Free Will

[elman]

no.
An infinite number causes of which he has no control over played in to him writing that.

I think one of those causes was he decided to do it and he could have decided not to. That is free will.

 

[levi501]

I think one of those causes was he decided to do it and he could have decided not to. That is free will.

wrong.
Everything you do, think and feel has a cause. These causes are caused by billions and trillions of other causes. You think you have a choice in things when really every decision you've made is determined by all the events that lead up to it. The physio-chemical impulses in your brain, the firing of neurotransmitters that cause you to act have billions of other causes derived from your genetic makeup or from stimulus you've processed from your environment. Even the action of processing stimuli from your environment depends on billions of other causes. Consider any thought or action you've done or will do and recognize the reason you react the way you do is based on past experiences/stimulus based on the state of your mind at the time. Even the state of your mind at the time is contingent on passed stimulus and what your mother and father passed to you genetically.

So to put it simply... we are all formed from our genes and our environment. Therefor we don't exert freewill over our reactions/decisions because they depend completely on causes we ultimately have no control over.

What this has to do with theology, xianity especially is.. How can God, who started everything(the first cause), punish us for something we not only have no control over, but that's ultimately his fault seeing as he is the first cause?

Now as I said before... the absense of freewill doesn't necessary run contrary to faith. At least it doesn't run contrary to those that don't believe in a vengful God that consigns people to hell.

 

[Green Man]

So to put it simply... we are all formed from our genes and our environment. Therefor we don't exert freewill over our reactions/decisions because they depend completely on causes we ultimately have no control over.

So you're saying we're nothing but electro-chemical robots?

 

[levi501]

So you're saying we're nothing but electro-chemical robots?

define robot

 

[elman]

wrong.
Everything you do, think and feel has a cause. These causes are caused by billions and trillions of other causes. You think you have a choice in things when really every decision you've made is determined by all the events that lead up to it. The physio-chemical impulses in your brain, the firing of neurotransmitters that cause you to act have billions of other causes derived from your genetic makeup or from stimulus you've processed from your environment. Even the action of processing stimuli from your environment depends on billions of other causes. Consider any thought or action you've done or will do and recognize the reason you react the way you do is based on past experiences/stimulus based on the state of your mind at the time. Even the state of your mind at the time is contingent on passed stimulus and what your mother and father passed to you genetically.

So to put it simply... we are all formed from our genes and our environment. Therefor we don't exert freewill over our reactions/decisions because they depend completely on causes we ultimately have no control over.

What this has to do with theology, xianity especially is.. How can God, who started everything(the first cause), punish us for something we not only have no control over, but that's ultimately his fault seeing as he is the first cause?

Now as I said before... the absense of freewill doesn't necessary run contrary to faith. At least it doesn't run contrary to those that don't believe in a vengful God that consigns people to hell.

No I was not wrong. He had control over wheather he posted or not. He was not forced to do so by infinite predetermined causes. Free will is part of understanding love and sin. If there is no freewill there is no love, just programed response to stimuli. That would never be love or sin and sin does not exist if we are unable to make the wrong choice, because that is what sin is.

 

[elman]

define robot

Lack of free will. Inability to control decisions or make decisions like being loving toward someone or being unloving toward someone. That is a robot.

 

[levi501]

No I was not wrong. He had control over wheather he posted or not. He was not forced to do so by infinite predetermined causes. Free will is part of understanding love and sin. If there is no freewill there is no love, just programed response to stimuli. That would never be love or sin and sin does not exist if we are unable to make the wrong choice, because that is what sin is.

I guess this means you didn't understand a thing I said. It's really not that difficult. I'm surprised it's over your head. Let me know when you want to debate what I actually said instead of reasserting the same thing.

 

[levi501]

Lack of free will. Inability to control decisions or make decisions like being loving toward someone or being unloving toward someone. That is a robot.

by your deffinition of a robot then, I agree.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

Well, in that case, I don't think any laws should be created or disregarded based on religious teachings. That does not mean there should be no laws regarding prostitution, abortion, and (maybe) homosexuality. There are several non-religious arguments against these actions: arguments that show how these actions are a harm to society in general or the members of the particular society. I don't think Christians should push their religious laws onto others in a secular society.

I have yet to see anything. I think that if it is not protecting me, then the law is going against the free will of another, for not good reason.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

LOL. Obviously Christians HAVE to? Are you serious?


I don't believe in free will.


Gaston

Doesn't that create a problem with the whole God allows sin so that we can have free will thing?

 

[elman]

I guess this means you didn't understand a thing I said. It's really not that difficult. I'm surprised it's over your head. Let me know when you want to debate what I actually said instead of reasserting the same thing.

I think I understood what you said. I just think you are incorrect. You are saying I have no control over anything and neither does anyone else . I just don't think that is the way things are. Yes we are influenced by genes, and invironment and all sorts of things that we make no decisions on, but that is not the sum total of what results in our making one choice or another unless of course we are insane and unable to control ourselves, but that is not the case for most of us.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

how can one not believe in free will. It is the right to choose. WIthout freewill you would not be able to choose.
as to laws. Certain laws where made because of what a majority of people feel it is the basis of democracy. If the "moral" majority says that dy8ng of thirst and starvation is euphoric this does not make it so.
Christians have a moral belief and they stand behind it. There is nothing wrong with wanting legislation passed that promotes your beliefs.
If you dont like the laws write your congress....

So you may overstep God's law to create your own?

 

[elman]

by your deffinition of a robot then, I agree.

So what is your definition of a robot?

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

God doesn't allow sin so that people may have free will, but because of love.
Also, legislation doesn't take away free will. It only makes us aware of what is right and what is wrong.

Not true. Laws are there to protect people.

 

[Green Man]

just programed response to stimuli.

You always have a choice.

 

[levi501]

Yes we are influenced by genes, and invironment and all sorts of things that we make no decisions on, but that is not the sum total of what results in our making one choice or another unless of course we are insane and unable to control ourselves, but that is not the case for most of us.

Do you believe everything has a cause? (except God of course)
Consider this statement then work from there.

 

[levi501]

So what is your definition of a robot?

I have none. I'm not the one trying to compare the two.

 

[elman]

Do you believe everything has a cause? (except God of course)
Consider this statement then work from there.

Yes and I believe that sometimes what you do you are the cause of.

 

[elman]

I have none. I'm not the one trying to compare the two.

Comparing the two what? You indicated my definition was wrong but you won't give me your definition. What is that about?

 

[Gracchus]

There is no such thing as free will. Some folks believe there is, but they have to think that.

And how do you reach that conclusion?

And who forced you to write that? Did you do it out of exercising your free will?

You always have a choice.

We can choose as we like. What we like is predetermined by genetics and education.

We cannot choose what we don't like. We always choose what we want most. What we want most is determined by genetics and education.

This is why, despite what they say they believe, there are and always have been "Christian" murders, rapists, sadists, child molesters, and (gasp!) Republicans, even though "Christians" aren't supposed to descend to these moral abysses according to the teachings of Jesus. I think that is why Jesus enjoined us to forgive and to refrain from passing judgement. Of course the authority of Paul overrides that of Jesus in the minds and hearts of most "Christians".

But even Paul noted that he kept sinning:

KJV Romans 7:15-18

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

So it would seem there is no such thing as free will. Some of you won't believe me. Some of you have to cling to the illusion of your own moral superiority. That's all right. You can’t help it.