Free will

[Rhamiel]

Now, there are some other things, but those are the two PRIMARY things where they are "on the same page." Ecclesiology and Epistemology. (BTW, the two primary things that I disagree with the RCC about and the two primary reasons why I "left" the RCC). But because the RCC and LDS agree on these TWO things (the two things that are the main reasons I'm not Catholic) doesn't REMOTELY suggest that they are "similar." There are 2,865 points in the latest edition of the RCC Catechism. I probably agree with 95% of them, the typical Mormon would probably agree with 5% of it! Lutheranism is FAR, FAR, FAR more "similar" to Catholicism than is Mormonism. I've NEVER remotely, wildly, suggested otherwise.

brother, I am sorry for accusing you, I missunderstood you and I am sorry

You MUST know that I have argued often and strongly that I do NOT regard the RCC to be the "Babylon" of the Book of Revelation. If you regard the LDS as such, that's YOUR view, do not rebuke me for a position that is yours.

I do not think the LDS is Babylon, I do not think it is a Christian denomination either, but that is not really the topic, I do not hate Mormons, to tell the truth i hardly ever even think about the LDS

Yes. But I regard the RCC to be semi-Arminianistic. And if you read these threads, it's often the Catholics who are defending and stating the Arminianistic view MORE and often more PASSIONATELY than any Protestant. Such has been my experience - here and elsewhere. Just read these threads and note the position of the Catholics posting. It's pretty unavoidable.

I see where you are coming from, let me explain though, it is not that we love Arminianism, it is that we really really hate Calvinism

I am feeling burnt out, I can not debate anymore, I am lashing out at my brothers and sisters in Christ, I am taking everything personal, and I do not think I am doing a good job making my point
in another thread you mentioned that the Catholics were being granted a "dispensation" lol, well this is hurting me more then you know, before I was defending the Catholic Church, i could do that all day, now I am attacking the faith of my brothers and sisters in Christ and it is eating a hole in my heart

 

[JustAsIam77]

brother, I am sorry for accusing you, I missunderstood you and I am sorry


I do not think the LDS is Babylon, I do not think it is a Christian denomination either, but that is not really the topic, I do not hate Mormons, to tell the truth i hardly ever even think about the LDS
I see where you are coming from, let me explain though, it is not that we love Arminianism, it is that we really really hate Calvinism

I am feeling burnt out, I can not debate anymore, I am lashing out at my brothers and sisters in Christ, I am taking everything personal, and I do not think I am doing a good job making my point
in another thread you mentioned that the Catholics were being granted a "dispensation" lol, well this is hurting me more then you know, before I was defending the Catholic Church, i could do that all day, now I am attacking the faith of my brothers and sisters in Christ and it is eating a hole in my heart

I'm very sorry to hear this my friend. You know the old saying, "never discuss religion or politics". Well, we do it all the time here. It all comes out in the wash.

There has to be no personal attacks, no judging of others and a great deal of humility in order to pull it off.

For my part, I'm going to try to be more careful about the subjects I bring up here. I suppose our individual views on theology should be reserved for more like minded bretheren, (in my case reformed), so as not to create divisiveness.

I mistakenly thought we could have a lively exchange of ideas about our view of scripture, get different points of view and compare notes. But I see it has bothered at least one other member and now apparently yourself.

May the Lord bless you richly.

 

[MrJim]

I mistakenly thought we could have a lively exchange of ideas about our view of scripture, get different points of view and compare notes. But I see it has bothered at least one other member and now apparently yourself.

May the Lord bless you richly.

Is the topic a central core teaching? Is it a "make or break"? Or is it just drapery and carpeting? Does it matter? I'm just trying to draw out the logical conclusion of the calvinists position. If an obedient Christian stands before God justified, whether arminian or calvinist, then what's the point of the discussions when all they amount to is division?

 

[ReformedChapin]

Is the topic a central core teaching? Is it a "make or break"? Or is it just drapery and carpeting? Does it matter? I'm just trying to draw out the logical conclusion of the calvinists position. If an obedient Christian stands before God justified, whether arminian or calvinist, then what's the point of the discussions when all they amount to is division?

I wont lie to you. To a good number of reformed people it's a make or brake doctrine. If you are an arminian you are going to hell. To others such a myself it's extremely important and you won't understand the bible unless you adhere to it but you are still saved.

Many reformed people came out arminian and popular christian churches. So we know that we are still saved we just didn't recognize that it was God that saved us completely.

 

[JustAsIam77]

I wont lie to you. To a good number of reformed people it's a make or brake doctrine. If you are an arminian you are going to hell. To others such a myself it's extremely important and you won't understand the bible unless you adhere to it but you are still saved.

Many reformed people came out arminian and popular christian churches. So we know that we are still saved we just didn't recognize that it was God that saved us completely.

I agree with this position.

 

[MrJim]

The position I related is by quoting Scripture. The ones Calvinists like to quote and the ones Arminians like to quote. I agree with them all. That is the Lutheran position.

No, I'm not adding MY personal, fallible, limited, human LOGIC to any of them. You are. Quite well. So does the Arminian. Quite well. BOTH of these position are humanly LOGICAL (about equally so, it seems to me) but as each so well reveals, BOTH sides argue that BOTH sides are problematic vis-a-vis Scripture.

My position is to embrace what ALL the Scriptures say. And stop there. I find that neither illogical or unscriptural. I find that humble and wise. IMHO, you seem to want to embrace some Scriptures and RUN with them - adding a lot of your own fallible, limited, human logic and subjecting Scripture to such. Thus, our difference.


Sorry for the interruption in the "war" between these two "logical" arguments. It seems to ME, this debate does MUCH to reveal the wisdom of the Lutheran position.



Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah



.

I agree with this position.

Curious~do you guys butt heads with the Calvinist-onlyists in SF?

 

[ReformedChapin]

Curious~do you guys butt heads with the Calvinist-onlyists in SF?

Most of them are gone from CF. I encounter them in other forums.

 

[JustAsIam77]

My father was the most devout man of God I've ever known. Deacon then elder in the presbyterian church. He was a hard core, strict arminian.

I know he's with the Lord now.

 

[ReformedChapin]

My father was the most devout man of God I've ever known. Deacon then elder in the presbyterian church. He was a hard core, strict arminian.

I know he's with the Lord now.

I'm surprised they let him be either. Presbies are rigorous with their membership.

 

[MrJim]

So does this make you guys like, moderate calvinists?

 

[JustAsIam77]

I'm surprised they let him be either. Presbies are rigorous with their membership.

I still to this day question how Pop was so legalistic.

But a great man all the same.

 

[JustAsIam77]

So does this make you guys like, moderate calvinists?

You have the wrong impression of us Calvinists.

OK, maybe I'm a "moderate reformationist". The "Calvinist" label frightens people.

In Christ.

 

[ReformedChapin]

You have the wrong impression of us Calvinists.

OK, maybe I'm a "moderate reformationist". The "Calvinist" label frightens people.

In Christ.

Welll if you don't hold to a confession a lot of reformed people wouldn't call you reformed.

I pretty much adhere to the 3 forms of unity but I am still trying to work through some issues. They would call people like Piper, MacCarthur and probably Driscoll not reformed.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Welll if you don't hold to a confession a lot of reformed people wouldn't call you reformed.

I pretty much adhere to the 3 forms of unity but I am still trying to work through some issues. They would call people like Piper, MacCarthur and probably Driscoll not reformed.

I adhere to the Westminister confession of faith. Absolutely.

Please don't judge me not reformed because I'm trying to get along in this forum.

I believe Piper is reformed. I enjoy his sermons very much.

 

[ReformedChapin]

I adhere to the Westminister confession of faith. Absolutely.

Please don't judge me not reformed because I'm trying to get along in this forum.

I believe Piper is reformed. I enjoy his sermons very much.

I was making a general statement about the more puritanical reformed people think. Not me. Sorry about the confussion.

I haven't yet decided as to what should be called reformed or not.

 

[desmalia]

They would call people like Piper, MacCarthur and probably Driscoll not reformed.

Oh no, then I'm in big trouble!!!

 

[Rhamiel]

Most of them are gone from CF. I encounter them in other forums.

oh come with me, i could show you a few lol

 

[MrJim]

I didn't know we had so many cafeteria calvinists here

 

[Rhamiel]

i tend to shy away from the term "reformed" unless I am talking about a specific group, like Durch Reformed for example, because every group who has its roots in the Reformation could call itself "reformed"

 

[ReformedChapin]

oh come with me, i could show you a few lol

kay...show me