Free will

[AnneSally]

What Josiah says makes some sense in that attempting to apply "logic" to God with our limited understanding is like watching a child attempt to explain nuclear fission. We absolutely think we have a handle on things when in fact we are so filled with our own pride of our knowledge that we refuse to humble ourselves to the point of knowing we don't understand everything. We don't want to accept "Mystery"-that doesn't compute, and so we have to have a 'cut & dried' explanation for every minutae of doctrine...and in the process we miss the entire point..

Yeah exactly, good point Mr J, and the point we miss that is that we're no longer living by faith, but living by what we think we know...

Instead, consider Proverbs 3:5 --

Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.

 

[desmalia]

Ok, but I'm still scratching my head wondering why He needs us for His glory. He already is glorious, He was there before us, He doesn't need us for anything. Why create us for His eternal glory when He doesn't need us for that and is already eternal? I don't get it....

That is a big subject that all of us, Calvinist, Arminian, or whatever struggle to understand, and to a degree, the "mystery" statements made earlier apply.

But also, what we do know is that God is the Creator. He's not the Creator because He made us. It simply is His nature. And He is love. Love is action, it is sacrifice, it is kindness, etc. etc. I completely agree that He does not need us for anything. But we are an expression of His glorious nature. That expression is Him, Love, in action. Does the potter find the most joy in being a potter in name? No, it's in creating his works of art. Same with God. We are just the creation. And He can create whatever He chooses according to His perfect will. Who is to say this finite life and this finite timeline are all He has ever or will ever create?

I was shocked that I hadn't even heard of Arminian or Calvin as a Christian for a decade. Oops. :o

I thought an Arminian was an Eastern European.

Like an Armenian Arminian... or an Armenian Calvinist?

 

[JimfromOhio]

In the Old Testament, God calls Israel "mine elect" and chose Israel. In the New Testament, God calls Church "mine elect" and chose those whoever responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Many groups developed from the teachings of persons other than Martin Luther in Lutheranism, most notably, two men: Ulrich Zwingli and John Calvin in Reformed. Later, Arminianism came in which Methodists and similar denominations believe. Arminiansim do not believe that "man after the Fall has no ability to cooperate with God's grace in conversion".

Is freewill slave to sin or can make objective decisions without the conviction of the Holy Spirit?

I truly believe that the Bible says that "our will" is a slave because we live in a sinful body. The question become when a Christian becomes a believer in Christ, Is he/she either a slave to sin, or a slave to righteousness (In Christ). God gives every sinner just that freewill (bound to slave) and each sinners can take their sins as far as they want. Slave to sin gives each sinner that freedom. Augustine said, “Free will without grace has the power to do nothing but sin. Free will without grace has the power to do nothing but sin.” A sinner can choose his category but he can’t choose anything other than sin. A sinner cannot choose God until God convicts him/her of their sins. A sinner is saved when the Holy Spirit convicting a sinner to repent and help a sinner change their ways (not of your own). If they didn't feel the conviction and didn't have the motivation to change from "within", then their salvation might be in question.

The Old and New Testaments affirms that no man seeks after God, and that there are none who are righteous (Ps. 14:1-3; 53:1-4; Rom. 3:10-18). In John 6:44, Jesus said "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" in the same chapter 6 of John, in verse 65, Jesus said "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." All a sinner has to do is respond to the conviction and repent. Acts 2:37-38 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In my position, I have understood that God is a sovereign God and I have to understand that somehow, mysteriously, within the framework of predestination and within the framework of His sovereignty and the framework of election, which I believe in, there is a place for human freewill which is whether they respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. In Romans 9:19 says "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" The Holy Spirit convicts a person to repent his/her pride by "For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

 

[JimfromOhio]

One of my favorite theologians is Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones who was brought up in Welsh Calvinistic Methodism. From John Piper: "If you have never heard of the Calvinistic Methodists the very term may seem contradictory. Dr. Jones pastored Westminster Chapel in London with Dr. Campbell Morgan who was a famous Arminian theologian. Morgan and Lloyd-Jones' association was a fitting example of how Christians can work together even when they differ on secondary issues (salvation)."

 

[AnneSally]

That is a big subject that all of us, Calvinist, Arminian, or whatever struggle to understand, and to a degree, the "mystery" statements made earlier apply.

But also, what we do know is that God is the Creator. He's not the Creator because He made us. It simply is His nature. And He is love. Love is action, it is sacrifice, it is kindness, etc. etc. I completely agree that He does not need us for anything. But we are an expression of His glorious nature. That expression is Him, Love, in action. Does the potter find the most joy in being a potter in name? No, it's in creating his works of art. Same with God. We are just the creation. And He can create whatever He chooses according to His perfect will. Who is to say this finite life and this finite timeline are all He has ever or will ever create?

I agree with you, I do regard the creation as an expression of His love, and He didn't create us to be robots living in a dolls house. He created us in His image and gave us a will of our own with a conscience. He gave us commands to live by but He didn't force us to live by them as is evident when Adam and Eve took the fruit and ate it. In that sense, there was some semblance of freedom, but of course it was a freedom set within His boundaries and precepts because He is the Creator, rightfully owns His own creation, and we don't exist outside of His will.

Then we have the truth of what happened in Eden presented before us in the scriptures, and it's clear that Adam and Eve wanted to know more than what He had revealed to them at that time. They wanted to know what He knows so they could become like Him and have the knowledge of good and evil, and the only way they could get that was to disobey Him.

Where I think it all starts getting dicey with Calvinism is when it insists that it can fill in all the gaps of our understanding even to the point of insinuating that it was God's will that Adam and Eve disobey Him. It may not mean to deliberately imply that notion, but there is a danger that it does, and that by association implies that God wanted us to sin so He could save us.

Sorry, but I think that not only goes against God's own nature, but that it suggests that the only way He can find joy and glory is in contradicting Himself. By giving a command not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil, but secretly wanting A&E to disobey it, so He could glorify Himself by saving us. Hello? That's the part that no-one gets because it goes beyond the scriptures and is leaps and bounds in human logic and reasoning based on certain scriptures that don't even go that far.

I think that is why Josiah and MrJim are expressing caution in how far we all go with our theologies, because we don't know everything, we only know what He has revealed to us, and we must live from faith to faith and grow in the mind of Christ. That requires not always knowing everything, Abraham didn't know that when he stepped out in faith and went to sacrifice his son Isaac he was going to be stopped by God from doing it. And we have been called to the same faith, that means stepping out boldly in trusting God especially when we don't know all the answers, and that takes the courage and obedience of Abraham, not leaning on theologies as automatically having all the answers or processes by which we think we can second guess God's next step before we take our step.

 

[AnneSally]

Like an Armenian Arminian... or an Armenian Calvinist?

LOL, I dunno, I have no idea!
It's all beyond me at this stage, waaaaah --->

haha

 

[Cris413]

I consider...we are predestined, called by the Lord to come to Him...and we have the free will to reject Him...and we have the free will to make a mess of things if we so choose...like I have done many times and suffered the consequences thereof.

Kinda like a spoiled rotten kid....I can do it on my own...and the Father says...go ahead and try...exercise your free will...I'll be waiting right here when you fall flat on your face...and you will fall flat on your face...and I'll pick you back up...heal your hurts and set you straight again....'cause your my child and I love you....

...I have to say...life is a whole lot more peaceful and joyful...when we do it His way...Father knows best!

I also have to add...I believe lives...when submitted to Christ...are lives led according to His perfect will and purpose...God has a plan...and we being in submission...work out our purpose accordingly. So I guess...submission goes hand and hand with predestination...and rebellion perhaps goes hand in hand with exercising our free will apart from God's plan...However, God always has plan B...when we mess up....and for some of us...Plan C and Plan D and...

Rom 8:27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

 

[NorrinRadd]

...

Thing is, Calvinists don't believe in the raffle idea. We believe in God's sovereignty and God's plan. He's not random by His very nature. That is how we're generally presented though, unfortunately. But Foreknowledge does not answer this issue either because if it was just about God knowing who would choose Him then we're back to salvation based on the work of the individual. No, God chose whomever He has chosen for His purpose and His will, not because any of us deserve it and not because any of us have, of our own volition, chosen Him. He's the One who first opened our eyes so that we could believe. Before that we were dead in our sins, totally unable to choose Him.

I accept that the Calvinist does not consider this to be "random," but -- particularly when this "choosing" is combined with "Irresistable Grace" -- from my perspective, it is indistinguishable from "Eenie meenie miney moe."

It's important to think big picture about this. All of creation is for God's glory. We were created so that Christ would be the atonement for our sins, displaying God's nature and glory and power. It's easy to get bogged down and think in terms of our little individual lives (especially in our culture where we've learned to expect and even demand comfort, ease, and happiness). But when we look at live from the perspective of eternity (God's perspective) it starts to make a lot more sense.

Where does Scripture teach that the whole *purpose* of the creation of Man was that Christ would redeem us?

 

[NorrinRadd]

...

Many groups developed from the teachings of persons other than Martin Luther in Lutheranism, most notably, two men: Ulrich Zwingli and John Calvin in Reformed. Later, Arminianism came in which Methodists and similar denominations believe. Arminiansim do not believe that "man after the Fall has no ability to cooperate with God's grace in conversion".

I don't think that's correct. I believe traditionally Arminianism *does* hold to "Total Depravity," but also believes in "Prevenient Grace," which does not allow Man to "cooperate," but does allow him to "not resist."

 

[desmalia]

I agree with you, I do regard the creation as an expression of His love, and He didn't create us to be robots living in a dolls house. He created us in His image and gave us a will of our own with a conscience. He gave us commands to live by but He didn't force us to live by them as is evident when Adam and Eve took the fruit and ate it. In that sense, there was some semblance of freedom, but of course it was a freedom set within His boundaries and precepts because He is the Creator, rightfully owns His own creation, and we don't exist outside of His will.

Then we have the truth of what happened in Eden presented before us in the scriptures, and it's clear that Adam and Eve wanted to know more than what He had revealed to them at that time. They wanted to know what He knows so they could become like Him and have the knowledge of good and evil, and the only way they could get that was to disobey Him.

Where I think it all starts getting dicey with Calvinism is when it insists that it can fill in all the gaps of our understanding even to the point of insinuating that it was God's will that Adam and Eve disobey Him. It may not mean to deliberately imply that notion, but there is a danger that it does, and that by association implies that God wanted us to sin so He could save us.

Sorry, but I think that not only goes against God's own nature, but that it suggests that the only way He can find joy and glory is in contradicting Himself. By giving a command not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil, but secretly wanting A&E to disobey it, so He could glorify Himself by saving us. Hello? That's the part that no-one gets because it goes beyond the scriptures and is leaps and bounds in human logic and reasoning based on certain scriptures that don't even go that far.

I think that is why Josiah and MrJim are expressing caution in how far we all go with our theologies, because we don't know everything, we only know what He has revealed to us, and we must live from faith to faith and grow in the mind of Christ. That requires not always knowing everything, Abraham didn't know that when he stepped out in faith and went to sacrifice his son Isaac he was going to be stopped by God from doing it. And we have been called to the same faith, that means stepping out boldly in trusting God especially when we don't know all the answers, and that takes the courage and obedience of Abraham, not leaning on theologies as automatically having all the answers or processes by which we think we can second guess God's next step before we take our step.

I understand your concerns, Sally. God is not the author of evil, nor does He force man to sin. But keep in mind that we do believe man has a will, just that it not as "free" as Arminian doctrine teaches.

 

[desmalia]

Where does Scripture teach that the whole *purpose* of the creation of Man was that Christ would redeem us?

You know, I was JUST reading it the other day, but I can't for the life of me remember where the passage is. I'll have to get back to you when I've got a bit of time. Feel free to remind me if I forget (again! lol). I've got company staying with me for a couple of days, so wont have time until later in the week.

 

[AnneSally]

I understand your concerns, Sally. God is not the author of evil, nor does He force man to sin. But keep in mind that we do believe man has a will, just that it not as "free" as Arminian doctrine teaches.

Ok Des, thanks. So the Calvinist doctrinal turning point seems to centre on mans will and whether it is "free." Is that correct?

I understand that since the fall we have become enslaved to sin, and we now have the knowledge of good and evil, and can't come to God unless He draws us, but back in the garden pre-fall they weren't in slavery to sin. Adam and Eve had a will and a conscience and they made a definite choice to sin/disobey and were free to do so, so what does that mean from a Calvinist POV?

 

[Rhamiel]

Ok Des, thanks. So the Calvinist doctrinal turning point seems to centre on mans will and whether it is "free." Is that correct?

I understand that since the fall we have become slaves to sin, and we now have the knowledge of good and evil, and can't come to God unless He draws us, but back in the garden pre-fall they weren't in slavery to sin. Adam and Eve had a will and a conscience and they made a definite choice to sin/disobey and were free to do so, so what does that mean from a Calvinist POV?

I can not speak for the Arminians, but orthodox Christianity does not teach that people have a free will when it comes to loveing God, to even want to do good, to be sorry for our sins, repentance, prayer, all of this comes from His grace, we can do nothing good on our own.
to me the differance lies in 3 points
is His grace offered to all mankind or a select few?
can human beings decide to not accept His grace?
once we accept that grace is it possible to loose it?
I would say only the Pelagians say that humans can choose good without the grace from God, and as far as I know, no modern Christian denomination is Pelagian