Free will

[JustAsIam77]

I didn't know we had so many cafeteria calvinists here

More than you know.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

Whats arminian? Sorry to be ignorant.

Free Will = Synergism (Grace comes to us from God with human co-operation, working together. Believes in Universal salvation meaning that salvation is for everyone and Jesus died for everyone. Everybody has the ability to repent because of free will)

Calvinism = Monergism (Grace comes to us without human co-operation, pre-election. Denies universal salvation and that Jesus died only for a pre-select few. It is impossible for the non-selected to repent. )

Pelagianism = Only human efforts and merits grant us heaven

Hyper-Calvinism = God not only pre-elects humans for heaven, but actively pre-elects people to hell by his will. Men have no independant will. Duty-faith and duty-repentence are denied. God is creater and source of evil and all sin

 

[Rhamiel]

Free Will = Synergism (Grace comes to us from God with human co-operation, working together. Believes in Universal salvation meaning that salvation is for everyone and Jesus died for everyone. Everybody has the ability to repent because of free will)

Calvinism = Monergism (Grace comes to us without human co-operation, pre-election. Denies universal salvation and that Jesus died only for a pre-select few. It is impossible for the non-selected to repent. )

Pelagianism = Only human efforts and merits grant us heaven

Hyper-Calvinism = God not only pre-elects humans for heaven, but actively pre-elects people to hell by his will. Men have no independant will. Duty-faith and duty-repentence are denied. God is creater and source of evil and all sin

I would think that the Arminians would say that even with free will, no one can choose God on there own because of our sinful nature, we are a "slave to sin" and that "no one is good", it is only through His grace that people feel sorry for there sins, repentance is a gift of the Holy Spirit
Christians know we need grace, the debate is over if His grace is irresistible or not.
also, the way you described "hyper-Calvinism" is how I have always heard just basic Calvinism presented to me

 

[MrJim]

I would think that the Arminians would say that even with free will, no one can choose God on there own because of our sinful nature, we are a "slave to sin" and that "no one is good", it is only through His grace that people feel sorry for there sins, repentance is a gift of the Holy Spirit
Christians know we need grace, the debate is over if His grace is irresistible or not.
also, the way you described "hyper-Calvinism" is how I have always heard just basic Calvinism presented to me

If you examine both closely they say the same thing apart from the "hyper" last sentence which I don't think even the hypers believe.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

I would think that the Arminians would say that even with free will, no one can choose God on there own because of our sinful nature, we are a "slave to sin" and that "no one is good", it is only through His grace that people feel sorry for there sins, repentance is a gift of the Holy Spirit
Christians know we need grace, the debate is over if His grace is irresistible or not.
also, the way you described "hyper-Calvinism" is how I have always heard just basic Calvinism presented to me

the difference between calvinism and hyper-Calvinism is that in hyper Calvinism duty-faith and duty-repentance is denied. Also in hyper Calvinism God actively pre-elects people for hell, whereas in Calvinism God only pre-elects people for heaven and "ignores" the damned.

Orthodox Christians believe in Synergism. Reformers believe in Monergism.


In my opinion, when Free-Will is taken away it poses enormous theological problems and contradicts justice

 

[drstevej]

the difference between calvinism and hyper-Calvinism is that in hyper Calvinism duty-faith and duty-repentance is denied. Also in hyper Calvinism God actively pre-elects people for hell, whereas in Calvinism God only pre-elects people for heaven and "ignores" the damned.

Orthodox Christians believe in Synergism. Reformers believe in Monergism.


In my opinion, when Free-Will is taken away it poses enormous theological problems and contradicts justice

Actually the term "hyper Calvinism" is not a settled term as to boundaries. Fir example your inclusion of double predestinarians in the hyper Calvinist group I think is not valid.

The international Reformed Synod of Dort developed a creed that embraces both single and double predestinarians. So, the Reformed tradition has not made your distinction.

 

[drstevej]

In my opinion, when Free-Will is taken away it poses enormous theological problems and contradicts justice

In my opinion, when Free-Will is advocated it poses enormous theological problems and contradicts omniscience and omnipotence and sovereignty.

 

[DonKeesee]

I am imagining something . . .

"Lord, how about Arminianism verses Calvinism, free will verses the lack of it?"

Jesus: "Know me better and you will know the things you need to know."

 

[MrJim]

I am imagining something . . .

"Lord, how about Arminianism verses Calvinism, free will verses the lack of it?"

Jesus: "Know me better and you will know the things you need to know."

Much wisdom in this sentence!

 

[AnneSally]

Arminian POV basically says that God has provided the way to salvation by the blood of Christ and if we believe and walk in His way then we too can be saved.

Calvinism POV basically says that long before the world was ever formed God had a raffle and randomly selected names of those that will be saved and if you weren't selected then there is absolutely no hope for you.

Tons of scripture to support both sides of the argument...very tired discussion around here, but occasionally some comes around that hasn't heard it before

LOL! Yeah, that's how I perceive those schools of thought too....

 

[AnneSally]

not even close -
It is by foreknowledge God has - not some random lottery pick with His eyes closed

but I do agree that both show support & that's why top scholars & theologians continue to disagree & argue the 2 positions.

That's an excellent distinction because that is scriptural. "Foreknowledge" not raffle, but I think sometimes Calvinists present it that way to the uninitiated in their theology, that's how they always came across to me anyway, that it's a raffle....

And I find it weird that Christians refer to themselves as "Calvinist" because that is taking the name of a man. It makes me think of when Paul was admonishing some of them in 1 Cor 3:4 --

For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?

I wonder if Paul was here today whether he'd take us to task when we use those same indicators when referring to Calvin and Arminian and the factions it causes amongst us...I have a feeling that he would rebuke us...yikes...

 

[AnneSally]

Ok so he wanted her to want the fruit and he wanted the fall of mankind because he was bored or something? Why would he want destruction? I dont get it.

I don't get it either....that's why I normally prefer to stay out of these types of theological discussions because no-one seems to have a sensible answer. I have to rely on faith instead and just trust that God knows what He is doing and one day I may find out, or not, whatever the case may be....

 

[AnneSally]

Until I came to CF, I was completely unfamiliar with the teachings of Calvin, and had never heard of Armenian (spelling?).

me too, I had never heard of either of them until I came to CF, but I was already a Christian for years before I came here and heard about them....

 

[AnneSally]

I am imagining something . . .

"Lord, how about Arminianism verses Calvinism, free will verses the lack of it?"

Jesus: "Know me better and you will know the things you need to know."

Wow.

 

[NorrinRadd]

wow
one of the only debates I have been to where logic was thought of as a bad thing
so are we all in aggrement that the Lutheran position has no logic to it at all?

If I understand the Lutheran position, it's basically "Don't go beyond what is written" (1 Cor. 4:6). If so, I like it.

Logic is fine, but it is not the inviolable measure of truth. It is frankly impossible to conform some Scriptural teachings to the bounds of logic without bending the Scriptures and/or inventing concepts that Scripture itself does not directly teach.

 

[desmalia]

LOL! Yeah, that's how I perceive those schools of thought too....

Sally! Bah, dragged up an old heated thread, did ya?!

That's an excellent distinction because that is scriptural. "Foreknowledge" not raffle, but I think sometimes Calvinists present it that way to the uninitiated in their theology, that's how they always came across to me anyway, that it's a raffle....

And I find it weird that Christians refer to themselves as "Calvinist" because that is taking the name of a man. It makes me think of when Paul was admonishing some of them in 1 Cor 3:4 --

For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?

I wonder if Paul was here today whether he'd take us to task when we use those same indicators when referring to Calvin and Arminian and the factions it causes amongst us...I have a feeling that he would rebuke us...yikes...

Thing is, Calvinists don't believe in the raffle idea. We believe in God's sovereignty and God's plan. He's not random by His very nature. That is how we're generally presented though, unfortunately. But Foreknowledge does not answer this issue either because if it was just about God knowing who would choose Him then we're back to salvation based on the work of the individual. No, God chose whomever He has chosen for His purpose and His will, not because any of us deserve it and not because any of us have, of our own volition, chosen Him. He's the One who first opened our eyes so that we could believe. Before that we were dead in our sins, totally unable to choose Him.

I don't get it either....that's why I normally prefer to stay out of these types of theological discussions because no-one seems to have a sensible answer. I have to rely on faith instead and just trust that God knows what He is doing and one day I may find out, or not, whatever the case may be....

It's important to think big picture about this. All of creation is for God's glory. We were created so that Christ would be the atonement for our sins, displaying God's nature and glory and power. It's easy to get bogged down and think in terms of our little individual lives (especially in our culture where we've learned to expect and even demand comfort, ease, and happiness). But when we look at live from the perspective of eternity (God's perspective) it starts to make a lot more sense.

 

[desmalia]

me too, I had never heard of either of them until I came to CF, but I was already a Christian for years before I came here and heard about them....

I probably said it earlier in this thread already, but I was raised to believe Calvinist was a bad, evil thing, a cult, even. And I'd never heard of Arminan before coming to CF. I believed in the reformed doctrines of grace looooong before I ever new that made me one of those evil Calvinists! lol.

 

[AnneSally]

Sally! Bah, dragged up an old heated thread, did ya?!

hahahaha! Just call me the "resurrector of old heated thread"
*Cackle*

Thing is, Calvinists don't believe in the raffle idea. We believe in God's sovereignty and God's plan. He's not random by His very nature. That is how we're generally presented though, unfortunately. But Foreknowledge does not answer this issue either because if it was just about God knowing who would choose Him then we're back to salvation based on the work of the individual. No, God chose whomever He has chosen for His purpose and His will, not because any of us deserve it and not because any of us have, of our own volition, chosen Him. He's the One who first opened our eyes so that we could believe. Before that we were dead in our sins, totally unable to choose Him.

Ok, actually, that does make sense to me, thanks for explaining.

It's important to think big picture about this. All of creation is for God's glory. We were created so that Christ would be the atonement for our sins, displaying God's nature and glory and power. It's easy to get bogged down and think in terms of our little individual lives (especially in our culture where we've learned to expect and even demand comfort, ease, and happiness). But when we look at live from the perspective of eternity (God's perspective) it starts to make a lot more sense.

Ok, but I'm still scratching my head wondering why He needs us for His glory. He already is glorious, He was there before us, He doesn't need us for anything. Why create us for His eternal glory when He doesn't need us for that and is already eternal? I don't get it....

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

What Josiah says makes some sense in that attempting to apply "logic" to God with our limited understanding is like watching a child attempt to explain nuclear fission. We absolutely think we have a handle on things when in fact we are so filled with our own pride of our knowledge that we refuse to humble ourselves to the point of knowing we don't understand everything. We don't want to accept "Mystery"-that doesn't compute, and so we have to have a 'cut & dried' explanation for every minutae of doctrine...and in the process we miss the entire point..

Thank you.

It's a humility thing.




.

 

[AnneSally]

I probably said it earlier in this thread already, but I was raised to believe Calvinist was a bad, evil thing, a cult, even. And I'd never heard of Arminan before coming to CF. I believed in the reformed doctrines of grace looooong before I ever new that made me one of those evil Calvinists! lol.

I was shocked that I hadn't even heard of Arminian or Calvin as a Christian for a decade. Oops. :o

I thought an Arminian was an Eastern European.