Free Will

[Lily_Among_Thorns]

Where in the bible does it say that God gave man free will? By a choice? Was it a choice that man made? Or was it a choice that God willed? Wouldn't man's choice to sin be another stroke of the brush to creation?
Without it there would be no beautiful redemptive process. Redemption is the will of God and if redemption is the will of God then so was man's fall in order to make way for redemption. What will do we really have?

If I truly had free will I wouldn't be so dependent upon the limiting creation around me. If I had free will I could decide to not be thirsty or hungry anymore but I can't because I lack such will due to the limitiations placed upon me by my creator. Limitations are a factor but if you think about it everything becomes a factor and therefore limits my free will. I'm here to say that everything is willed by the creator. Every little facet of life comes froms him even our own wills, thoughts and actions. Good and evil are all rooted in a holy God, even sin is. All of creation is a manifestation of his will. We have no choice. All we have is his influence to shape us.

Does the potter have enough power over the clay to shape one vessel unto honour and one unto dishonour?

 

[WarriorAngel]

Lemme give you an example you may understand.

I know a woman who lives with her bf [puke] and he hides the phone from her, he refuses to let her have a car, he makes her pay for him when they go out... and basically stalks her if she isnt with him.

Right there - do you think she is happy and loves him?

Behind his back she loathes him. She wants to leave him but genuinely fears he will find her and stalk her and he has money he has used for ill purposes before, like when he had some guys car blown up [he got a million dollar settlement years back] because the guy stopped by to see her.
Not a bf or anything, just to say hi,.
Because she isnt allowed to talk to guys.


THAT is lack of freedom, lack of free will.

God wants our love, if we dont have free will we will not love Him.

 

[benedictaoo]

Lives with her B/F (puke)?

anyway... free will pertains to the moral... is not an ability to do what ever you want. Its not license.

Its just God is not going to interfere with anything we choose morally speaking.

Its our life and we will live it how ever we want.

True freedom of our will is the freedom to choose rightly.

Its being free from our desires and passions where we can choose to do right.

The deal with Jesus is, he came to give us His grace so we can call upon that and find the strength and ability to say no.

when we can say no to our depravity then we are truly free.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Where in the bible does it say that God gave man free will? By a choice? Was it a choice that man made? Or was it a choice that God willed? Wouldn't man's choice to sin be another stroke of the brush to creation?
Without it there would be no beautiful redemptive process. Redemption is the will of God and if redemption is the will of God then so was man's fall in order to make way for redemption. What will do we really have?

If I truly had free will I wouldn't be so dependent upon the limiting creation around me. If I had free will I could decide to not be thirsty or hungry anymore but I can't because I lack such will due to the limitiations placed upon me by my creator. Limitations are a factor but if you think about it everything becomes a factor and therefore limits my free will. I'm here to say that everything is willed by the creator. Every little facet of life comes froms him even our own wills, thoughts and actions. Good and evil are all rooted in a holy God, even sin is. All of creation is a manifestation of his will. We have no choice. All we have is his influence to shape us.

Does the potter have enough power over the clay to shape one vessel unto honour and one unto dishonour?

You are not limited. Just seek and He will assist you.
O, and if you can, do so without doubts.

See my sig.

I live by this rule - and havent been left unaided or abandoned. Somehow He helps the moment i seem to ask... maybe its because my tiny fraction of faith and my prayers keep the door way open to Him to enter at all times.

When doubts come a knockin [like you are suffering just for this moment] pray. Run to His aid.

What father would hand his son a scorpion if he asked for a fish..?
If we who are not good can do these things, how much more will the Father in Heaven do for those who ask? [with their hearts]

I understand the dark periods, really i do and i think you entered into one, but seek the Holy Spirit's graces and let Him heal you and trust. Yes trust above all things.

Praying with you. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Lives with her B/F (puke)?
.

Yeah Bene, i hate to see a woman not only being reduced to a nobody without any freedoms - but i also hate to see ppl living in sin.
So sue me. Its your free will to do so.

 

[AMDG]

Oh, don't forget, that when God gave us free will, He gave free will to *everyone and everything*. So your neighbor has free-will to help you or not, to give you a drink of water or not, and all of nature itself is free to do it's thing--the wind blows where it may, hurricanes go where they want, so do tornados, etc.

The answer to evil in the world *is* free-will--ours and natures.

 

[benedictaoo]

Yeah Bene, i hate to see a woman not only being reduced to a nobody without any freedoms - but i also hate to see ppl living in sin.
So sue me. Its your free will to do so.

You can puke all you want, I don't care...

 

[WarriorAngel]

You can puke all you want, I don't care...

Then why put a question mark on the end?
You asked.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Oh, don't forget, that when God gave us free will, He gave free will to *everyone and everything*. So your neighbor has free-will to help you or not, to give you a drink of water or not, and all of nature itself is free to do it's thing--the wind blows where it may, hurricanes go where they want, so do tornados, etc.

The answer to evil in the world *is* free-will--ours and natures.

True true.

If i could use a remote to control ppl i would be quite happy and a lot less stress in my life.
There again, God would be remote controlling me so i dont know if i would be the only one allowed to remote control the jerks in life.

Maybe i am a jerk and someone wants to control me. [hush Bene]

Just adding in on your wisdom.

 

[Wet Lippard]

We have a calvinist in the house.

 

[Nietzscheiswrong]

Oh, don't forget, that when God gave us free will, He gave free will to *everyone and everything*. So your neighbor has free-will to help you or not, to give you a drink of water or not, and all of nature itself is free to do it's thing--the wind blows where it may, hurricanes go where they want, so do tornados, etc.

The answer to evil in the world *is* free-will--ours and natures.

No they most certainly DO NOT! open a science textbook please! Dunno why but I remember the priest phrase: "the spirit blows where it wants".

You just went 2+2=4. Spirit blows. Wind blows. Wind goes where it wants. NO IT DON't!

Nature most certainly DON't HAVE FREE WILL! I've seen only one tree kill orks n move n talk n walk and thats ENTS IN LOTR!!!

 

[elopez]

Where in the bible does it say that God gave man free will? By a choice? Was it a choice that man made? Or was it a choice that God willed? Wouldn't man's choice to sin be another stroke of the brush to creation?

Well in Genesis 2:16 it says this: "And the LORD God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden.'" If that isn't God granting some type of freedom to man then what is it? There really is no universal definition of free will that everyone accepts. Some take to the libertarian view of free will, others to compatible view, and even then some Christians don't accept free will at all. That said free will needs to be defined before it can be spoke of.

In the Garden when God granted Adam freedom, he was free to the extent that he could choose to eat from any other tree in the Garden but the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Freedom in that sense means the ability to act and choose how we want to without any external or internal factors forcing or preventing us. That entails a second type of freedom which is in relation with moral accountability -- the ability to mentally comprehend the reasons and motives for our actions and choices, and that they have consequences either beneficial or harmful.

So when asked was it a choice man made I don't see any other being that did indeed choose to eat from the tree aside from Eve who tempted him in the first place. Sure the serpent tempted them but ultimately it was man who decided to eat the fruit, as there was no external or internal factor forcing or preventing them to eat it and it was what they wanted, and as they understood that by eating it death would ensue, it was their choice and they are responsible.

That makes the origin of sin unrelated to God's will.

Without it there would be no beautiful redemptive process. Redemption is the will of God and if redemption is the will of God then so was man's fall in order to make way for redemption. What will do we really have?

Without it there would be no need for redemption as all would be born into grace instead of sin. Now redemption was the will of God because He knew man was going to choose to sin and continue to sin, which is not God's will.

If I truly had free will I wouldn't be so dependent upon the limiting creation around me. If I had free will I could decide to not be thirsty or hungry anymore but I can't because I lack such will due to the limitations placed upon me by my creator.

So in order to have free will according to you it seems as if we must be as self - sufficient as God, though I would say just because we are not doesn't mean we have no free will at all. Hunger and thirst are things that we physically need to survive, and without them we would eventually die. That we cannot not be thirsty or hungry doesn't mean we don't have free will. Again, free will means that we have the capability of even doing something first, and as we do not normally have the capability to not be hungry, free will doesn't apply to such. It is a physically necessity that we eat and drink fluids and not something we are capable of ceasing to do. What I mean is that we cannot not experience hunger, but perhaps we are able to resist that hunger.

Limitations are a factor but if you think about it everything becomes a factor and therefore limits my free will. I'm here to say that everything is willed by the creator. Every little facet of life comes froms him even our own wills, thoughts and actions. Good and evil are all rooted in a holy God, even sin is. All of creation is a manifestation of his will. We have no choice. All we have is his influence to shape us.

Our inability to perform physical impossibilities brings up an interesting point though. Limitations are a factor but it may depend on the limitation in question, as again just because we cannot choose to not be hungry doesn't mean wouldn't have free will. We choose what to eat, what to drink, etc.

Does the potter have enough power over the clay to shape one vessel unto honour and one unto dishonour?

I don't see why not, but I don't see the need to 'shape' one for dishonor when we are capable of that on our very own without any aid.

 

[AMDG]

Nature most certainly DON't HAVE FREE WILL! I've seen only one tree kill orks n move n talk n walk and thats ENTS IN LOTR!!!

Never said that they talk and all. Said that all of nature has free will. And I said thats why there is evil in this world.

See if you can find the tape of Dr. Scott Hahn's "Where is God in an UnGodly World". It's of his discourse to the theological class he teaches at Steubenville. I believe it is found in "The Problem of Evil" tape.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Never said that they talk and all. Said that all of nature has free will. And I said thats why there is evil in this world.

See if you can find the tape of Dr. Scott Hahn's "Where is God in an UnGodly World". It's of his discourse to the theological class he teaches at Steubenville. I believe it is found in "The Problem of Evil" tape.

Nature has free will.
I think the weeds in my garden have a mind of their own.
God doesnt micro manage.

 

[Lily_Among_Thorns]

Lemme give you an example you may understand.

I know a woman who lives with her bf [puke] and he hides the phone from her, he refuses to let her have a car, he makes her pay for him when they go out... and basically stalks her if she isnt with him.

Right there - do you think she is happy and loves him?

Behind his back she loathes him. She wants to leave him but genuinely fears he will find her and stalk her and he has money he has used for ill purposes before, like when he had some guys car blown up [he got a million dollar settlement years back] because the guy stopped by to see her.
Not a bf or anything, just to say hi,.
Because she isnt allowed to talk to guys.


THAT is lack of freedom, lack of free will.

God wants our love, if we dont have free will we will not love Him.

Everything that exists God created. This includes our free will. If God created our free will then he also created our thoughts and actions since anything that exists exists because of him. There is not one thing that exists that he did not create and there is nothing apart from him that exists that he did not create. Saying that we have free will apart from him is like saying that there is something that exists that he did not create. Saying that our thoughts and actions exist apart from him is like saying that there is something that exists that he did not create.

Everything came from him and that includes our free will, thoughts and actions. We are his creation and in our thoughts and actions we have been created. It is not that he allows our free will but that he created it entirely. The good and the bad included. He made the good and the bad, the holy and the unholy. He created everything. Everything came from him.

Does not the potter have enough power over the clay to make one vessel unto honour and one unto dishonour?

If God wants your love he must enable you, not by your own will are you able to do anything but by God's will. God's will is throughout his entire creation right up to our free will. By God's will I think and by God's will do I act. The entire creation is his will and nothing found within is exists without God willing it. From every blade of grass to every grain of sand exists because God willed it.

It is the Spirit that moves all things then why could it not be the Spirit that moves my thoughts and actions? All things are inclusive to good and bad, pure and impure. Otherwise it wouldn't be all things.

 

[Lily_Among_Thorns]

Lives with her B/F (puke)?

anyway... free will pertains to the moral... is not an ability to do what ever you want. Its not license.

Its just God is not going to interfere with anything we choose morally speaking.

Its our life and we will live it how ever we want.

True freedom of our will is the freedom to choose rightly.

Its being free from our desires and passions where we can choose to do right.

The deal with Jesus is, he came to give us His grace so we can call upon that and find the strength and ability to say no.

when we can say no to our depravity then we are truly free.

But God already has a plan for each and everyone of our lives from birth to death. He made us to choose right and wrong throughout our lives. He made us as sinners. He could of made us not be sinners if that were his will. However, it was not and we have sinned throughout our lives but not by our own free will but by God's plan for us in creating each and everyone of us. We were bound to sin because that was the choice that God made for us in creating us. Our sins fit into his plan of redemption through his Son, however, not everyone follows this plan of redemption and go through life sinning and not knowing God's plan of redemption. Should these people be held accountable for their sins, the very sins in which their creator created them to commit or should there be a fountain of mercy that extends to all men regardless of what they believe?

I would hope that God's mercy is more pure than anyone else's; and that he would permit the nonbeliever to drink from this font.

 

[Lily_Among_Thorns]

You are not limited. Just seek and He will assist you.
O, and if you can, do so without doubts.

See my sig.

I live by this rule - and havent been left unaided or abandoned. Somehow He helps the moment i seem to ask... maybe its because my tiny fraction of faith and my prayers keep the door way open to Him to enter at all times.

When doubts come a knockin [like you are suffering just for this moment] pray. Run to His aid.

What father would hand his son a scorpion if he asked for a fish..?
If we who are not good can do these things, how much more will the Father in Heaven do for those who ask? [with their hearts]

I understand the dark periods, really i do and i think you entered into one, but seek the Holy Spirit's graces and let Him heal you and trust. Yes trust above all things.

Praying with you. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

No dark period here.

I am limited in my flesh. I have to eat or I die. I have to drink or I die. I get sick. I grow old. My mind fades. My heart gives out. The air leaves my lungs. So many things could go wrong. The flesh is a wretched and miserable condition and damned are those people that depend upon it.

It's like being wrapped up in fire. But a man must walk through fire to be saved.

 

[Lily_Among_Thorns]

Oh, don't forget, that when God gave us free will, He gave free will to *everyone and everything*. So your neighbor has free-will to help you or not, to give you a drink of water or not, and all of nature itself is free to do it's thing--the wind blows where it may, hurricanes go where they want, so do tornados, etc.

The answer to evil in the world *is* free-will--ours and natures.

And I guess the creator has no control over his creation. You just see the appearance of free will. It is the Spirit that moves all things.

 

[AMDG]

And I guess the creator has no control over his creation. You just see the appearance of free will. It is the Spirit that moves all things.

I'm confused. Are you saying that the Creator and the Spirit are not one?

 

[fhansen]

Where in the bible does it say that God gave man free will? By a choice? Was it a choice that man made? Or was it a choice that God willed? Wouldn't man's choice to sin be another stroke of the brush to creation?
Without it there would be no beautiful redemptive process. Redemption is the will of God and if redemption is the will of God then so was man's fall in order to make way for redemption. What will do we really have?

If I truly had free will I wouldn't be so dependent upon the limiting creation around me. If I had free will I could decide to not be thirsty or hungry anymore but I can't because I lack such will due to the limitiations placed upon me by my creator. Limitations are a factor but if you think about it everything becomes a factor and therefore limits my free will. I'm here to say that everything is willed by the creator. Every little facet of life comes froms him even our own wills, thoughts and actions. Good and evil are all rooted in a holy God, even sin is. All of creation is a manifestation of his will. We have no choice. All we have is his influence to shape us.

Does the potter have enough power over the clay to shape one vessel unto honour and one unto dishonour?

How about this? We have free will and God knew, before He created, that we would abuse it, but deemed it worthwhile to create anyway. In this scenario, God is not the author of evil but He determined to bring a greater good, such as the Redemption and all that means for humankind, out of the evil He knew would occur.

We're actually radically free to behave as we will, limited only by whatever physical limitations are an inherent part of our creatureliness, so that our freedom consists in the freedom to create our own morality, or bow to God and the laws He's created for us.