use a remote to control ppl i would be quite happy and a lot less stress in my life.
There again, God would be remote controlling me so i dont know if i would be the only one allowed to remote control the jerks in life.

Maybe i am a jerk and someone wants to control me. [hush Bene]

Just adding in on your wisdom.

You don't think that God has already planned out every little detail of your life? You don't think that you were entirely created from thought to action? Every little detail that you are you has been created from beginning to end.

Do me a favor and when you finally confront God, to find out if you're on remote controll ask him if you have free will. Wanna make a bet of what he will say? I bet you he will say, I am the All. The All came out of me and through me All things are attained.

 

[Lily_Among_Thorns]

We have a calvinist in the house.

No, a Thomas Christian. Baptised Catholic.

 

[Lily_Among_Thorns]

No they most certainly DO NOT! open a science textbook please! Dunno why but I remember the priest phrase: "the spirit blows where it wants".

You just went 2+2=4. Spirit blows. Wind blows. Wind goes where it wants. NO IT DON't!

Nature most certainly DON't HAVE FREE WILL! I've seen only one tree kill orks n move n talk n walk and thats ENTS IN LOTR!!!

It is God who commands his creation from the spectacular to the invisible. He parted the sea for the Jews. Jesus even commanded the raging winds to calm and they did. This is just the spectacular, however, God wills his creation throughout; from the wind blowing to the sun shining.

But the question is does man have free will? I believe he does not.

JOHN 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

If everything is made by God then so are thoughts and actions. These things pertain to free will. What I'm saying is that God has created our lives in their entirety, from beginning to end, good and bad. Every bit of ourselves is created by God, our will and our choices; whether we choose good or evil.

 

[Lily_Among_Thorns]

Well in Genesis 2:16 it says this: "And the LORD God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden.'" If that isn't God granting some type of freedom to man then what is it? There really is no universal definition of free will that everyone accepts. Some take to the libertarian view of free will, others to compatible view, and even then some Christians don't accept free will at all. That said free will needs to be defined before it can be spoke of.

In the Garden when God granted Adam freedom, he was free to the extent that he could choose to eat from any other tree in the Garden but the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Freedom in that sense means the ability to act and choose how we want to without any external or internal factors forcing or preventing us. That entails a second type of freedom which is in relation with moral accountability -- the ability to mentally comprehend the reasons and motives for our actions and choices, and that they have consequences either beneficial or harmful.

So when asked was it a choice man made I don't see any other being that did indeed choose to eat from the tree aside from Eve who tempted him in the first place. Sure the serpent tempted them but ultimately it was man who decided to eat the fruit, as there was no external or internal factor forcing or preventing them to eat it and it was what they wanted, and as they understood that by eating it death would ensue, it was their choice and they are responsible.

That makes the origin of sin unrelated to God's will.


Without it there would be no need for redemption as all would be born into grace instead of sin. Now redemption was the will of God because He knew man was going to choose to sin and continue to sin, which is not God's will.


So in order to have free will according to you it seems as if we must be as self - sufficient as God, though I would say just because we are not doesn't mean we have no free will at all. Hunger and thirst are things that we physically need to survive, and without them we would eventually die. That we cannot not be thirsty or hungry doesn't mean we don't have free will. Again, free will means that we have the capability of even doing something first, and as we do not normally have the capability to not be hungry, free will doesn't apply to such. It is a physically necessity that we eat and drink fluids and not something we are capable of ceasing to do. What I mean is that we cannot not experience hunger, but perhaps we are able to resist that hunger.


Our inability to perform physical impossibilities brings up an interesting point though. Limitations are a factor but it may depend on the limitation in question, as again just because we cannot choose to not be hungry doesn't mean wouldn't have free will. We choose what to eat, what to drink, etc.


I don't see why not, but I don't see the need to 'shape' one for dishonor when we are capable of that on our very own without any aid.

God knew the choice that Adam and Eve would make from the beginning. That is why he planted the tree of Knowledge between good and evil. He knew they would eat from it and so that is why he gave it to them. God was never surprised at their choice (don't forget he is omniscient). He gave them the tree so that they would choose to eat from it because he knew from the beginning that they would, hence that would be their purpose--to commit sin and fall from grace. That is the way God created it. Don't think he didn't know beforehand that they would not choose to eat from it. This was God's plan because this is what happened. And to think that God did not plan this to happen means that you believe God lost control of his creation. God did not lose control of his creation. This was his intent. His will. Not Adam and Eve's. Nothing interferes with God's plans for his creation. To think so means that you believe there are forces more powerful than God. The fall of Adam and Eve is the story that God tells of his creation, in his Will, in his Plan.

That's all this life is a story between good and evil. That is God's story. That is his plan and his will. It is no other way. Do you think that God lost control of his creation or do you think that God knows exactly what he created? Everything is his will. Not one thing exists without him.

JOHN 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Everything is God's will. Every part of this story is God's will. If God willed it we could have been born into grace. We could be born with out sin. He is the creator after all. Rather, it is his will to be born into sin and find things like redemption and mercy. It was his will that Adam and Eve fall from grace and eat the fruit. Because not one thing happens without him making it happen. That includes my own will, my thoughts and actions.

Romans 9:21
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

 

[benedictaoo]

You don't think that God has already planned out every little detail of your life? You don't think that you were entirely created from thought to action? Every little detail that you are you has been created from beginning to end.

Do me a favor and when you finally confront God, to find out if you're on remote controll ask him if you have free will. Wanna make a bet of what he will say? I bet you he will say, I am the All. The All came out of me and through me All things are attained.

No God does not have every thing planned out. We plan it out by our choises. Gods knows how it will end and does not interfere-- usually- He can but ordinarily doesn't.

Not the same as having no free will.

 

[benedictaoo]

No, a Thomas Christian. Baptised Catholic.

Technically there is no such thing. Its just another way of saying Calvinism... you do not ague the Catholic understanding of either school of CATHOLIC thought- Thomas or Augustine. What you present is John Calvin's erroneous understanding of Thomas...

You have been answered and you can not debate the official teachings of the Church whether you or a Catholic or not.

 

[fhansen]

God knew the choice that Adam and Eve would make from the beginning. That is why he planted the tree of Knowledge between good and evil. He knew they would eat from it and so that is why he gave it to them. God was never surprised at their choice (don't forget he is omniscient). He gave them the tree so that they would choose to eat from it because he knew from the beginning that they would, hence that would be their purpose--to commit sin and fall from grace. That is the way God created it. Don't think he didn't know beforehand that they would not choose to eat from it. This was God's plan because this is what happened. And to think that God did not plan this to happen means that you believe God lost control of his creation. God did not lose control of his creation.

Of course God knew what would happen, but free will consists of His allowing the will of creation-us and angels-to oppose His will. Otherwise He willed every incidence of rape, torture, etc. to occur. But He didn't-He willed our freedom.

 

[Nietzscheiswrong]

Nature has free will.
I think the weeds in my garden have a mind of their own.
God doesnt micro manage.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

a pantheist?

-.-

only who has a brain got a mind... only humans got free will. other mammals just react to stimuli. Humans can repress their instincts animals can't.

 

[elopez]

God knew the choice that Adam and Eve would make from the beginning. That is why he planted the tree of Knowledge between good and evil. He knew they would eat from it and so that is why he gave it to them. God was never surprised at their choice (don't forget he is omniscient). He gave them the tree so that they would choose to eat from it because he knew from the beginning that they would, hence that would be their purpose--to commit sin and fall from grace.

So essentially you are saying that God wanted man to sin. The only thing with that though is that it directly contradicts what Scripture attests of God's nature, so that would either tell me you are wrong and God didn't intend for man to sin, or that Scripture is contradicting. So, which sounds more rational? That you have an incorrect image of God. Let's look at what Scripture says.

James 1:13 says this, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." If God tempts no one, then how can you say that God placed the tree in the Garden so that they could sin? Again what you describe is God tempting Adam and Eve, whereas that couldn't be further from the case.

1 John 1:5 states, "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." If there is no evil or sin in God's nature He wouldn't want to bring sin about in any fashion.

You see from these two verses alone we know your conclusion is off base. God did not want first man to fall from grace even though He knew it was going to happen. Knowledge does not necessarily equate to desire.

That is the way God created it. Don't think he didn't know beforehand that they would not choose to eat from it. This was God's plan because this is what happened. And to think that God did not plan this to happen means that you believe God lost control of his creation. God did not lose control of his creation. This was his intent. His will. Not Adam and Eve's. Nothing interferes with God's plans for his creation. To think so means that you believe there are forces more powerful than God. The fall of Adam and Eve is the story that God tells of his creation, in his Will, in his Plan.

I have never doubted that God is omniscient and knew from eternity that our first parents would sin. What I doubt is that that means God wanted it to happen that way. Does that mean God lost control? No, it means that God isn't going to force people to obey Him, which is a good thing. Does that mean those who He doesn't force is more powerful than Him? No, as that really bears no sense at all. God has power over all of creation but that doesn't mean He is going to assert that power all the time.

When it comes to God's will there are a few different aspects to consider. There is God's sovereign will which is alluded to in verses such as Ephesians 1:11. This aspect of God's will does not mean He causes every single event on earth to happen, but at the very least must permit it to happen.

Then there is God's revealed will. God's reveled will consists of those commands He has given us that we find in Scripture. For example it could be said that we know it is not God's will to steal as that is one of the commandments, but as God is not going to physically force us not to steal, there is still that possibility of man being able to rebel. So, as I stated earlier just because we are able to rebel against God does not, for one second, imply that we have over - powered Him in any way.

That's all this life is a story between good and evil. That is God's story. That is his plan and his will. It is no other way. Do you think that God lost control of his creation or do you think that God knows exactly what he created? Everything is his will. Not one thing exists without him.

I think God knows what He created, nor do I think He has lost control just because there is sin. If everything is His will all the murders, rapes, thefts, and all the other evils are God's will. It would be contradicting of you to say that God's will is for one to not steal and to not murder, yet it is His will that those things happened.

JOHN 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Everything is God's will. Every part of this story is God's will. If God willed it we could have been born into grace. We could be born with out sin. He is the creator after all. Rather, it is his will to be born into sin and find things like redemption and mercy. It was his will that Adam and Eve fall from grace and eat the fruit. Because not one thing happens without him making it happen. That includes my own will, my thoughts and actions.

Did God creates sky scrappers? What about cars and trains? Obviously God did not create literally everything on earth or else we wouldn't call those things 'man - made.' This is what I take to mean that nothing exists without God, as those things would not exist if not for God creating man and endowing him with reason and such. I view sin the same way.

It is not God's will that we are born into sin, in fact I would say it's really no one's will. It isn't God's choice, and it's really no one's choice but it was the choice that our first parents made and it affects us too.

 

[Davidnic]

There is a view called Middle Knowledge. God knows all of the options and how man will decide but allows us to decide as we do. But He turns the outcomes toward the good of His plan. But He makes us all to love Him. Not to sin.

God did not want man to sin, He was aware of what would happen, not because He made it happen..but because He can see all time and space. People have free will because love not freely chosen is not love.

But God will turn all things to good, by using the free willed choices others make toward Him and good to fulfill His plan. But He forces no choice on anyone. God made man, not intending for sin to happen or making it so...but He allowed people to have the free will to choose to turn away. Which is essentially sin.

God could will we were born with grace...and when we lose it again through sin...like every single one of us would? What then. Continual discord. Only Christ fixes it, makes it anew.

Even though God could have simply fixed things; make us born with grace...the dogmas and theology as laid out shows how the wound in our relationship was lovingly "repaired and reknit" and healed. All the parts of the fall were Redeemed and rewoven. I find it all amazingly beautiful. It was not magic, it was the miraculously beautiful effort of God reaching out to us and allowing humans to play a part as much as they could. God did not wave His hands and make it all better. He made them human and got them dirty, toiled and bloody as an example to show us how to live and fix things in our own relationships. That it takes effort.

Fulton Sheen said:

What concerns us now is the restoration of these gifts through another act of freedom. God could have restored man to himself by simply forgiving man's sin, but then there would have been mercy without justice. The problem confronting man was something like that which confronts an orchestra leader.

The score is written and given to an excellent director. The musicians, well skilled in their art, are free to follow the director or to rebel against him. Suppose that one of the musicians decides to hit a wrong note. The director might do either of two things:

either he might ignore the mistake, or he might strike his baton and order the measure to be replayed. It would make little difference, for that note has already gone winging into space, and since time cannot be reversed, the discord goes on and on through the universe, even to the end of time. Is there any possible way by which this voluntary disharmony can be stopped? Certainly not by anyone in time.

It could be corrected on condition that someone would reach out from eternity, would seize that note in time and arrest it in its mad flight. But would it still not be a discord? No, it could be made the first note in a new symphony and thus be made harmonious!
​

A symphony starting over and over with discord after discord or one where original sin is the first note because the great Redeemer we have. God did not make us for sin, but it was freely chosen. But from that...an amazing good He brings.

So God does not intend sin, but He works around it all. The purpose of Adam and Eve was never to commit sin. They were made to love God, not to sin. If they were made to sin, then they were not made to love God. And since we know they were made to love God, because it is the reason we all are made...then their purpose was not sin. In fact the Church is clear that their purpose was not sin and they were not made for that.

God was not surprised but He did not make them to mindlessly carry out a role that was counter to His own being. He decided to make them in His image because He loved them and made them for relationship with Him. He knew, because of middle knowledge, what they would do. But He did not decide to make them for that...but He knew what they would do. That is different from making them to do it. He made them able to choose Him, but they did not. They freely could have and had an equal chance to do so.

They were made for love and relationship with God. They chose self and no relationship with Him. He then reached out to redeem.

But they were not made to sin. Or to carry out the role of sin.

Adam and Eve had the same chance to accept God's will that the new Eve...Mary did. They chose wrong. She chose right. Her choice was free as well...or it would be meaningless.

Mary could have said no. She did not, God knew what she would do...and He made her for relationship and she chose relationship. But the first parents were made for relationship and chose self. They were not made for self and sin.

 

[Davidnic]

Where in the bible does it say that God gave man free will? By a choice? Was it a choice that man made? Or was it a choice that God willed? Wouldn't man's choice to sin be another stroke of the brush to creation?
Without it there would be no beautiful redemptive process. Redemption is the will of God and if redemption is the will of God then so was man's fall in order to make way for redemption. What will do we really have?

If I truly had free will I wouldn't be so dependent upon the limiting creation around me. If I had free will I could decide to not be thirsty or hungry anymore but I can't because I lack such will due to the limitiations placed upon me by my creator. Limitations are a factor but if you think about it everything becomes a factor and therefore limits my free will. I'm here to say that everything is willed by the creator. Every little facet of life comes froms him even our own wills, thoughts and actions. Good and evil are all rooted in a holy God, even sin is. All of creation is a manifestation of his will. We have no choice. All we have is his influence to shape us.

Does the potter have enough power over the clay to shape one vessel unto honour and one unto dishonour?

Free will is not the free license to do anything you please; even against physics. Limitations are not a part of free will.

Free will is the free will to love and accept God or to reject Him. It is the freedom to be all that we are made to be or less. And everyone is made to love God and can choose to do so or not.

It is not the freedom to do anything or have no limits. That is not free will.

Our thoughts and actions are not willed, they exist by His will not controlled by it. Or else God is the author and performer of evil. And that is directly opposed to Church teaching.

We exist by His will, free by nature of made in His image. God does not create us and destine us to do evil. He calls us to Good and we reject His will or participate in it.

 

[Davidnic]

Every bit of ourselves is created by God, our will and our choices; whether we choose good or evil.

If what you say is the case it means that God makes some men for Reprobation. This is specifically against Catholic teaching. Just so you know where you are going with this, it is not a Catholic place. So take the time to seriously look at what people are saying.

 

[WarriorAngel]

You don't think that God has already planned out every little detail of your life? You don't think that you were entirely created from thought to action? Every little detail that you are you has been created from beginning to end.

Do me a favor and when you finally confront God, to find out if you're on remote controll ask him if you have free will. Wanna make a bet of what he will say? I bet you he will say, I am the All. The All came out of me and through me All things are attained.

He created me, but as His parable suggests - He gave each of three talents - some given more. Some multiplied the talents but the lazy did not.

This parable shows us He gives, we cooperate or we dont.
Its our choice.

It is God who commands his creation from the spectacular to the invisible. He parted the sea for the Jews. Jesus even commanded the raging winds to calm and they did. This is just the spectacular, however, God wills his creation throughout; from the wind blowing to the sun shining.

Because it was asked of Him.

But the question is does man have free will? I believe he does not.

If we didnt have free will then this debate wouldnt happen.

JOHN 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

If everything is made by God then so are thoughts and actions. These things pertain to free will. What I'm saying is that God has created our lives in their entirety, from beginning to end, good and bad. Every bit of ourselves is created by God, our will and our choices; whether we choose good or evil.

No He did not make us chose to do evil.
Why would He die for us if He didnt want us?

Even on our deathbeds we can chose to turn to Him and be forgiven.
Or not chose Him.

He said He wants all.

Its erroneous and UN-Catholic to suggest we dont have free will and this heresy that St Ireneaus spoke out against....in the second century. About 140 AD

Chapter 37 Men are possessed of free will, and endowed with the faculty of making a choice. It is not true, therefore, that some are by nature good, and others bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], How often would I have gathered your children together, and you would not, Matthew 23:37 set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, But do you despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But according to your hardness and impenitent heart, you store to yourself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God. But glory and honour, he says, to every one that does good. God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

​

If what you say is the case it means that God makes some men for Reprobation. This is specifically against Catholic teaching. Just so you know where you are going with this, it is not a Catholic place. So take the time to seriously look at what people are saying.

indeed

 

[benedictaoo]

Free will is the freedom to choice rightly- when we chose sin, we are in bondage, we are not free.

We are then not free to love God or one other becuase of our choice to sin... not becuase God hates us, not becuase we aren't one of the special people and He didn't pick us out of the line up to love Him.

God created us in His image and likeness and God's will is free and so, so is ours.

He made us for love, for Himself, OUT of love...all of us. He is love, its not just what he feels, its what He is, He is love.

Love is creative, its gives, it shares, its not a dormant feeling- its a real living thing that life comes from it... so that is how we we're created, out of God's great love and the love, that action, we have in us that the fall did not destroy and it comes straight from God- its God's love in us... God in us.

as the saying goes, love makes the world go around. Love is what keeps us all moving- its an action- it is creative. Just like God.

So there is no, God made certain ppl this way and others that way... get off of that. That's wrong.

We were all made out of love, for love and we all seek to be loved in return. Its in every last one of us. This is the essence of man and God and the fall in no way destroyed that.

What can destroy that is SIN, not God's will but our choosing SIN-- when we choose to sin for what ever reason.

We are made in God's own image and likeness. Love is not love if its is not given freely. God freely made man out of His love... and man can return it freely and when you truly love someone-- what do you do? You honor them, worship them and respect them and obey them, hence marriage vows... all wrapped up, centered in God's image and likeness, which is love... when we love, we are like God.

and FIY-- worship as in adore, not worship as in bow down to... thank you.

God made us a certain way... to live in the garden worry free problem free and to commune with God directly.

The fall changed that, by the sweat of our brow w will earn our keep, pain added to the child bearing and rearing I might add... etc.

Life is not fun... fall did that.

and it wounded our passions, they are disordered, so our free will choices become a moral dilemma between what is right and what is wrong and we are totally irrational when trying to do what's right.

We can easily justify what is wrong and we can easily think what wrong is right and whats right is wrong. This is where man is not free... he is free with God's help and light and grace. and when we choose to do right, with help and guidance, then we are totally free.

So there you have it folks...

and WA- nature does not have free will. ???

Nature is governed by the atmosphere and it can be random but that's not free will-- nature does not have intelligence and rational thoughts to choose what its going to do.

Come on now... when Jesus said the wind blows where it will, it was an expression... the wind does not literally choose to go where it wants. It does not will to go north, west, east or south.

 

[AMDG]

Come on now... when Jesus said the wind blows where it will, it was an expression... the wind does not literally choose to go where it wants. It does not will to go north, west, east or south.

But it *is* free and all of nature is free. (It is not controlled by some "meanie" in the sky.) And it's also true that we have free will to act for good--our good and that of our neighbor. When we don't, it's not because God chooses that we don't. Read the theologian, Dr. Scott Hahn.

 

[benedictaoo]

But it *is* free and all of nature is free. (It is not controlled by some "meanie" in the sky.) And it's also true that we have free will to act for good--our good and that of our neighbor. When we don't, it's not because God chooses that we don't. Read the theologian, Dr. Scott Hahn.

A weed is free to grow wild in your garden if you do not weed it out but the roots determine which direction based on how it was planted... not becuase it choose to grow this way or that way... the wind blows due to the atmosphere. Not becuase it thinks, gee, I'm going to blow east today...

This is where y'all are losing ppl so stop. please.