Free Will

[elman]

It says what it says: He knows it's wrong he does it anyway.

KJV Romans 7:15

It would seem there is no such a thing as free will.

KJV Romans 7:17

He says he doesn't do it! He doesn't choose it! It's printed right there. In your inerrant holy book.



There are consequence to our actions! That is different. Just claiming we have meaningful choices is begging the question. And I might point out that Christians sin, and seek to deny the consequence of their actions by claiming that Jesus will save them; but we all suffer the consequences of their actions, and we are not saved from them.

Claiming we have meaningful choice is not begging the question. It is the free will we are discussing. I am a little confused. I thought Buddists thought we had free will and could use it to reach enlightenment.

 

[levi501]

One of the things that cause me to do what I do is me, not stimulie or dna.

Saying it's just "you" is ridiculously simplistic. "You", in the context of your actions, are simply you're current state of mind at the time of said action. You're state of mind at the time is merely a serious of chemical impulses in your brain. Chemical impulses in your brain are a product genetic traits passed to you and stimuli you've processed from your environment.

 

[kedaman]

what do you mean?

I don't feel particularly threatened by most people.

 

[elman]

Saying it's just "you" is ridiculously simplistic. "You", in the context of your actions, are simply you're current state of mind at the time of said action. You're state of mind at the time is merely a serious of chemical impulses in your brain. Chemical impulses in your brain are a product genetic traits passed to you and stimuli you've processed from your environment.

My suspicion is that you know less about the brain and how it thinks than you think you do. However you spin it you make decisions for which you are responsible because you could have decided otherwise. I am more than chemical implulses. While I am a product of genetice traits and stimuli that is not the sum total of who I am.

 

[levi501]

My suspicion is that you know less about the brain and how it thinks than you think you do.

useless ad hominem.

However you spin it you make decisions for which you are responsible because you could have decided otherwise.

There are reasons why you make one choice over another, but you don't want to consider those reasons.

I am more than chemical implulses.

red herring.

While I am a product of genetice traits and stimuli that is not the sum total of who I am.

cause and effect my friend. I wish I was better at explaining it to you.
Causality and determinism are pretty simple ideas in any basic philosophy class.
Look at wikipedia.com to learn more.

every event has a cause that has a preceding cause. I'm sorry this is difficult stuff for ya.

 

[levi501]

I don't feel particularly threatened by most people.

that's the point... that's because there's laws to protect you.
Take away those laws and you'd feel more then a little threatened.

 

[Gracchus]

Claiming we have meaningful choice is not begging the question. It is the free will we are discussing.

I'm not sure I see the difference.

I am a little confused. I thought Buddists thought we had free will and could use it to reach enlightenment.

Ah! But when you attain enlightenment, your illusions are stripped away.

Nevertheless, it well may be that there are circumstances, where the prepared mind might make a decision that an unprepared mind would not. Still, there seem to be many whose mindset prohibits meaningful moral choices, for they are unable to admit choices exist.

For instance: KJV Matthew 5:42

Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Most Christians ignore this entirely. It is impossible. They can't do it. I can do it, but then I don't have very much more than what I need to survive. Though I always seem to have enough to spare a little. Many rich men have not that much.

OK. I admit that in some limited situations we may indeed be free to choose. But then we usually have to work at it. It takes practice and conviction to do the right thing. And to have a choice we must be able to consider the possibility that what is obviously the right thing might in truth not be the right thing after all. But there are many persons, in many situations, who really see no meaningful choice. They are driven by lust, greed, or fear to do what they have to do. They deserve our pity, and our mercy. That is why we ought not to judge and why we ought not to take vengeance.

 

[kedaman]

that's the point... that's because there's laws to protect you.
Take away those laws and you'd feel more then a little threatened.

Are you saying that laws exist to make you feel more secure?

 

[levi501]

Are you saying that laws exist to make you feel more secure?

no, laws are established because they serve some benefit to society.
What makes up society... well us, 'people'.

 

[kedaman]

What I still am missing is what I'm being protected from. The people around me aren't harming me in any way, and I don't see how the law prevents them therefrom.

 

[Romany]

What I still am missing is what I'm being protected from. The people around me aren't harming me in any way, and I don't see how the law prevents them therefrom.

Well, one of the purposes of the law is to discourage people from doing things that harm other people. For example, someone might be deterred from murdering you because they are afraid of getting caught and being given the death penalty or life in prison.

Romany

 

[kedaman]

Well, one of the purposes of the law is to discourage people from doing things that harm other people. For example, someone might be deterred from murdering you because they are afraid of getting caught and being given the death penalty or life in prison.

Romany

Are you saying we need the law to deterr us from murdering?

 

[elman]

useless ad hominem.


There are reasons why you make one choice over another, but you don't want to consider those reasons.



.

Of course there are reasons but we are still the one deciding what reasons are going to cause us to make which decision.

 

[elman]

"cause and effect my friend. I wish I was better at explaining it to you.
Causality and determinism are pretty simple ideas in any basic philosophy class.
Look at wikipedia.com to learn more."
But not true if the bottom line is you are forced to make the decisions you make.

"every event has a cause that has a preceding cause. I'm sorry this is difficult stuff for ya"
It is not that difficult. Yes every event has a cause and sometimes the cause is you exercise your free will and chose one option over another.