ReformedChapin
Chapin = Guatemalan
You are speculating. There was absolutely ZERO reference to freedom. All about obedience which was foreordained before the foundation of the world.
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Free will
- Thread starter JustAsIam77
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- Aug 6, 2005
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Arminian POV basically says that God has provided the way to salvation by the blood of Christ and if we believe and walk in His way then we too can be saved.
Calvinism POV basically says that long before the world was ever formed God had a raffle and randomly selected names of those that will be saved and if you weren't selected then there is absolutely no hope for you.
Tons of scripture to support both sides of the argument...very tired discussion around here, but occasionally some comes around that hasn't heard it before
Catholics and a FEW Protestants tend to embrace forms of Arminianism.
Calvinists tend to embrace determinism.
Most Protestants embrace neither to their logical extremes. IMHO, BOTH are correct and biblical TO A POINT (although each seems to quote different Scriptures) but then BOTH start in with the "therefores....." and there the Bible leaves off and their logic takes over. There's good Bible knowledge and good logic on both sides. IMHO, most Protestants embrace all the Scriptures (the ones the Arminians like to quote and the ones Calvinists like to quote) - just as God wrote them. And leave it at that. I admit, it may leave some of OUR questions unanswered, it may suggest that there are aspects of the divine not fully understood, certain dynamics just not revealed by God, but then we are called to be "stewards of the mysteries of God."
I have a thread on this somewhere. http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7346041
Blessings to all!
Pax
- Josiah
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Rhamiel
Member of the Round Table
sorry CaliforniaJosiah, Arminianism is a Protestant theology, the Catholic Church is not Armianian, that school of theology was founded by Dutch Reformed theologian Jacubus Arminius
Now Arminianism is closer to the the truth of the Catholic Church then Calvinism is, but it is still not Catholic, please do not present the Catholic Church as Arminian
Now Arminianism is closer to the the truth of the Catholic Church then Calvinism is, but it is still not Catholic, please do not present the Catholic Church as Arminian
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- Aug 6, 2005
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I agree. The RCC is currently well in the "free will" category as we've witnessed by the Catholics in these various threads agreeing completely with the Arminianists.
Now, technically, the RCC is not COMPLETELY Arminianistic. I agree. But as the Catholics here at CF have so very well documented, it leans very heavily in that direction.
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Rhamiel
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"free will" is kind of a misnomer, no one is a Pelagian, well except for Pelagians that is, but none of us are them
no one says that man is free to seek God on his own, well I can not speak for Arminians, but the Catholic Church does not teach such a thing, it is His Grace that allows us to love others, God is love so all love comes from Him, any "good" comes from God, we can not even feel sorrow for our sins without His grace
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Tzaousios
Αυγουστινιανικός Χριστιανός
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However, according to Calvinists, anyone who believes in a synergistic relationship, that man cooperates with God's grace, is automatically considered an Arminian and a Semi-Pelagian. This includes Roman Catholics and Eastern Ortrhodox Christians.
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- Aug 6, 2005
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As you pointed out...
I think most agree with you and would regard the RCC as "SEMI-Pelagian." But actually, as we've seen here at CF, most Catholics seem to be as strongly Arminianistic as any Protestant.
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ReformedChapin
Chapin = Guatemalan
EO's, RCC's and many protestants are Semi-Pelagians.
The Lutheran position is just plain incoherent.
The Lutheran position is just plain incoherent.
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Rhamiel
Member of the Round Table
JC
I do not think most people know what Pelagian and semi-Pelagain mean, so to say most people think that about the Catholic Church seems to be a mistake
no, you are looking at this as black and white, most Catholics on CF understand that Calvinism is a dangerous belief system, it is not orthodox, that does not mean we like Arminianism, it is just the far lesser of two evils
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desmalia
sounds like somebody's got a case of the mondays
- Sep 29, 2006
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But the Calvinist understanding of Soteriology comes rather directly from Augustine. So how could you call it so "dangerous" or "unorthodox"? Do you reject Augustine teaching?
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- Dec 26, 2006
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Since this thread was brought up from last fall, I thought it relevant to bring my original question to the fore.
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Rhamiel
Member of the Round Table
No, I do not reject Augustine
mankind is spiritualy dead, we can not even make one step towards Christ without being moved by His Grace
the debate comes in when we talk about if His Grace is irresistible or not
no one i talking about people saving themselves
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ReformedChapin
Chapin = Guatemalan
Not to mention the council of orange.
CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).
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